Need help regarding USB-hub

[masjstovel]

Hi,

Doing some cable re-management on my AP-rig, and decided i want a USB-hub regarding this. 

I dont want a mini-PC or a ASIAIR or simular. 

Some questions pop up regarding this, and i hope i can get some help from you guys!

 

1. Is there any reason NOT to go for this, except that it has only 4 slots?
https://www.amazon.com/ORICO-Powered-Aluminum-SuperSpeed-Splitter/dp/B07XHL5399/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=orico+usb+3.1&qid=1583018558&sr=8-3

2. Should i expect issues with having already "hubbed" equipment connected to the hub or wont that be a problem? Meaning, I have an ASI 1600MM camera with two USB 2.0 slots which the EFW (filterwheel) and EAF (autofocuser) are connected to. So when i connect the ASI1600 to the hub, the EFW and EAF will already be connected to ASI1600 - so it gets sort of "hub to hub to computer" 

3. Ive read many places that USB 3.0 should be max 3m long or it will lose its power or something. So i plan to solve this with having all gear connected to the hub on i.e the tripod leg, and then have a USB 3.0 repeater cable 10m long from tripod to inside where my computer will be. USB 3.0 Repeater cable is new to me, but as I understand it it sorts the length problem? 

4. Lastly, the HUB need USB 3.0 male in its main input, and my computer needs male input, so i then need a USB 3.0 repeater male to male. I cant seem to find this - only male to female. Then i would need a short normal USB 3.0male to male from the repeater to my computer? I just think it will be kind of a strange sollution; ASI1600 as a hub, goes through a USB hub with a USB repeater which connects to a normal usb 3.0 that goes to the computer. It just seems cumbersome and messy in my opinion. How would you go about this? 
 

[JamesF]

1) Probably not.  I have three or four of the seven-port Orico USB3 hubs and  they have been very reliable so far.  The 10Gbps USB3.1 model might be a bit excessive -- you'd probably get by just fine with the USB3.0 version, but if you're happier going for the faster model then I see no obvious issue with it.

2) I don't think you should see problems.  I have once in a while found a USB2 device that didn't want to talk to one USB3 hub but happily connected to another.  It seems to be quite rare though.

3) The issue with cable length is that the USB spec. requires that a signal get from one end of a cable to the other in a maximum time.  If the cable length is more than 3m then that limit is likely to be exceeded.  It's possible that the USB hardware at either end of the cable might be more tolerant, but it doesn't have to be and you may find that sometimes it works and then sometimes it doesn't.  Or it works for a while and then stops working.  Some people have said that if you use very high quality cables you stand more chance of it working, but I've not tried pushing things that far at all.  Otherwise if you want to go more than 3m then you need an "active" cable, which is really just a normal cable with a built-in USB hub at the end powered from the USB connection itself.  That shouldn't really be more than 3m long either.  You may get away with "daisy-chaining" active cables to get the length you need, but if the hub in the cables draws too much current then the one at the end of the line might not work reliably.  I think there's a limit to how many USB hubs you can chain together too, and obviously you'll have two at the telescope.  Possibly the only way to find out is to try it.  The other thing you can do is use a pair of converters that take a USB signal and retransmit it over a cat5e cable.  I've never used one, but people have posted here that it works well.  If you are using USB3.0 active cables then using the USB3.1 hub is almost certainly not going to give you any benefit over the USB3.0 model.

4) https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01KRO8D20 is a male type A to male type A USB3 cable by the looks of it.

I would probably solve this a completely different way.  I'd have something like a Raspberry Pi (ideally an RPi4, though I'm not completely up-to-date on how well the software works with those at the moment) on the mount and run Astroberry or StellarMate or something like that, connect the USB3 hub to that and then run a cat5e network cable back to the house and control all the kit via the RPi over the network.  It may even be possible to power the RPi from the USB3 hub.  You need to be happy enough configuring up the RPi end though.  There are a few people on SGL who do exactly this.

In fact I do something similar in my observatory, but I have a lightweight Intel-based PC on the pier and because the warm room isn't very far I run USB and HDMI cables from the PC to the warm room.  I run the same software as Astroberry and StellarMate use though, so I could operate everything remotely from the house if I wished to.

James

Edited March 1, 2020 by JamesF

[michael8554]

I agree with James that it will either work or it won't, and it is hard to recommend a particular combination with any certainty. 

In Astro setups we use USB in ways never imagined by the designers. 

Michael 

[masjstovel]

9 hours ago, JamesF said:

1) Probably not.  I have three or four of the seven-port Orico USB3 hubs and  they have been very reliable so far.  The 10Gbps USB3.1 model might be a bit excessive -- you'd probably get by just fine with the USB3.0 version, but if you're happier going for the faster model then I see no obvious issue with it.

2) I don't think you should see problems.  I have once in a while found a USB2 device that didn't want to talk to one USB3 hub but happily connected to another.  It seems to be quite rare though.

3) The issue with cable length is that the USB spec. requires that a signal get from one end of a cable to the other in a maximum time.  If the cable length is more than 3m then that limit is likely to be exceeded.  It's possible that the USB hardware at either end of the cable might be more tolerant, but it doesn't have to be and you may find that sometimes it works and then sometimes it doesn't.  Or it works for a while and then stops working.  Some people have said that if you use very high quality cables you stand more chance of it working, but I've not tried pushing things that far at all.  Otherwise if you want to go more than 3m then you need an "active" cable, which is really just a normal cable with a built-in USB hub at the end powered from the USB connection itself.  That shouldn't really be more than 3m long either.  You may get away with "daisy-changing" active cables to get the length you need, but if the hub in the cables draws too much current then the one at the end of the line might not work reliably.  I think there's a limit to how many USB hubs you can chain together too, and obviously you'll have two at the telescope.  Possibly the only way to find out is to try it.  The other thing you can do is use a pair of converters that take a USB signal and retransmit it over a cat5e cable.  I've never used one, but people have posted here that it works well.  If you are using USB3.0 active cables then using the USB3.1 hub is almost certainly not going to give you any benefit over the USB3.0 model.

4) https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01KRO8D20 is a male type A to male type A USB3 cable by the looks of it.

I would probably solve this a completely different way.  I'd have something like a Raspberry Pi (ideally an RPi4, though I'm not completely up-to-date on how well the software works with those at the moment) on the mount and run Astroberry or StellarMate or something like that, connect the USB3 hub to that and then run a cat5e network cable back to the house and control all the kit via the RPi over the network.  It may even be possible to power the RPi from the USB3 hub.  You need to be happy enough configuring up the RPi end though.  There are a few people on SGL who do exactly this.

In fact I do something similar in my observatory, but I have a lightweight Intel-based PC on the pier and because the warm room isn't very far I run USB and HDMI cables from the PC to the warm room.  I run the same software as Astroberry and StellarMate use though, so I could operate everything remotely from the house if I wished to.

James

Thanks alot for a fast and throughougly reply @JamesF, appreciate it alot! 

Regarding 1):

Reason for not going for the 3.0 version was that its not powered (from what i can see on the 4-port version), while the 3.1 is powered 12V and i can put that in my power supply that feeds the whole rig. I am on thin ice now, but i imagined it would be more reliable if its a powered HUB?

 

Regarding 2):
Nice!

Regarding 3):

Im probably using the terms repeater/active wrong, but i think we're talking about the same thing.

Most of them ive looked up are also powered externally 5V DC it seems.

You're saying these active USB's should not be more than 3m in length? I am asking because most of these products i find are minimum 5m, but many up to 25m long or even more.

https://www.amazon.com/SIIG-Active-Repeater-15-Meters-JU-CB0711-S1/dp/B0053YLXVS/ref=sr_1_9?keywords=repeater+usb+3.0&qid=1583023723&s=electronics&sr=1-9

 

Regarding 4): 
What i meant here was male to male active cable. 

Could you maybe pretend I was 5 years old and try explaining me what a Raspberry PI , and Astroberry is?:) 
Is it like a DIY ASIAIR kind of? 

I have the rig on my porch and cables through the door opening, where i sit and freeze my butt off as of now, because of the 3m maxmimum issue. There is WiFi signal on the porch so maybe I would be just better of with a mini-pc (Lenovo thinkcentre etc) if what your saying about the cable length for active USB is true. Problem then is that its not 12V as the rest of the setup, so i would have to go around the one power supply that feeds the rig now.

Edited March 1, 2020 by masjstovel

[symmetal]

James has pretty much said it all but I'll add my tuppence worth. 

3) USB3 spec doesn't actually specify a maximum cable length as unlike usb2 it communicates in both directions simultaneously (asynchronously) and the receiving end can tell the transmitting end to pause if it's getting overrun with data. However as the USB3 data rate is so much higher than USB2 the cable quality is the limiting factor rather than the length (due to signal timing delay) as in USB2. 'Standard' USB3 cables over 3m will generally degrade the signal quality too much to allow full USB3 speeds. USB3 will work with longer cables but at a reduced speed. The maximum workable speed is determined when the device is connected by a series of signal pulse tests. However this reduced speed may not be compatible with a device which can only transmit at a higher speed. As active USB3 extender (or repeater) cables are just a bus-powered single port usb hub and the cable quality looks no different to a standard cable I'm surprised why they are claimed to work at full USB3 speed when they are greater than 3m long. If that was the case all hubs would have the 'magic repeater' built in and would then work at full speed over 10m or even 25m without problems. 

You can daisy chain up to 5 hubs between the computer and the final device in the chain. Your camera hub counts as 1 and your Orico as another so theoretically 3 repeater/active cables in series could be used in your case. As each repeater consumes power from the PC this reduced power limit as you go down the cable may cause issues. A 10m active cable may work for you (at less than full USB3 speed) without problems but you have to try it to find out. 

4) You would use a short male-A to male-A USB3 cable as James mentioned to join your Orico hub to the socket on the active extension cable at your tripod leg.

Alan

Edited March 1, 2020 by symmetal

[Juicy6]

2 hours ago, symmetal said:

I'm surprised why they are claimed to work at full USB3 speed when they are greater than 3m long. If that was the case all hubs would have the 'magic repeater' built in and would then work at full speed over 10m or even 25m without problems. 

Alan

I have a powered USB3 hub on the scope. I also have a 15 m powered USB3 extension cable from scope hub to computer. I reach full speed with this setup. Images from my ASI294 are 14 MB and are downloaded in less than half a second. If I connect a SSD disk or memory card to my scope hub I can read or write to this disk with 60 MB/s without disturbing normal image download and scope control from computer to scope.  I use this cable:

http://tiny.cc/b65okz

Christer, Sweden

Edited March 1, 2020 by Juicy6

[michael8554]

Christer's 15M cable appears to have another reclocker in the midpoint of the cable, which makes better sense than the ones with the reclocker at the end. 

And it has a mains power supply,

He seems to have a product that works very well, but USB is so flakey there's no guarantee. 

Michael 

[TerryMcK]

There is an alternative to ultimately using a long USB 3 cable. You can keep all your cable lengths short into a local USB3 hub and use Silex DS 600 USB 3.0 Device Server https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01G9SYGLU The long cable to the imaging computer is then just an Ethernet cable transmitting data at up to gigabit rates. The USB devices appear to the computer as virtual USB devices and work exactly like regular USB devices. I have seen this used many times with great success.

Other alternatives are the Raspberry PI4 which again has multiple USB3/USB2 ports and can be kept local to the telescope. Astroberry or similar software works really well on the PI4 and I can vouch for that approach. You no longer need a laptop outside with the PI4.

[stash_old]

I am not saying this option is better and I dont use it any more but you can use software to create a USB over IP which runs as fast as your network (in fact the software slows you down).

I am talking about Virtualhere  https://www.virtualhere.com/home  - its not free ($49 aka £40) and you still need a piece of hardware to run the "server" end but the cleint end is transparent to your Astro software. I ran it on a RPI3 (not b+ ) and it worked with a DSLR no problem. I suspose it comes in between a cable solution and moving to a mount "mini -pc" (RPI,NUC etc) running Indi or Windows.

Ok you still need to create,load and maintain a Mount "Mini PC" but that is not difficult (honest) and you only need to install 1 piece of software (Virtualhere server)

I am restricting this to Camera connections as they are the "hoggers" of bandwidth (USB or otherwise) and the serial (i.e. COM) ports) can be done in many ways - e.g. Ser2net etc.

Really today we are spoilt for choice 🙂 and most options work well and ,as normal ,have Pro's and Con's.

 

[michael8554]

2 hours ago, TerryMcK said:

 use Silex DS 600 USB 3.0 Device Server https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01G9SYGLU

The reviews aren't encouraging,  not good on Windows, and particularly the one about ZWO ASI 1600. 

But it's like USB, will work fine for some, not for others. 

Michael 

[symmetal]

I expect the active extension cables force the USB3 connection to work well below the theoretical maximum speed which is why they work. My ASI cameras worked fine on 3m but were unreliable on 5m USB3 cables. The speed negotiated for working at 5m was likely too high. Juicy6's speed of 60MB/s is only 1/10 the maximum USB3 speed and is close to the top speed for USB2. Juicy6's happy with that speed so no problem.  Using a gigabit ethernet link instead is a theoretical maximum transfer rate of 120MB/s , still below the USB3 theoretical maximum of 640MB/s. This is probably only really noticeable on doing solar/lunar video imaging using full sensor size or large ROI when you notice a lower frame rate.

So I'd say that active extension cables will work if your system and you are happy at the reduced data rate. 

Alan

[masjstovel]

Thanks alot for many good replies guys! 

This Raspberry PI and Astroberry... Is astroberry a software? How does it work? 
I still do my imaging from my inside laptop? Using SGP pro and PHD2 as usual and all that? 

I dont know much about this subject as probably shines through by now, but my frames take 32mb each. This means 60mb/s will be just fine or? does other things "take data" from the USB other than downloading frames? 
If i put a external SSD with USB3 on the rig connected to the USB-hub as @Juicy6 mentions, that will be placed "before" the long active/repeater USB cable that goes to my laptop inside. Does this then not effect the potential speed-loss or..? 

[symmetal]

Astroberry is a suite of linux programs for installing on to a Raspberry Pi single board computer located near the scope as an alternative to a Mini-PC or similar doing the same job using Windows. You need to learn a bit of the linux operating system to understand it all.

Image downloading is the only thing that taxes the USB connection rate really. All the other operations are fairly insignificant as far as data bandwidth goes. Your guide camera downloading every couple of seconds or so is probably the second biggest user of bandwidth but these are small images. I'm not sure what Juicy6 uses the SSD to USB3 device for at the scope, but it plugs into the USB hub as another device just like your camera. They would all be 'before' the active/repeater cable which connects between the hub and your PC indoors. Reading and writing to this SSD device would be done over the active/repeater USB3 cable like an external USB drive connected to your PC. The read/write speed to the SSD drive would be limited to what your USB3 extension cable can deliver. In Juicy6's case that's 60MB/s to the SSD drive while also doing normal imaging stuff. Unless your doing video imaging with a USB3 camera as I mentioned above, 60MB/s or so downloading images to your PC should be OK.

Alan

Edited March 1, 2020 by symmetal

[Juicy6]

1 hour ago, symmetal said:

I'm not sure what Juicy6 uses the SSD to USB3 device for at the scope,

This was only for testing and stressing the USB cable. When I copied big iso-s up and down, I could not observe any delays or disturbance in my astro programs. 294 sent pictures to APT and 120 sent images to PHD2 without problems. Normally I store image files on computer SSD.

[symmetal]

43 minutes ago, Juicy6 said:

This was only for testing and stressing the USB cable. When I copied big iso-s up and down, I could not observe any delays or disturbance in my astro programs. 294 sent pictures to APT and 120 sent images to PHD2 without problems. Normally I store image files on computer SSD.

Ah! That makes sense.   You had me intrigued as to its purpose. 

Alan

[masjstovel]

17 hours ago, symmetal said:

4) You would use a short male-A to male-A USB3 cable as James mentioned to join your Orico hub to the socket on the active extension cable at your tripod leg.

Alan

Probably stupid question, but there is no problem using the male end on active usb in hub, and then the male to male from active female to laptop? The other way around in other words. Then i can plug in the active's power supply indoors. I have rearranged so i have 1 power supply feeding everything on the rig and dont want to go back to the cabledrum mess i had:) Thats also the reason i dont want a mini pc, since my one powersupply is 12v for all the gear.

Also, if 60mb/s is for a 15m cable: I need only 5m or 7m cable. I wonder how that will affect the speed? I see its alot of "depends", but are we talking 70mb/s or 400mb/s logically speaking with this much smaller length? 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by masjstovel

[symmetal]

If your active USB extension cable is in reality a hub with a single output then no it won't work in reverse. USB requires a connection from a host to a device. With a normal 4 port hub your PC is the host and the connection on the hub it normally connects to is a device. The 4 hub outputs then become hosts to whatever device is plugged into them. When first plugged in the host initiates the communication and the device responds. With your extension cable reversed you would have a host connected to a host and a device to a device. USB3 also has separate wire pairs for transmit (TX) and receive (RX) (unlike USB2) so the hub hardware would be designed to receive on one pair and transmit on the other. If you reversed the hub you would have the PC TX connected to the hub TX and RX to RX. A TX has to connect to an RX for it to work.

I assume the power required for the active extension in 5V. It would be fairly easy to connect a 12V to 5V buck converter to your 12V at the mount to give the 5V needed for the extension cable. You would need a DC connector lead to plug into the extension cable and it looks smaller than the standard 2.1mm x 5.5mm connectors. I would just chop the existing wire off your extension power supply and use that, but you may not wish to do that. 

A cable shorter than 15m could very easily work at a higher speed. It depends as to how the hardware in the extension cable sets what speed it wants to work at to give a reliable connection. I suspect it connects at a lower speed than what the host speed negotiation initially tries but I could be wrong in that. Halving the length of the cable could well double the speed up to say 120Mb/s but there's no way to tell for sure unless you try. 

Alan

[whipdry]

2 hours ago, masjstovel said:

Probably stupid question, but there is no problem using the male end on active usb in hub, and then the male to male from active female to laptop? The other way around in other words. Then i can plug in the active's power supply indoors. I have rearranged so i have 1 power supply feeding everything on the rig and dont want to go back to the cabledrum mess i had:) Thats also the reason i dont want a mini pc, since my one powersupply is 12v for all the gear.

Also, if 60mb/s is for a 15m cable: I need only 5m or 7m cable. I wonder how that will affect the speed? I see its alot of "depends", but are we talking 70mb/s or 400mb/s logically speaking with this much smaller length? 

 

FYI, an NUC will run without issues on a 12v supply. 

[Juicy6]

8 hours ago, masjstovel said:

Also, if 60mb/s is for a 15m cable: I need only 5m or 7m cable. I wonder how that will affect the speed? I see its alot of "depends", but are we talking 70mb/s or 400mb/s logically speaking with this much smaller length? 

I have the 7 m cable too. It will reach the exact same speed as the 15 m variant, so maybe the line amplifiers are limiting speed to 60+ MB/s. 70 MB/s or 400 MB/s would not improve anything. With my cables it feels fully transparent, no delays, no lags. 

[masjstovel]

11 hours ago, whipdry said:

FYI, an NUC will run without issues on a 12v supply. 

Which one? I find some but they run 20v:/

 

 

[Juicy6]

28 minutes ago, masjstovel said:

Which one? I find some but they run 20v:/

The 5i5RYH NUC which I have used runs from 12V. See specs here: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/83255/intel-nuc-kit-nuc5i5ryh.html . But last time I checked I could not find any 12V in todays Intel NUC range.

[masjstovel]

7 hours ago, Juicy6 said:

I have the 7 m cable too. It will reach the exact same speed as the 15 m variant, so maybe the line amplifiers are limiting speed to 60+ MB/s. 70 MB/s or 400 MB/s would not improve anything. With my cables it feels fully transparent, no delays, no lags. 

You think its for that brand in particular, and maybe other brands could deliver better or? 60mb/s will work for me now, but just wandering for the future sollutions i could bump into

[Juicy6]

2 minutes ago, masjstovel said:

You think its for that brand in particular, and maybe other brands could deliver better or? 60mb/s will work for me now, but just wandering for the future sollutions i could bump into

I think this is about the same for all brands. Maybe the repeater amplifiers are set to this speed to ensure no data loss. But, again, 60 MB/s is far beyond what is needed with today's cameras. Lucky imaging/planetary work with an ASI6200 and 62 Mpixels images might pose concerns, haha...

[whipdry]

2 hours ago, masjstovel said:

Which one? I find some but they run 20v:/

 

 

Link to NUC spec;

https://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/support/articles/000005545/intel-nuc.html

Just checked spec on 2019 i5 models, it's a pdf file on page 42 shows the back panel, specifies 12 to 19 volts on the power input socket.

 

Peter