Confused about constellations 🤔

[Dannomiss]

Sorry for another question guys and girls. But I'm trying to get my head around the constellations and it's confusing me. The constellations seem to look different depending where you view them, in a book, on an app etc. 

In the sky map it looks one way but in the 2020 philips stargazing book it looks different - which for a newbie is confusing because I'm trying to find the stars and link them together. From what I've read m13 nebula cluster is in the hercules constellation, which I'm Hoping I can view when new scope arrives, but if I can't even make out the constellations this is going to get very confusing. 

Any help would be appreciated 

Thanks so much

[Kyle Allen]

Some apps/websites seem to draw them differently for some reason but I don’t know why this is. I always see Hercules drawn as the second picture shows it. If you are interested in finding M13, it’s not really necessary to know the whole Hercules constellation - just identify the four stars that make up the Keystone asterism. You can find it by going two thirds of the way from Arcturus to Vega 😀

[Craney]

If I'm reading the situation correctly, 

(1)  then there seems to be a difference with the 'artistry'  of drawing the figure of Hercules.... which is a result of the human brain interpreting patterns differently.

(2) Also, the time of night you are observing will change the 'appearance.'

Ans(1)

I always  'see' Hercules as in the  second diagram.  M13 (globular cluster)  is on the right side of his 'chest' as we look. .... so his Head would be where the 'K' is.

The first diagram will put this on its head... so to speak (!!).... and muddles it up,  you will have to force yourself  to re-see the original configuration

..... although in the night sky, the stars are all where they should be...with no confusing lines. 

Ans(2)

Also remember that from high Northern latitudes,  during the night  Hercules will rise in the East  ( body almost horizontal using your second diagram) , gain altitude until at his highest  (due South)  his body will be  aligned North-South.   As  dawn comes, he will have rotated over to become horizontal again but the other way around.   The stars have not moved with respect to each other, only with respect to your position on a rotating Earth.      Think about how the horns of a crescent Moon change orientation as the night progresses.

Download a program like Stellarium (its free)  and toggle the constellations button to see what the figurative line patterns are,  and then what you actually see.    Then hit the 'speed-up' button and see what happens throughout the night.

Hope this helps.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Craney

[SteveWolves]

Get yourself a planisphere and learn the relative positions from there, low tech and will work for every hour of every day for the rest of your life, pretty good value.

[Dannomiss]

31 minutes ago, SteveWolves said:

Get yourself a planisphere and learn the relative positions from there, low tech and will work for every hour of every day for the rest of your life, pretty good value.

I have one 😊 @wookie1965 sent me one in the post. And you are right. This is. Better way to learn all the positions... Also it has the standard constellations shapes which is much better 

[Dannomiss]

39 minutes ago, Craney said:

If I'm reading the situation correctly, 

(1)  then there seems to be a difference with the 'artistry'  of drawing the figure of Hercules.... which is a result of the human brain interpreting patterns differently.

(2) Also, the time of night you are observing will change the 'appearance.'

Craney, thank you for your help. That makes a lot of sense. 

[Dannomiss]

1 hour ago, Kyle Allen said:

You can find it by going two thirds of the way from Arcturus to Vega 😀

Now looking at the star charts - makes total sense. Thank you so much

Also different apps seem to display the Constellations differently. I wonder in the case of Hercules they wanted to make it look like a person... To make it more dosquishable... But I think it's unhelpful lol

[SteveWolves]

Yep still use mine all the time and the notes in the cover show a number of "pointers" to some constellations, I have not learnt the location of them all but just enough to know my way around and it copes much better with life outside in the dark where it works fine if you spill a beer on it 😉🍺🔭

[Tenor Viol]

I think I bought my first Philip's planisphere from the museum shop in Liverpool somewhere around 1970 (well my parents did) and it was 15/- i.e. 75p. I think it's buried somewhere in the house. I came across the smaller 5" one the other day in a drawer....

Different cartographers and illustrators draw the constellations differently (possibly for copyright reasons), which can be confusing as in the real world the constellations don't really look anything like their 'form'. What we tend to see are the key 'asterisms' such as the Plough in Ursa Major, or the Keystone for Hercules. Human brain is good at picking out patterns like that. Most of the 'full' constellation patterns are flights of fancy at best and almost impossible to visualise in many cases.   

[Dannomiss]

Ok, an update and last night was the first night it was a semi clear sky. So sat our with binoculars and sun lounger and finally managed to locate Hercules keystone lol. I know I know I am a little slow at this 🙂 But now I am understand more of the sky it was easier.... I located Arcturus high up in the sky to the right. Vega to the left and scanned a third to the right from Vega and there it was... simples when you see it. Also located corona. The best thing so far is the constellation within Vega.... so clear in binoculars and with the double double star. My next task once I am up to speed with scope is to spend time finding the ring nebula (M57) south of vega 🙂 Pocket sky atlas is brilliant for this!

[Jiggy 67]

The problem with constellations are that they were catalogued years ago, sometimes thousands of years ago when the skies were pitch black. Under light polluted skies they can be difficult because half the stars are not visible 

[Louis D]

@Dannomiss You've probably already figured this out already, but the best way to use a planisphere is to hold it over your head, aligning N-S-E-W with the sky, and match the diagram with the sky.  Looking down at the planisphere and then up at the sky repeatedly never worked as well for me.

[Dannomiss]

17 minutes ago, Louis D said:

@Dannomiss You've probably already figured this out already, but the best way to use a planisphere is to hold it over your head, aligning N-S-E-W with the sky, and match the diagram with the sky.  Looking down at the planisphere and then up at the sky repeatedly never worked as well for me.

Finally got my head around it and above the head now makes sense

[Louis D]

1 minute ago, Dannomiss said:

Finally got my head around it and above the head now makes sense

I kept struggling with the flips until I realized I was having to do the flips in my head.  Holding it over my head and moving it in and out of my line of sight, boom!  Super easy to match up the planisphere with what I was seeing naked eye.

Imagine being in a hot air balloon basket and looking down at a road grid from high above.  You'd want a map of that road grid in the same orientation so you could easily match things up to let your chase crew know roughly where you are in case they've lost sight of you for some reason.

[Waddensky]

On 14/06/2020 at 14:45, Dannomiss said:

Also different apps seem to display the Constellations differently. I wonder in the case of Hercules they wanted to make it look like a person... To make it more dosquishable... But I think it's unhelpful lol

This is exactly what it is. The constellation stick figures have only been popularised since the 1950's, when Rey published The Stars: A New Way To See Them and introduced some very interesting (and reasonably complex) figures to recreate the images they represent. Here's some interesting info on this background. Stick figures are in no way 'official' (like the constellation boundaries) and it's just how you want to see or recognise them.

In reality, the stars of most constellations have nothing to do with each other, besides being in the same field of view as seen from Earth. Just go out and create your own 'constellations' that will help you to find your way around the stars 😁. One of my own most recognisable 'constellations' consists of the head of Draco and one foot of Hercules (yes - he's upside down!), five stars that are kind of a personal seasonal marker for me, but aren't listed anywhere.

4 hours ago, Dannomiss said:

Also located corona.

Well, that's good news I guess...

Edited June 18, 2020 by Waddensky

[Pixies]

3 hours ago, Dannomiss said:

Ok, an update and last night was the first night it was a semi clear sky. So sat our with binoculars and sun lounger and finally managed to locate Hercules keystone lol. I know I know I am a little slow at this 🙂 But now I am understand more of the sky it was easier.... I located Arcturus high up in the sky to the right. Vega to the left and scanned a third to the right from Vega and there it was... simples when you see it. Also located corona. The best thing so far is the constellation within Vega.... so clear in binoculars and with the double double star. My next task once I am up to speed with scope is to spend time finding the ring nebula (M57) south of vega 🙂 Pocket sky atlas is brilliant for this!

The M13 and M57 were the first things I observed when I got my new scope. The Ring nebula is great - it looks so incongruous when seen in a scope (IMHO).

[Dannomiss]

34 minutes ago, Pixies said:

The M13 and M57 were the first things I observed when I got my new scope. The Ring nebula is great - it looks so incongruous when seen in a scope (IMHO).

Yeah can't wait. Going to take me a few weeks to get my head around things, but once I do these are my next targets 🙂

[Dannomiss]

42 minutes ago, Waddensky said:

Well, that's good new I guess...

wasn't the beer unfortunately

[Louis D]

7 hours ago, Dannomiss said:

Also located corona.

Hopefully not the virus, either.

[Dannomiss]

20 minutes ago, Louis D said:

Hopefully not the virus, either.

It was definitely the constellation 👍