DSLR for planet images

[varius21]

Hello again. I know I ask too much but I've been searching on here so much and I got confused.
So I am looking to pair a DSLR with my 8" dobs for planetary images (& short vids to stack frames).
I am looking on ebay for something under £250 that possibly comes with a lens (for general use as well...

Any suggestions for something decent, used at the mentioned price range?
I appreciate all the help I am getting from all you nice people in here, you've been extremely helpful and I love how this community is so nice!

Vasilis

 

P.S. I certainly don’t expect anyone to go searching for me. I am only looking for suggestions, what kind of camera I should look for.

Edited December 29, 2020 by varius21

[smashing]

37 minutes ago, varius21 said:

Hello again. I know I ask too much but I've been searching on here so much and I got confused.
So I am looking to pair a DSLR with my 8" dobs for planetary images (& short vids to stack frames).
I am looking on ebay for something under £250 that possibly comes with a lens (for general use as well...

Any suggestions for something decent, used at the mentioned price range?
I appreciate all the help I am getting from all you nice people in here, you've been extremely helpful and I love how this community is so nice!

Vasilis

 

P.S. I certainly don’t expect anyone to go searching for me. I am only looking for suggestions, what kind of camera I should look for.

I think ZWO have some decent planetary cameras (check the FLO site) in that price range that's probably better than a DSLR in the same price range, I'm not sure what can be done with a dob mind you but that's just because I don't really do planetary stuff.

[smashing]

Something like this maybe 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi224mc-usb-3-colour-camera.html

[varius21]

Thank you @smashing! A zwo webcam would need me to use my laptop though, right?

[smashing]

Just now, varius21 said:

Thank you @smashing! A zwo webcam would need me to use my laptop though, right?

Yes it would, although if you have a laptop already then running it for a few minutes or so without a mains power supply to get some video may work i.e. it would still be portable

[vlaiv]

Does your dob have tracking (is it goto version)?

If not, I'm afraid that you won't do much planetary imaging with it ...

Even if you do have tracking mount - DSLR camera is not the best for planetary imaging.

For good results with planetary imaging, you want very short exposures - like less than 10ms exposures and you want to a lot of them, and I mean a lot - tens of thousands of frames are quite common per single video.

DSLR cameras have three problems:

- Large pixel size

- Video often limited to 30fps

- Video is recorded using compression

If you use regular DSLR with say 4.3µm pixel size - then Jupiter when largest in the sky will be only 60 pixels across. Your 8" f/6 telescope has diffraction limited field with radius of 2.4mm, so you can shoot planets only in this central zone. Outside of this zone scope will suffer from too much coma for planetary imaging.

If you try drift method - where you let planet drift thru the FOV and you record it during that time - you will only have about 50 seconds of video. With 30fps - that makes 1500 frames - not nearly enough for serious image - not to mention that you will have to center planet and let it drift over the center of the FOV with your camera attached (not impossible but not quite walk in the park either).

In reality you want dedicated planetary camera and lap top and of course tracking mount.

This is good starter planetary camera:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi120mc-s-usb-3-colour-camera.html

You'll also need barlow - about x2.5 so get x2 barlow and dial in sensor distance.

You'll need laptop with SSD and USB3.0 (well, you can still work with laptop with regular HDD and USB2.0 - its just that these are standard these days and they will improve things).

If you don't have tracking - look at equatorial platform for dobsonian telescopes.

[varius21]

11 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

Does your dob have tracking (is it goto version)?

If not, I'm afraid that you won't do much planetary imaging with it ...

Even if you do have tracking mount - DSLR camera is not the best for planetary imaging.

For good results with planetary imaging, you want very short exposures - like less than 10ms exposures and you want to a lot of them, and I mean a lot - tens of thousands of frames are quite common per single video.

DSLR cameras have three problems:

- Large pixel size

- Video often limited to 30fps

- Video is recorded using compression

If you use regular DSLR with say 4.3µm pixel size - then Jupiter when largest in the sky will be only 60 pixels across. Your 8" f/6 telescope has diffraction limited field with radius of 2.4mm, so you can shoot planets only in this central zone. Outside of this zone scope will suffer from too much coma for planetary imaging.

If you try drift method - where you let planet drift thru the FOV and you record it during that time - you will only have about 50 seconds of video. With 30fps - that makes 1500 frames - not nearly enough for serious image - not to mention that you will have to center planet and let it drift over the center of the FOV with your camera attached (not impossible but not quite walk in the park either).

In reality you want dedicated planetary camera and lap top and of course tracking mount.

This is good starter planetary camera:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi120mc-s-usb-3-colour-camera.html

You'll also need barlow - about x2.5 so get x2 barlow and dial in sensor distance.

You'll need laptop with SSD and USB3.0 (well, you can still work with laptop with regular HDD and USB2.0 - its just that these are standard these days and they will improve things).

If you don't have tracking - look at equatorial platform for dobsonian telescopes.

Thank you once again! I should be paying you for all the advice you’ve been giving me. I can’t say that I am not disappointed that I can’t even take a decent photo of a planet with my dobs without a go-to mount though. 😕 

[vlaiv]

Just now, varius21 said:

Thank you once again! I should be paying you for all the advice you’ve been giving me. I can’t say that I am not disappointed that I can’t even take a decent photo of a planet with my dobs without a go-to mount though. 😕 

You don't need goto to do it - you need a tracking mount.

If you are skilled at DIY - you can make equatorial platform yourself rather easily. It even won't be much expensive. I'll find you some links to check out for that.

https://photographingspace.com/diy-equatorial-platform-pictures/

https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/advice/build-a-dobsonian-equatorial-platform/

These are just few first hits on google. You can find much more resources on the topic - just google DIY equatorial platform.

If you don't want to DIY - you can purchase one, but these aren't cheap like DIY solutions. Check these out for example:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p12059_Asterion-Ecliptica-Light-50---Platform-for-6--to-10--Dobsonians---47--to-53--Latitude.html

[varius21]

Now, to be honest with you... that's exactly what I needed in my life! A DIY project of something exciting that will save me money and help me do stuff I like!
I do have tools thanks to my home improvement projects (different kinds of saws etc) and now I will do plenty of research because I need to learn quite a lot about the way it will work in order to build it correctly.
This should work for DSO too, right?

[Brutha]

If you are looking for a DSLR for general use as well, you could look for a cheap 2nd hand Canon 550D (T2i) on EBay, this should come in under your limit I think.

It has the ability to do a 60fps video recording of the central 640x480 portion of the sensor, and i saw some decent planetary images created from that. I tried it with my 8se and a 2x Barlow - was rubbish seeing though and I was learning my way round things so didn’t achieve much! Will try again next time I get a clear night though.

[Happysolderer]

I use a DSLR for my moon pictures. ( The one I have on here for example) attached to my 8" dob.

The camera I have is a Nikon D3100, it was an eBay purchase. It cost £100. But that didn't include a lens. I have used it on all of my scopes so far with varying degrees of success. 

I did have an issue getting it to focus on my 8" dob, but after a little research I just moved the primary closer to the secondary  (about 5mm) and it cured it. 

I asked at a local Astronomy shop and they recommended a Celestron neximage 5. Apparently it's the only camera I'd ever need. 

I wouldn't recommend it. And although it's local, I won't be going back. 

As a newbie myself, and after all the mistakes (some quite expensive) I've made, rushing in buying one person's recommendation, etc the best I can say is research it. Have a clear idea on what you want to see or photograph. And go from there.

[vlaiv]

10 hours ago, varius21 said:

This should work for DSO too, right?

It can work, but probably not as well as you would expect.

With planetary imaging, exposures are kept really short to freeze the seeing (lucky imaging). This means that you don't need very precise tracking as short exposures will not create much motion blur from mismatched tracking and sidereal speeds.

On the other side - that is extremely important for DSO astrophotography - since exposures are kept long, tracking needs to be perfect. People doing long exposure astrophotography use guiding for that reason - active system that tracks the star and issues corrections to mount position on any slight deviation detected.

EQ platform will not be able to track that precise due to mechanical issues. It tracks perfectly for visual and good enough for planetary - where it is only important to keep the planet inside FOV of small camera (above few mm around optical axis that are diffraction limited / coma free).

What you could do is try lucky DSO imaging. Some people had success with this approach, but it is demanding technique. It is done by taking thousands of images with short exposures - like 1-2s exposures. This will limit issues with poor tracking as there won't be enough time to develop significant motion blur (warped stars). In the end, you select the best frames - ones with round stars and stack those.

Problem is that you need larger dedicated astro camera to do that - and that is again $$$.

You could try with DSLR, but you would need to lock the mirror and attach camera to laptop and use external power supply. If you do it usual way - you won't have enough room on memory card, you'll quickly cause mechanical fatigue as you'll do several thousand shots each session and I'm not sure battery can handle more than few hundred exposures.

Another thing that would be worth a try with EQ platform would be EEVA.

I'm toying with idea to make a system where you attach your mobile phone to the eyepiece and then use laptop and stream series of short exposures from phone to laptop which you then stack and observe in near real time. Check out EEVA section of SGL for further info.

Good thing with this approach is that you can save your "observation" and then do further processing to turn it into better looking image.

[Cosmic Geoff]

3 hours ago, Happysolderer said:

I asked at a local Astronomy shop and they recommended a Celestron neximage 5. Apparently it's the only camera I'd ever need. 

I wouldn't recommend it. And although it's local, I won't be going back. 

That might be an over-reaction. This is the right kind of camera for planetary imaging (unlike a DSLR) and this model was much favoured for planetary imaging a while ago though one does not hear so much about it now.

[Happysolderer]

1 minute ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

That might be an over-reaction. This is the right kind of camera for planetary imaging (unlike a DSLR) and this model was much favoured for planetary imaging a while ago though one does not hear so much about it now.

I've contacted them about a few other things as well, including buying other things from them. All I get is "sorry can't help"

I would of bought my new mount from them, the EQ6-R PRO, but the gentleman was so disinterested I went to FLO instead.

[fifeskies]

+1 for how helpful FLO are

They will give honest advice both pre and post purchase , and their prices are very good as well.

Makes all the difference to find a retailer who is enthusiastic about their products and cares about their customers experience.

[happy-kat]

11 hours ago, varius21 said:

Now, to be honest with you... that's exactly what I needed in my life! A DIY project of something exciting that will save me money and help me do stuff I like!

Maybe you have an existing webcam knocking around, a couple modifications could see you trying it out using your dob on the Moon. To modify an existing old webcam you would be looking at removing the lens, any LED lights and fitting a nose cone, such as a bit of 25mm plumbing pipe.

[MARS1960]

13 hours ago, varius21 said:

Hello again. I know I ask too much but I've been searching on here so much and I got confused.
So I am looking to pair a DSLR with my 8" dobs for planetary images (& short vids to stack frames).
I am looking on ebay for something under £250 that possibly comes with a lens (for general use as well...

Any suggestions for something decent, used at the mentioned price range?
I appreciate all the help I am getting from all you nice people in here, you've been extremely helpful and I love how this community is so nice!

Vasilis

 

P.S. I certainly don’t expect anyone to go searching for me. I am only looking for suggestions, what kind of camera I should look for.

There is a perfectly good ZWO ASI120mc in the classifieds for under £100, they are great Lunar/Planetary beginner cameras.

I gave up trying with my 600D so bought one from FLO then the next day saw the used one advertised on here 😂.

Edited December 30, 2020 by MARS1960

[Peter_D]

OP, I have a used Canon Eos 60D that I've used quite successfully for lunar imaging with my 6SE. I also used it this year for planetary imaging. Looking back, I probably should have held off buying it and bought a 'proper' planetary cam. What I will say is if funds are tight, you can get ok results from the (few) models that have proper crop mode video.

[vlaiv]

Very good point by @happy-kat

You can get planetary imaging camera for fraction of the cost. This is how I did my first planetary images. I used Logitech C270. Just removed front lens and used 32mm PVC pipe sanded down to 1.25" as nosepiece.

Only problem with web cameras is that they work on USB2.0 standard and because there is lot of data to be streamed for HD (1280x720) at 30fps - they always use compression. This is not good for planetary imaging and causes blur issues (and other artifacts).

Here are some examples that I've done with Logitech C270 camera:

And I here are some that I've done with ASI120 equivalent camera (QHY5IILc that I got shortly after) - same scope:

You can see that modified web cam does have some issues with sharpness due to compression - but it can still achieve very good results and for fraction of the cost.

[Peter_D]

3 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

Very good point by @happy-kat

You can get planetary imaging camera for fraction of the cost. This is how I did my first planetary images. I used Logitech C270. Just removed front lens and used 32mm PVC pipe sanded down to 1.25" as nosepiece.

Only problem with web cameras is that they work on USB2.0 standard and because there is lot of data to be streamed for HD (1280x720) at 30fps - they always use compression. This is not good for planetary imaging and causes blur issues (and other artifacts).

Here are some examples that I've done with Logitech C270 camera:

And I here are some that I've done with ASI120 equivalent camera (QHY5IILc that I got shortly after) - same scope:

You can see that modified web cam does have some issues with sharpness due to compression - but it can still achieve very good results and for fraction of the cost.

Don't want to derail the thread but your video animation of Jupiter is excellent - how long did you have to capture to produce it?

[vlaiv]

26 minutes ago, Peter_D said:

Don't want to derail the thread but your video animation of Jupiter is excellent - how long did you have to capture to produce it?

It was rather long time ago (about 5 years) so I don't remember capture details, but I'll try to best describe conditions.

I was using SW 130/900 newtonian on EQ2 mount with simple tracking motor (DC one with potentiometer). I remember having trouble of "dialing in" proper speed and I often had to issue corrections in speed in order to keep the planet in FOV (every few minutes would planet drift from 640x480 FOV and I needed to tweak tracking speed in order for that not to happen).

I usually did 2-3 minute video per image back then (this has not changed much - I now do 5 minute ones for smaller scopes) and this animation contains 16 frames - but it is "forward then back" type, so really there might be total of 9 frames of forward motion.

That is max of half an hour of imaging, and I was going to say - I probably did not spend more than hour or two on the whole thing.

I'd say - about half an hour to 40 minutes of imaging.

Edited December 30, 2020 by vlaiv

[Peter_D]

5 hours ago, Happysolderer said:

I use a DSLR for my moon pictures. ( The one I have on here for example) attached to my 8" dob.

The camera I have is a Nikon D3100, it was an eBay purchase. It cost £100. But that didn't include a lens. I have used it on all of my scopes so far with varying degrees of success. 

I did have an issue getting it to focus on my 8" dob, but after a little research I just moved the primary closer to the secondary  (about 5mm) and it cured it. 

I asked at a local Astronomy shop and they recommended a Celestron neximage 5. Apparently it's the only camera I'd ever need. 

I wouldn't recommend it. And although it's local, I won't be going back. 

As a newbie myself, and after all the mistakes (some quite expensive) I've made, rushing in buying one person's recommendation, etc the best I can say is research it. Have a clear idea on what you want to see or photograph. And go from there.

If a product was ever sold on Amazon, you can see when it was first available there and it gives a good indication of how old the technology is.  Looking at the Neximage 5, it was first listed in mid 2012. Just gives you more information when you are looking to buy.

[varius21]

Thank you everyone for your tips.  ❤️
With everything everyone is saying in here I am leaning towards Asi224mc

am I right in doing so? 

[vlaiv]

30 minutes ago, varius21 said:

Thank you everyone for your tips.  ❤️
With everything everyone is saying in here I am leaning towards Asi224mc

am I right in doing so? 

Probably the best planetary camera.

There are three things that are essential when choosing planetary camera:

1. low read noise

2. high quantum efficiency

3. fast FPS

ASI224mc has it all, and it is ahead of most other cameras with respect to these three characteristics.

[Owmuchonomy]

2 hours ago, varius21 said:

Thank you everyone for your tips.  ❤️
With everything everyone is saying in here I am leaning towards Asi224mc

am I right in doing so? 

If you want to do colour planetary imaging then yes.  However, two more things to consider:

1) With the exception of Mars (which is getting much smaller by the day) the other juicy targets are not very well placed at all.  So the opportunities to image are somewhat limited for a few years.  Jupiter improves gradually over the next 3 years.

2) Your Dob is about f/6 I believe.  If so, you will need at least a 2.5x Powermate or decent Barlow to get the required image scale.  A rough approximation is to multiply the pixel size of the camera by 4 or 5 to see what f/ you will require.

Regarding DSLRs the advice above is very good.  The correct parameters are hard to find; i.e., fast video frame rate and true video crop mode (1:1).  A 550D does it or a 60D too.  In your shoes I would get an ASI 290 mono camera and play with imaging the Moon or Venus to get used to planetary imaging.  If you can get one pre-loved, all the better.  They retain their value too.  Your biggest problem will be finding and staying on the target.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Owmuchonomy