Alt-Azimuth Balance

[Rob Sellent]

I'm having problems balancing my 4" f9 on an HDAZ mount and AZ4

With a 10x50 finder, Moonlite focuser, a 2" TV diagonal and Delos eyepiece, for example, I'm aligning the scope rings almost to the edge of the focuser's flange. Hopefully, sometime this week I'll be getting hold of some Binoviewers to practice with but I know balance will then become virtually impossible. The only way around this problem is to fully tighten the altitude nuts but then that kind of defeats the idea of having a fluid and smooth flowing az-mount. Doing this also makes tracking at +180x very tricky. 

Would it help if I balanced the f9 with one of my other scopes on the other side of the mount? Is this a fault of the mount and that an upgrade to a TS AZ5 or Sky Tee II would make things far easier? Is there any non-fuss trick any of you know about? I've read that tryng to tie bean bags to the lens end of the scope might do the trick, but this just seems like too much bother 

Any tricks, insights or ideas on what to do would be greatly appreciated

 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Rob Sellent

[johninderby]

First of all yes upgrading to a TS-AZ5 or Skytee would be a good idea as they handle longer scopes better but there are things you can do do to help with your existing mount. You could use a dovetail counterweight and a longer dovetail bar.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/counterweights/baader-dovetail-bar-levelling-counterweight.html

Exercise ankle weights with a velco wrap can be put near the front of the scope as a cheaper alternative. Bit neater than hanging weight bags.

Edited October 28, 2019 by johninderby

[joe aguiar]

 I had the az3 before but ya had sloop so it was portable and light but ended selling it.

just wondering would a cg4 not do? it can track better u can add a clock drive and by the time you add weights it will be as heavy as acg4. If you upgrade to az5 I heard there are no slow motion controls and what if you have the same issues once u add the binoviwer and eps will it have balance issues too?

my thought a cg4 will hold a 4" easy and u wont have to worry about balance issue just lower the weight.

joejaguar

[johninderby]

The TS-AZ5 does have slow mo controls and is basicly the same as the Skytee but with better quality control.

Edited October 28, 2019 by johninderby

[joe aguiar]

ohh ok weird I read last week it didn't maybe they were talking about something else but could have sworn was about the atz4 atz5 was the topic

joejaguar

Edited October 28, 2019 by joe aguiar

[johninderby]

There are a few different AZ5s but all with slo mo controls.

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p4537_TS-Optics-AZ5-Alt-azimuthal-Mount-with-tripod-and-fine-adjustment.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az5-deluxe/sky-watcher-az5-deluxe-alt-azimuth-mount.html

https://www.365astronomy.com/365Astronomy-AZ5-Versatile-Vari-angle-Micro-Motion-Alt-Azimuth-Telescope-Mount-with-Stainless-Steel-Tripod.html

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, johninderby said:

There are a few different AZ5s but all with slo mo controls.

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p4537_TS-Optics-AZ5-Alt-azimuthal-Mount-with-tripod-and-fine-adjustment.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az5-deluxe/sky-watcher-az5-deluxe-alt-azimuth-mount.html

https://www.365astronomy.com/365Astronomy-AZ5-Versatile-Vari-angle-Micro-Motion-Alt-Azimuth-Telescope-Mount-with-Stainless-Steel-Tripod.html

No room for confusion over the term AZ-5 in the marketplace, is there? 🤣

[Rob Sellent]

@johninderby, in your experience, if I were to get a TS AZ5 do you think it would still need a dovetail counterweight (thanks for the links) to deal with the f9?

@joe aguiar, in your experience, do you think the EQ3 type set up (CG4) would be a tad overmounted with a long tube frac pushing x200+? 

Just thinking outloud, I wonder what advantages and disadvantages there'd be with something like a TS AZ5 over an EQ5. I don't have problems hunting objects with either type of mount but I do get nervous with overmounted mounts (especially with a 25 year old plus fluorite dangling off it) and hate vibrations while observing at high magnifications 😕.

Anyway, thanks for the help

Edited October 28, 2019 by Rob Sellent

[johninderby]

The TS-AZ5 has a lot more tolerance for handling out of balance scopes so shouldn’t beed a dovetail weight. Mine handles my 100mm f/13 with no problems. 
 

The AZ5 doesn’t need any setting up. Just add the scope and start observing. The only disadvanatge I suppose would be no GOTO but that could also be seen as an advantage.

And yes that is a Synscan system that I test fitted to a Skytee. Interesting experiment but now that the AZ-EQ5 is available just not needed.

Edited October 28, 2019 by johninderby

[Rob Sellent]

That's good to hear @johninderbyI'm really not fussed about GOTO, indeed half the fun is using atlases and searching out the given object. But tracking might be useful next year when sketching planets and for general lunar work. I still can't decide if that EQ tracking advantage would outweigh the sheer ease of use and set up with a decent but still relatively budget likeable az mount.  

[johninderby]

I have thouroughly enjoyed using my TS-AZ5 and it has been great with virtually zero backlash in both Alt and Az unlike a Skytee.

Will soon be going up for sale though when my Rowan AZ100 gets here. Sometime in November. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙂 

[joe aguiar]

2 hours ago, Rob Sellent said:

@johninderby, in your experience, if I were to get a TS AZ5 do you think it would still need a dovetail counterweight (thanks for the links) to deal with the f9?

@joe aguiar, in your experience, do you think the EQ3 type set up (CG4) would be a tad overmounted with a long tube frac pushing x200+? 

Just thinking outloud, I wonder what advantages and disadvantages there'd be with something like a TS AZ5 over an EQ5. I don't have problems hunting objects with either type of mount but I do get nervous with overmounted mounts (especially with a 25 year old plus fluorite dangling off it) and hate vibrations while observing at high magnifications 😕.

Anyway, thanks for the help

I do think so a cg4 can hold  15 lbs I have mine with takahasi 102 tsa with a large format moonlight focuser its 15 lbs it holds it fine u may have small vibrations at high power on semi-windy or windy days but noem we are not suppose to view fine detail on those days anyway. It all comes come to stabililty and portabililty the cg4 can work it may not be rock solid but the az4 is not rock solid either.A eq5 or az5 would be more rock stable but both are heavier even a tad more more for the eq5 cause of the weight mainly.

Also depends on what u want  or need

joejaguar

Edited October 28, 2019 by joe aguiar

[joe aguiar]

ops for got to add depend on what 4 ich refractor the skywatcher evostar 100mmf9 is only 6 to 7 lbs

joe

[John]

It's the tube length that puts the strain on the mount, rather than it's weight. Virtually any mount can handle 3-4kg of weight but the near metre long tube is a whole different matter due to moment arm force.

[GlenM]

19 hours ago, johninderby said:

The TS-AZ5 has a lot more tolerance for handling out of balance scopes so shouldn’t beed a dovetail weight. Mine handles my 100mm f/13 with no problems. 
 

The AZ5 doesn’t need any setting up. Just add the scope and start observing. The only disadvanatge I suppose would be no GOTO but that could also be seen as an advantage.

And yes that is a Synscan system that I test fitted to a Skytee. Interesting experiment but now that the AZ-EQ5 is available just not needed.

I do love that Carton lensed F/13, John. Looks beautiful after that refurb.

 

Glen.

 

[johninderby]

Wil look even nicer on a Rowan AZ100. 🙂

[GlenM]

Yes, very much. It will be nice to see a Brit mount. I used a lot of Carton lenses before I retired and never had a bad one. Same with iStar also.

 

Glen.

 

 

 

[John]

Despite the issues already mentioned in this thread, its hard to overlook the Skytee II (and clones) when looking for a reasonably heavy duty alt-az mount if the budget is less than £500. 

[johninderby]

The. TS-AZ5 while It is essentially the same as the SkyTee has better quality control and both ends are threaded for a saddle. Mine has virtually zero backlash in either axis. No saddles supplied but the ones supplied with the Skytee are pretty poor.and really need replacing anyway.

[Mark at Beaufort]

Rob I had the original SkyTee 1 mount which is the same as your HDAZ.  I bought it about 10/11 years ago and eventually changed to the SkyTee 2 mount because I wanted slow motion controls.

The mount always needed the OTA to be balanced well and the following photos show some of the scopes I used.

The different photos show 1. WO 66 + 102 APO, 2. 102 APO + Towa f/13, 3. Meade 150mm Achro and finally the 90mm Towa

[Saganite]

Hi Rob,

I would definitely go for something like the Skytee/ Ercole, or Berlebach castor. These give virtually zero damping time with my 4" f7.4

Neither the AZ4 nor AZ5 could give me this at high powers and were soon sold on.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Saganite

[johninderby]

I had the original WO Easytouch and changed it as I wanted slo mo controls.

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, Saganite said:

Hi Rob,

I would definitely go for something like the Skytee/ Ercole, or Berlebach castor. These give virtually zero damping time with my 4" f7.4

Neither the AZ4 nor AZ5 could give me this at high powers and were soon sold on.

With my DSV-2B on a Manfrotto 058B tripod, I found I had to put Sorbothane pads under each tripod foot to quickly dampen vibrations (1/2 second vs. 3 to 5 seconds without).  I suppose a wooden tripod might dampen these vibrations.

[Saganite]

15 hours ago, Louis D said:

With my DSV-2B on a Manfrotto 058B tripod, I found I had to put Sorbothane pads under each tripod foot to quickly dampen vibrations (1/2 second vs. 3 to 5 seconds without).  I suppose a wooden tripod might dampen these vibrations.

Fair point Louis. I did also change to a Berlebach tripod, and the whole is now as solid as a very solid thing on a solid base.... 

I would add though that I put the Berlebach castor mount onto the steel tripod when I first got it and it was still very much better than the other Alt Az mounts that I tried, but as I have said, I have zero tolerance for damping vibration, hence the wooden tripod.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Saganite

[John]

1 hour ago, Saganite said:

...... I have zero tolerance for damping vibration, hence the wooden tripod.

Reconciling that with owning an F/15 refractor is must to be tough !

I've yet to try a mount that gives me zero vibrations and immediate damping with my long refractors over 4 inches in aperture. Even the EQ6 / Meade Giant Field tripod (3 inch steel legs !) didn't quite do that.