What is my scope for ?

[Stu1smartcookie]

So , after purchasing an st80 yesterday I was lucky enough to be able to use it late last night . It got me thinking , whilst I was freezing ! What can I actually do with this scope ? What really is it’s forte .. it’s an achromat .. so CA at high power will spoil to a certain extent views of bright objects ( although with a 25mm EP looking at the moon last night the view was free of CA ,and crystal clear ) .. but , why do people buy these scopes when there are more powerful scopes for not a lot more money.A 130p newt is only a few pounds more .. a small mak can be obtained for about 130 pounds . Are scopes really pigeon holed into categories or can they all do a bit of everything.. because at this rate I am going to end up with a dozen of them !! I’ve owned many scopes already and to be honest , when you are looking at a star , there is no difference in my mind . Sirius was splendid last night .. my 200p would not have shown it any better . Views of stars do not benefit using high magnification ( unless you are trying to split a double ) but the appearance usually remains the same . Of course planets are a different matter , as viewing benefits from a high magnification. We are constantly  told there is not one scope that will do everything maybe the rhetoric should be , there is not one scope that does everything well . For experienced members on here this might be a pointless post , but , any discussion actually helps new members , so , any thoughts are welcome . 
Stu 

[Nik271]

An 80mm refractor should be excellent for wide field starry views. Think of the open clusters, notably the Double cluster, Beehive, Pleiades, Andromeda.

Advantages I can think of: very easy to set up, easy to travel with, practically no cool down time, the next step in convenience and magnification from binoculars.

A bigger scope will show dimmer object but likely if will be heavier, bulkier and have a narrower field of view.

From what I understand it's an excellent guide-scope as well if you plan to do astrophotography in the future. And can be used for some imaging as a main scope I suppose if you can live with the CA.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Nik271
typos

[W0nderste]

Jeepers Stu, how many scopes have you bought in the last few months?  Lol

although I'm also looking to get a 72/80 ED.......

[Nyctimene]

You've just given one answer in the other thread ("On Average,...")  -  "you really have to grasp the moment", and nothing, except binoculars, is, IMO, better suited for such minutes than a small frac on a AltAz mount. My vintage 80/400 FH Vixen frac, on a tripod with fluid head, is set up within one minute with no cooling down time; and I use it for solar white light, nightly for comets, star fields, open clusters, gaseous nebulas (with the appropriate filters), and moon views. Moreover, it's an excellent travel scope. With it's wide field views, it is complementary to my larger dobs. I never thought of selling my little companion - the only frac in my collection.

Stephan

[wibblefish]

I have a 90mm refractor thats f7.3 so fairly similar. I am a novice and spent about £200 on it (and tripod). I got it as my first telescope mostly because it was a similar price to the Mak102 I was looking at but was actually in stock.

After several months (though alas not many nights) with the telescope I can honestly say I am happy I got it over the Mak.

It has practically zero cooldown so I can pop out whenever there is a small cloud break. It is light and portable so I can easily position it around the garden and its easy to store in the garage. 
 

I have found it excels at wide, lower power views of constellations and star clusters but I have been able to dabble in other areas. Ive seen some of the M list of DSO though they can be a challenge but that might also be because I am still learning to “see”. Currently I am working on doubles though there is a limit there are plenty that work nicely so far (and frustrations!). Views of the moon are good as well as Mars when the seeing is good.

Its true though it wont be able to do everything but its fun finding the limits. CA works against me on some brighter stars (Sirius / Rigel) and the moon shows minor CA without a moon filter at high mag but overall my eye isnt to sensitive maybe because I have no experience with other telescopes!

 

Its true though spend more, more apeture etc but for someone coming into the hobby (especially with no idea of different telescopes) you want to maybe reign in the initial outlay or have something you just use and dont have to maintain to hard or spend time setting up smaller refractors are an easy answer I guess.

Also saves some money towards the multitude of upgrades (he says having spent more than telescope cost at this point).

Edited January 31, 2021 by wibblefish

[Stu1smartcookie]

14 minutes ago, W0nderste said:

Jeepers Stu, how many scopes have you bought in the last few months?  Lol

although I'm also looking to get a 72/80 ED.......

Hi Steve .. I doubt I will ever stop lol . 

[KP82]

The ST80 is meant to be a widefield scope for open clusters, star fields along the milky way and general low power sweeping. It's light and cheap, requires zero cooldown, etc.

It is true that no one scope that can do everything well. But if you ask me what scope that can do a bit of everything (assuming I'm only allowed one scope), my answer would be either a 4" f/7 ED refractor or a 6" f/5 newt.

[Neil H]

1 hour ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

Hi Steve .. I doubt I will ever stop lol . 

It's a sickness Stu and sorry no cure for it 

[Stu]

Great post @Stu1smartcookie.

As has been said, the ST80 is excellent for low power, widefield views of open clusters and the Milky Way. It will also be fine for mid powers, but is likely to struggle at higher powers due to CA and SA (spherical abberation) which can rob the view of fine detail. They are affordable and very portable so you are also more likely to take them around with you and have the benefit of always having a scope there ready to go.

The differences in scopes often come out at higher powers and with excellent seeing conditions. The Moon may look ok at low power, but up that to x200 or more to try to spot a difficult feature and that’s where a decent 4” apo for example will pull ahead (quite rightly given the cost difference).

That doesn’t mean that cheap scopes are no good! I have a Heritage 130p and a 150p and am really impressed with them optically, despite the low cost. With decent eyepieces, I’ve been able to split quite challenging doubles, and the additional resolution over my 100mm apos has meant that the view does sometimes beat the more expensive scope. Hard to accept having paid so much cash for a beautiful apo, but no point pretending otherwise.

[Stu1smartcookie]

 Regarding EPs .. that’s a subject I have never ventured into .. most of my EPs are standard fare .. I’ve seen a wide variation of prices and really am lost in this case . A decent EP can raise the bar of a cheap scope , as can a good focuser . Of course an achromat will always be an achromat and always have limitations but making the best of a budget scope gives great satisfaction . Lol it’s a bit like “pimp my scope”. I would like to get another Refractor for planets but of course I’m also entering into Mak and SCT territory ... hey @WOnderste  .. where  is my omni 127 lol 😂 

[W0nderste]

14 minutes ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

 Regarding EPs .. that’s a subject I have never ventured into .. most of my EPs are standard fare .. I’ve seen a wide variation of prices and really am lost in this case . A decent EP can raise the bar of a cheap scope , as can a good focuser . Of course an achromat will always be an achromat and always have limitations but making the best of a budget scope gives great satisfaction . Lol it’s a bit like “pimp my scope”. I would like to get another Refractor for planets but of course I’m also entering into Mak and SCT territory ... hey @WOnderste  .. where  is my omni 127 lol 😂 

I wonder what the record is for the same scope being sold between 2 people??

perhaps we could 'time-share' it?

 

[Stu]

40 minutes ago, W0nderste said:

I wonder what the record is for the same scope being sold between 2 people??

perhaps we could 'time-share' it?

 

Or even for buying the same scope more than once!

I’ve had....

3 x 120ED

3 x Televue Genesis

2 x OO VX10L

2 x OO VX12L

2 x Vixen 80M

2 x Vixen FL102S 

I know, complete madness but in some ways it’s just like renting them for a while. I keep them while they suit my needs then sell on.

Of these, I’ve got a Genesis and a Vixen Fluorite still and hope to keep hold of them.

 

[Stu1smartcookie]

Madness must be in the name stu lol 

[Carbon Brush]

I got a lot of enjoyment some years ago from the big brother, the ST102. I have also owned an ST80.

As a very portable all rounder, the ST80 is good. Not a lot of money to tie up/lose either.
You can use it land or sky, eyepiece or camera.
At home it is light enough to leave with the tripod/mount assembled and be outside quickly.
It light small and light enough to take on a holiday flight (remember those?).

For those who have to negotiate scope purchase with 'I didn't know it was going to be the size of the wheelie bin' or 'that cost more than the car' -
Well you can't go wrong.

It provides a good introduction to see how you get on with freezing outside, setting up, coping with lght pollution, wanting better views of planets, or brightening faint fuzzies.

Thats my take on it

 

[Stu1smartcookie]

The way I am going is to probably have three scopes .. frac, newt and Mak or sct ... the trick  is to  not let  aperture fever take over .Bit  It’s almost inevitable that buying a small scope makes you wonder if getting that 120mm frac just to compliment your little scope makes a perfect match and that  leads to 4, 5 and 6 scopes ! I really do love the large newt that I have but I can see me getting much more use out of the ST80 or any other small scope . Lol I already want to upgrade the focuser !!! And there is nothing wrong with the original one ! Interestingly I watched a YT post regarding the best filter to use with an achromat .. which is the baader semi apo filter .. has anyone else used one of those ? 

[Tiny Clanger]

7 hours ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

So , after purchasing an st80 yesterday I was lucky enough to be able to use it late last night . It got me thinking , whilst I was freezing ! What can I actually do with this scope ? What really is it’s forte .. it’s an achromat .. so CA at high power will spoil to a certain extent views of bright objects ( although with a 25mm EP looking at the moon last night the view was free of CA ,and crystal clear ) .. but , why do people buy these scopes when there are more powerful scopes for not a lot more money.A 130p newt is only a few pounds more .. a small mak can be obtained for about 130 pounds . Are scopes really pigeon holed into categories or can they all do a bit of everything.. because at this rate I am going to end up with a dozen of them !! I’ve owned many scopes already and to be honest , when you are looking at a star , there is no difference in my mind . Sirius was splendid last night .. my 200p would not have shown it any better . Views of stars do not benefit using high magnification ( unless you are trying to split a double ) but the appearance usually remains the same . Of course planets are a different matter , as viewing benefits from a high magnification. We are constantly  told there is not one scope that will do everything maybe the rhetoric should be , there is not one scope that does everything well . For experienced members on here this might be a pointless post , but , any discussion actually helps new members , so , any thoughts are welcome . 
Stu 

I guess I'm sort of an intermediate member on here , not quite a beginner, but with some appreciation of the Dunning–Kruger effect, so in no way would I consider myself an expert, or give dogmatic replies on anything that is not a simple fact. Personally, my extensive reading before digging into my savings to buy a second 'scope bought me to the conclusion that every 'scope can do most things OK, but all  have jobs they are particularly good at. As the OP says, "there is not one scope that does everything well"

Best analogy I can come up with is hand saws : I'm a very amateur DIY er, but have , let's see , a cheap Wickes coarse tooth panel saw, a cheap tenon saw , a small decent Stanley 'toolbox' fine tooth short panel saw, a very high quality folding pruning saw , various saw blades for stanley knives, and a few mini hacksaws.

Last use of a saw I made was chopping 5cm off the bottom of my xmas tree , which was a big thing with a substantial trunk. thicker than my arm. In theory any of the saws might have done the job (altho' the tenon saw and hacksaw would have had problems due to the thickness of their thick spines) So, toolbox saw, pruning saw or panel saw ? If I'd not had them all to choose from, any one would have worked OK, but for speed, ease and not getting an expensive saw gunged up with pine sap, coarse panel saw it was. Other tasks need finer toothed cuts, less space for the blade to go back and forth, different set and hardness of teeth, more precision. Most saws can do most things, but choosing a saw with the right characteristics gives better, easier results.

So, as long as you look at telescopes as tools , it's not hard to justify buying one which has a specific ability you prize and will use. That's what I told myself when I bought the little narrow view, low aperture mak to work beside the little wide view, 150mm aperture dob anyway 🙂

Back to saws :I was in a situation a while back where my folding pruning saw ( a Bahco Laplander, cost about £30) got compared while doing some pruning with a friends wilco folding saw (£5). The upshot of which was they pounced on my saw and used it exclusively instead of theirs until I wrestled it back off them. Up 'till then their saw had seemed fine, but when directly compared, the Bahco was so much better ...  I suppose that could be an analogy for the cheap/expensive refractor thing !

Something which seems counter intuitive about telescope buying if you haven't studied the subject is that paying more does not necessarily get you a more versatile telescope ,what it gives is either a better quality telescope and/or a bigger aperture telescope. Which makes it extra difficult when absolute beginners say (often after being prompted , because they didn't realize it was relevant) they 'want to see everything'

£400- £500 to spend for visual observing ? How about a 102 mak on an altaz4 with steel tripod, and a small wide field refractor or a 130 or 150  heritage dob , any of which could be used on the nice steady altaz  ? Still got enough budget left for a better EP or two and a copy of Turn Left at  Orion and you are set for observing anything.

But many would look at what is available in a single attractive and impressive looking package and prefer to go for something excitingly tech-y like the Celestron NexStar 130 SLT for £450 or Celestron NexStar 4SE for £500.

Heather

[Marc1964]

It's a good thing that there are virtually no relatively inexpensive 'scopes to be had in the UK because I reckon I would have bought at least two.. 😁 

I have an Evostar 90/910 on an az3 with two cheap Celestron Omni plossl lenses. I've really enjoyed the viewing and it's ability to get the orion nebula, split Rigel and a few other stars etc. It is however big and bulky to carry around and I know there have been times when I have not gone out because I can't face the 15 minutes of walking with my gear to the darker fields to view. 

A smaller refractor, a 90/500 would be perfect but hard to find. Teleskop Express have an interesting black Long Perng in stock, but I am hesitant to pull the trigger as customs costs are unclear right now.

I thought about getting a dobson (Tiny Clanger malign influence) and spent a long time thinking how I could make a 5" or 6" short dobson work with needing to be carried. Needless to say sanity has prevailed and this is off the list. 

I have considered a 90, 100, 127 mak but been put off by narrow field of view. I want to star hop my way round the sky and learn about what is above me... 

I have nearly bought at least one of these and only one of them really meets my needs at the moment, and is the right tool for the job. I want a wider FoV than the 90/910 and want light and compact. The short refractor wins at the moment , but I have no doubt that the others will appear at some stage when I decide I want something different or I get fed up and impulse buy a dobson and curse myself whenever I have to transport the thing either by car or walking... 😁 😁 😁 

[Tiny Clanger]

2 hours ago, Marc1964 said:

II thought about getting a dobson (Tiny Clanger malign influence) and spent a long time thinking how I could make a 5" or 6" short dobson work with needing to be carried. Needless to say sanity has prevailed and this is off the list.

Who, me ? Surely not ! 😇

I'd not want to carry the heritage 150 dob very far either : it's not particularly heavy, but it is a bit unwieldy. I've never seen a heritage 130 in person, so couldn't comment on how easy one of those would be to carry for 15 min.s.  Had you thought of a wheelbarrow or the sort of small hand truck people buy for carting camping or fishing kit around ? Or a child's buggy ! Wrap a heritage dob in a blanket and take it for a walk ...

Sanity is overrated in my opinion .

[Marc1964]

7 hours ago, Tiny Clanger said:

Who, me ? Surely not ! 😇

I'd not want to carry the heritage 150 dob very far either : it's not particularly heavy, but it is a bit unwieldy. I've never seen a heritage 130 in person, so couldn't comment on how easy one of those would be to carry for 15 min.s.  Had you thought of a wheelbarrow or the sort of small hand truck people buy for carting camping or fishing kit around ? Or a child's buggy ! Wrap a heritage dob in a blanket and take it for a walk ...

Sanity is overrated in my opinion .

@Tiny Clanger Are you a founding member of the 'Dobsonian Telescope Liberation Front' perchance?

I actually did look into a small trolley of some sort but TBH didn't see anything that would carry the Bresser Messier 6" table top mount or the planetary securely without shaking. That would be bad for the scope and the idea of nightly collimation.... I know Bresser do a handle which is useful, but again it's either the base or finding a good support which is key.

I like the lovely contrasty image that a refractor gives and whilst I am well aware that for the price of a decent small refractor I could have a damn good dobson, the best telescope is the one you use the most, and I know, sadly, that no matter how good a small dobson is, I would use a small refractor more. 

This year the refractor. Next year a Mak 127.... 😁 

[wibblefish]

35 minutes ago, Marc1964 said:

@Tiny Clanger Are you a founding member of the 'Dobsonian Telescope Liberation Front' perchance?

I actually did look into a small trolley of some sort but TBH didn't see anything that would carry the Bresser Messier 6" table top mount or the planetary securely without shaking. That would be bad for the scope and the idea of nightly collimation.... I know Bresser do a handle which is useful, but again it's either the base or finding a good support which is key.

I like the lovely contrasty image that a refractor gives and whilst I am well aware that for the price of a decent small refractor I could have a damn good dobson, the best telescope is the one you use the most, and I know, sadly, that no matter how good a small dobson is, I would use a small refractor more. 

This year the refractor. Next year a Mak 127.... 😁 

I have a refractor atm, 90/660 which is all setup to jump out as soon as there is any cloud break but I do keep looking at either a Mak 127 or maybe something like a classical cassegrain which seems to sound similar to a Mak but without the huge cooldown time but I need to read more into them.

I can justify upgrades to my current scope still at present (at least to myself) and I am setting myself the goal of not buying a new one till I am at least 1 if not 2 years into the hobby 😛 

[Marc1964]

24 minutes ago, wibblefish said:

have a refractor atm, 90/66

Yes, I read somewhere in the forum that you had a Skywatcher I believe? I am thinking of the Bresser Messier AR-102S/600 version which supposedly has better build quality... However am also tempted by the AR-102S/460 which has an element of ED glass which is supposed to help with reducing CA to the equivalent of an F7 scope. Also tempted as I said above by a Long Pern but buying from EU and not understanding exactly how much custom charges are is putting me off somewhat! 

[Stu1smartcookie]

4 minutes ago, Marc1964 said:

am also tempted by the AR-102S/460 which has an element of ED glass

I have briefly had one of those ... apart from the dreadful finder ( which , if you change you will also need a different finder shoe) it was a really nice little scope . In fact i would have bought one of those instead of my ST80 IF i could hove found one . I think the ED glass was a bit "over blown " ( pun intended ) if you want my opinion , but as i say it was great for a bit of wide field viewing . It is , however well over twice the price of ST80 and because its such a short tube you really do not gain too much over the ST80 , viewing wise . Bresser do make nice scopes though , that really look the part . 

[wibblefish]

16 minutes ago, Marc1964 said:

Yes, I read somewhere in the forum that you had a Skywatcher I believe? I am thinking of the Bresser Messier AR-102S/600 version which supposedly has better build quality... However am also tempted by the AR-102S/460 which has an element of ED glass which is supposed to help with reducing CA to the equivalent of an F7 scope. Also tempted as I said above by a Long Pern but buying from EU and not understanding exactly how much custom charges are is putting me off somewhat! 

Yeah Evostar 90/660 took a bit of a punt buying it as no reviews but it seems fairly ok at least for me as a beginner I haven't seen it reviewed anywhere by someone who knows what they are looking at though so it'd be interesting to see what others with more experience think.

There is chromatic aberration though I don't find it to bad except on very bright objects under high magnification (though if its the moon a moon filter seems to fix it well enough). It also has field curvature at the edges but again that's very much a short tube thing it seems.  

The Skywatcher is a F7 scope if that helps but I have looked at Bressers before and I liked the look of the 127/635 or 127/1200 though I have no idea of the performance but I expect the hop from 90ish mm to nearly 130 would produce better images but I am trying not to get hung up on chasing new telescopes already!

[Marc1964]

7 minutes ago, wibblefish said:

I am trying not to get hung up on chasing new telescopes already!

Very sensible! I have had my 90/910 for two year now and bought it with an AZ3 mount for the princely sum of £60. I wanted to be sure that it would be used, and it has. I therefore feel OK about looking at alternatives/addition... 😁 

[wibblefish]

7 minutes ago, Marc1964 said:

Very sensible! I have had my 90/910 for two year now and bought it with an AZ3 mount for the princely sum of £60. I wanted to be sure that it would be used, and it has. I therefore feel OK about looking at alternatives/addition... 😁 

Good work on the price mine was alot more than that! With the shortube and the tripod extended I can get it through the two doors from my garage to outside (just!) if I get anything bigger than this then I'll have to wheel it out via the garage front door and navigate the rickety side gate so atm its perfectly sized for grab and go lol 

Edited February 1, 2021 by wibblefish