Another numpty beginner needs your help!...

[david_r]

Hello all,

The good lady wife has (finally) conceded and given me the green light to get my first telescope.

What a choice! So, what do I want to see? As much as possible really! My quandry is as follows; do I go for

a) Either a 6" or 8" Newtonian reflector such as a Sky-Watcher Explorer with a manually operated equatorial mount

or

One of the scopes with the fancier auto tracking mounts. It seems to me that it's much easier to set up, but you get less optics for your money.

Now I am not adverse to setting the scope up manually, in fact consider that part of the challenge. I like challenges. I'm an engineer so don't foresee I'll have any major problems (oh dear, famous last words) - or am I setting myself up for a fall? Is it better to learn from this 'ground up' approach to gain a better understanding of the dynamics of it all, or is it all frankly a pain in the butt and I'd be better just getting an auto tracking scope.

My next question is I'd like to try and acquire some images via a camera, either a DSLR or other CCD type camera (I work in machine vision so laying my theiving hands on CCDs is not a problem.). I'm guessing that exposure times will be quite long so trying to track manually will yield awful results. Are the auto tracking mounts accurate enough to prevent blurring etc? I'm guessing the low end market mounts probably don't, plus you get vibration from the motors etc?

I'll not be attempting this until I've got to grips with operating the scope, but it's something I would like to try later on, so I'd like the scope to have the provision to allow me to do this.

Does the greater light collecting properties of a newtonian reflector give shorter exposure times and negate the need to track the subject?

I've mentioned one scope above. My budget is around £300'ish and a bit. Could go higher, but that will take some tactful negotiations with the missus, and ultimately cost me dearly further down the road! Once you've answered a) or if you'd like to recommend a scope - cool !

So there you go. Another newbie lost in the mass of options, financially constrained by the pleasure police. I want the moon on a stick and a scope that does everything.....help!

Finally, if you could recommend one book for a complete newcomer such as I, what would it be?

Any advice would be truly much appreciated.

Thanks

Dave.

[mdstuart]

Well from everything I know if you want to go for photography you get a really good motorised mount.....and then buy a 80 or 100mm apo refractor and a really good DSLR Camera. BUT that will cost about £750-£1,000.

If you are going for the visual side of astronomy get the biggest DOB you can afford so for £400 you might get a good 10 inch...

However a driven mount makes viewing much more pleasurable as your scope follows the object BUT a really large scope makes this arrangement very heavy so perhaps an 8 inch driven skywatcher....

I have a six inch driven TAL and it is great. Made of steel throughout including the focuser etc, really solid and I am finding there is more than enough for me to find.

The final option is a SCT which gives you the big mirror, perhaps a drive but with less weight BUT of course this costs more...

What I would say is whatever you buy you will then want a bigger one...

Mark

[Tiny]

Not quite your choice but this outfit is a good starter and a bargin at the price

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/proddetail.php?prod=c6sxlt&cat=49

[Starflyer]

If you're close enough to collect and aren't averse to second hand kit then this is potentially a very good deal. Not GOTO but a good 8" reflector on a very good motorised mount. There are some very good second hand deals around at the moment; astronomers generally take very good care of their kit and upgrade regularly.

If you want to image deep sky objects with a DSLR or large CCD then I think you'll really struggle to buy new kit that will track the sky adequately within your budget. If you're happy to image the moon and planets then something like a Skywatcher 130PM and a webcam would give you reasonable results well within your budget.

As for the book - it has to be Turn Left at Orion

Ian

[The Warthog]

This is a good place to look for used kit: http://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/ I bought both my scopes from the Canadian edition of this website, and have no complaints at all. I have also bought several eps and other stuff from the contributors. As this site is mostly serious astronomers, you are less likely to be offered some of the disasters that appear on eBay.

[david_r]

Thanks. I appeciate all your responses.

David.

[daz]

Things that you should also consider David - Time and Space!

Time

Setting up an imaging rig can take plenty of time, and if it has to be done for every session, you will need to polar align the mount, then star-align it before you can start taking pictures. Of course, if its all in an observatory and permanently mounted, then these problems disappear - but you need to be aware of them.

Using an equatorial mount will always need some form of alignment, but how accurate that alignment is really depends on the evenings purpose. Visual astronomy needs the least accurate - just pointing the mount North is usually good enough (even on a powered, tracking mount). Planetary imaging can be done with simple polar alignment, but long exposure imaging needs the most accurate alignment.

Then there are the scopes themselves. An SCT takes a while to cool down, a reflector takes less time, and a refractor less still. Of course, if the scope is kept outdoors (shed, garage, etc) this time is much reduced.

Space

People very often do not realise how big some telescopes - and the mount - can be. Take a 16" Dobsonian, the mount could be as much as twice this in diameter and it needs to be stored somewhere. If your partner/wife/significant other is already raising eyebrows at your strange need to stand outside and stare at little points of light, what will happen when you bring the leviathan into the front room/hall/bedroom for storage??

Also consider where you live. A flat on the fourth floor presents some logistical issues - what do you take down first? Will the other bits still be there when you get down? If you have a small 80mm refractor on a simple EQ mount, you can probably take it all in one journey. A fork-mounted SCT or a big dob is another thing!!

I suggest that you find your local astro society and pop along and take a look at some of the different scopes that they have. Most societies these days have a couple of different ones to look at/through.

The best telescope is that one you use most often!!

And welcome to SGL

[Greg]

I have to agree with Daz on the "Space" side..When I had 3 outfits they took up all the dining room.. :shock:

The wife soon got fed up of that

I now keep all my kit in a secure garage, which keeps it cool and ready for observing.

The other factor to consider is weight..A 10 inch dob or 8" Newtoniwn on a GEQ mount with weights is a bit of a lump if you have to transfer from house to boot of car to observing site and back again, also carting a big rig down flights of stairs (If you live in a flat) Is a no go..

I like these..

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/proddetail.php?prod=skywatcher_skymax_127_az_goto&cat=133

And the mount would take a small refractor..The set up would be good for short exposures with a DSLR..

HTH

Greg

[Astro_Baby]

Yup - they trake some serioous space up for sure. I live in a flat and the 200/HEQ5 combination is the absolute limit. To lug it plus its mount and accessories is a minimum of three trips to the car. Set up time is in the 20 minute range minimum.

To go to a site takes a good 90 minutes all told plus the same again to take it back home. Thats why I ended up buying a teensy Maksutov ( Nexstar 4SE ) because one of the other factors for a big scope is this.....

You drive home from work and the skies clear, so you rush back, have a mug of tea and start loading the scope BUT by the time you have loaded it, driven to the site, set it all up again the chances are in the UK the weather has changed. The converse is that you come home, the weather looks rubbish so you settle down to do paperwork - 3 hours later the sky is as clear as a bell but its now too late to go out cos you have work tomorrow. You cant take the scope out every night on the off chance so you get VERY tetchy about the whole hobby and end up selling it all off in frustration.

I ALMOST did that myself a few months ago. People here persuaded me the weather would get better ( they lied ). Frankly I dont even get to use the 4SE as since I have owned it its been cloudy OR I havent been free to mess about looking at the sky. In short I have about a grands worth of kit sat in my lounge as a conversation piece and there are days when I most earnestly wish I had taken up knitting and I know I am not the only one for sure......

Its something to beware of before you spend heavily on this hobby. My advice would be get something small and portable unless you plan on having a permanent set-up.

[Ant]

Apolgies if you've said this already - but do you have a particular type of object to look at?

Will you want to look at / photo Galaxies, clusters, nebulea etc or The moon and Planets.

This could lead you down two very different paths.

The advice given so far is good advice.

What about a visit to a local astro society. Click on Astropedia (top right of page) and select Societies to fine one near you. This is will be great for seeing scopes in the flesh and finding out how big they are.

Ant

[Doc]

As much as I do agree with all that has been said it doesn't have to be like that.

I have a 16" Lightbridge dob and people on here will testify it's one big beast.

I put wheelbarrow wheels and handles on it. keep it ready assembled in the upright position in the corner of the conservatory takes up no more room then a corner tv cabinet.

I can wheel it out of the patio doors and be set up to observe in 2 minutes.

As long as it's not raining or forcast rain I often wheel it out just incase it is a clear night eventually, just so the scope reaches temperature.

[david_r]

Again, thanks sincerely for the responses. Great food for thought.

To answer the easiest...what do I want to look at? To be honest, anything and everything at this stage! I am a complete beginner :oops: .

The size / portability of it all was something I've been considering. My current plans are to use it purely in the back garden. I live in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere and I dont foresee light pollution to be a problem. I can certainly get some great nocturnal vistas at night purely by eye. I have my own room in the house where I keep all my boys toys, and the wife and three kids know better than to go poking around in there!!

My garden is pretty big and and I think gives me plenty of all round visibility. In terms of portability, I wasn't planning to take it any further than 20-30 yards down the garden somewhere. However as I get more involved I may want to wander elsewhere.

Really its just for me to try at this stage, along with showing my kids what I can and getting them excited about it as well.

At this stage I've purchased a second hand 8" reflector set up. Didn't cost me much, so figured it was a small investment to make to try out.

It's a Helios, is that good or bad?! [asks worryingly! :oops: ]

At this stage I'm going purely for "looking" rather than "imaging", and then if it's as much fun as I expect it to be, I'll upgrade with new kit etc. (The imaging side interests me as I photography has always been a hobby of mine).

Looking forward to getting my hands on it. Turn Left at Orion should be on the door mat when I get home tonight as well.

Again, thank you all for the advice and warm welcome.

Dave.

[Greg]

Dave,

I cut my astro teeth on a 8" Helios reflector..Great scope..Which Equatorial mount is it on??

Greg

[david_r]

Hi Greg, Errrr....not sure. The guy who sold it to me said it was an EQ3-2? Sound familiar? It has a small scope in the base for aligning the mount to Polaris, if that helps? Can post pics if that helps identify it.

Still getting to grips with it all, and its clouded over tonight

Does anyone know where I can download manuals for the mount and scope?

It came with a Plossl 10mm EP and 20mm EP and a Barlow 2x adaptor. According to the tutorial and primer section (which is an awesome help by the way) this gives me a choice of 100x and 50x, or 200x if I use the barlow with the 100x eyepiece. Should I be looking at getting one or two more eyepieces?

Thanks,

Dave.

[TheThing]

Dave,

I had a 5" Helios refractor on an EQ3-2 mount - sounds just like the one you've got. Helios is now part of Skywatcher and they share the same optics, so you've got yourself a good scope there! Congrats!

I'm sure I have a copy of the manual to cover both out in my office. I'll check on Friday when I'm back at work. I think I downloaded it off the net, but you're welcome to it if I can dig it out.

If you'd like to PM me your address, I'll post it onto you, gratis.

All you need now are some clear skies...

[Greg]

You'll find the manual here..

http://www.opticalvision.co.uk/documents/14.pdf

And for your scope..it's the same as this one..

http://www.opticalvision.co.uk/documents/47.pdf

http://www.opticalvision.co.uk/documents/22.pdf

HTH

Greg

[david_r]

TheThing, cheers for the very kind offer. I think I've got everything I need from Gregs last post (Thanks Greg).

So, my last question then (I promise!)....here's what I now have.

Helios 8" Reflector on an EQ3-2 mount, with a finder scope.

10mm Plossl EP

20mm Plossl EP

2x Barlow adaptor

Do all 1.25" EP's fit my scope. Looking through some of the adverts on places like David hind, some have statements like "specifically designed for the Meade ZXY..." Are these not suitable?

I would like to get a lunar filter as well. Do all 1.25" filters fit all 1.25" EPs? Are these neutral density filters, similar to the photographic filters?

The maximum I can achieve with the current EP / Barlow combination is 200x. I'd like have at least one more lens to go a bit higher, but cant help feeling that adding the barlow is detrimental to the actual image quality (more glass in the optical path).

What is the smallest EP? My scope has a focal length of 1000mm and I think the max practical mag is 400x, so that would be a 2.5mm EP. Or is it the case that a 2.5mm is not available as the aperture is to small to be practical and you must use a barlow lens to achieve this?

Should I snap up the 6.3mm Plossl and the 1.25" 25% lunar filter in the for sale section!!?

Thanks again,

Dave.

[The Warthog]

A 2.5mm ep is available from lots of manufacturers. I would suggest that you make a 5mm ep your smallest, and get a 2x Barlow, as the opportunities for using your highest power are fairly few, and usually a 5mm ep is more comfortable to look through, even when Barlowed.

Plan your ep kit around your Barlow, so you don't get too many overlaps. For example, my kit is 24mm, 7.5mm, 4.8mm and a 2x Barlow. This works well with both my f/5 and f/9.5 scope.

[mdstuart]

Before you get a lunar filter consider one of the polorizing filters then you can change the filtration rather than just having 25%...

[Greg]

Dave,

Do all 1.25" EP's fit my scope. Looking through some of the adverts on places like David hind, some have statements like "specifically designed for the Meade ZXY..."

Yes, although not all eyepieces are suitable for your scope..

I would like to get a lunar filter as well. Do all 1.25" filters fit all 1.25" EPs? Are these neutral density filters, similar to the photographic filters?

Yes, although a polarizing filter (A little more expensive) Would provide a varying filtering effect.

What you have to take into account with telescopes and eyepieces is "Eye relief" Or I call it eyeball comfort!

Ie.. It is far more comfortable to look at an object for any length of time through a lower power eyepiece as they tend to have better eye relief (Or eyeball comfort). So I tend to use a 10mm eyepiece and use a barlow to increase power. I have the benefit of the eyer elief from a 10mm eyepiece but with a barlow (X2) I have the power of a 5mm eyepiece!

So I wouldn't go below a 6mm ep in the Helios. For planets, have a scoot around the net for some othoscopics (Very high power but poor eye relief, hence the cheap prices. But don't let that put you off!!) As the planets tend to be bright and the MK1 Eyeball tends to pick out detail quickly..

As for galaxies and nebula..Use a lower power eyepiece to hunt them down then zap up the power.

A little trick...If your looking at a bright nebula or galaxy..Sometimes upping the power a little darkens the background!

HTH

Greg

[TheThing]

Whilst I agree with Greg (and this is in no way a criticism of his comments, just some further info), you can some some orthos out there, still fairly cheap, that give good eye relief as well! No hard and fast rule, I'm afraid. I find some of the smaller orthos pretty good for looking at objects other than planets as well.

In addition, I find that upping the power of an EP does darken the background, but can also darken the object you're looking at too. However, I have only used cheap(ish) plossl in this respect, so you might find a better contrast with more expensive EPs.

'Different strokes for different folks' as a chap I used to work with once said.