Yet another “what Telescope” question!

[BlondeBimbo]

Well sort of!

Thanks for letting me join, been looking for several months seriously – many years casually (like many I guess)

Currently we take a walk out up to a slightly remote hill which has limited North views (trees) , but a good south view with little light pollution. We have been using binos and of recent times a fairly cheep hobby scope and are looking to invest in something better and dedicated.

We have the opportunity locally of a Besser Messier 202/1000 newt at a good price, it comes with a GEM – which I quite like as I plan to start photographing in the future (DSO’s ideally), and this will obviously track better. Currently it’s just planets – mainly because that’s pretty much all we can really see with any worth given the equipment we have – with better kit then this would change.

My real issue, is whether the physical size would just end up putting us off – the ota in itself is 11kg, and ~210 dia x ~800 long – quite an effort from just putting a coat on and wandering up a hill with a simple scope!

The alternative is to set it up in the garden, but with trees to the North and East, the house to the West, and a road to the South, the best altitude would be greater than 45deg W, N, and E and circ 30deg to the south, there is obviously more light pollution – and unfortunately a street lamp is directly SSE!

So, does anyone have a similar issue for observation in their gardens as I describe? – Is it practical to use such a scope in the garden – or to do anything at all will we have to cart it somewhere remote?

With binos and a simple scope the effort to walk up the hill is nothing and given their small directional size we don’t really get a good view in the garden so it’s not something we even try as I doubt it’s representative.

Obviously, we could look to a smaller optic – perhaps 6” and SCT – but then this becomes a serious price, and I assume would be just as poor in the garden.

Ideally if we could use this newt in the garden, and perhaps just take it out on occasions (nice romantic night for its birthday perhaps….) then this would be really good – but is this a practical proposition?

[Rob]

My first response here would be to go for 5"/6" Newt - Yes!. the last thing you need is to be put off lugging kit so early in the hobby. These options offer good light grasp, and will allow you to learn the kit & Sky first. Then upgrades can follow down the line - that includes Astrophotography with a 5"/6" scope!.

Rob

[Stu Todd]

As ever, you'll get a hundred different answers. I think the answer you seek depends on budget and how much you are willing to lug around, as your garden (like so many others) is not too flash for observing.

I think if astrophotography is your ultimate goal, then you should get a DSLR, tripod and shutter release unit to take to your dark sky site and improve your understanding of imaging. Keep using the binos and books to learn your way around the constellations. You can eventually get an EQ6 and a refractor and start doing DSO's and remain portable still. And you will have a good idea of the sky from your area and maybe sussed a few better places to go.

Stu

 

 

[lenscap]

When you say the Bresser is 11kg that is probably just the scope. My Skywatcher 200/1000 is nearly 10kg. Then add 10 kg of counterweights.

Then the mount & tripod maybe another 10kg. Just too much to lug any distance.

Most people have a limited view from their backyards. You will be able to view planets to the south. Light pollution doesn't matter for planets.

For everything else the higher the angle the better. Clearer sky, less LP.

A 200/1000 is a great backyard scope. Any longer trips need to be motorised.

Clear skies.

[BlondeBimbo]

Yes the 11kg is just the ota - in total it's around 28kg.  Not completely  familiar with the skys - usually OK to find most of the northern and a few of the southern 57 selected stars - so I can usually find the astronomically interesting ones from these - but can't see them properly! 

[Rob]

2 minutes ago, BlondeBimbo said:

Yes the 11kg is just the ota - in total it's around 28kg.  Not completely  familiar with the skys - usually OK to find most of the northern and a few of the southern 57 selected stars - so I can usually find the astronomically interesting ones from these - but can't see them properly! 

Its a lot of weight to make it a decision of "no, lets not bother tonight" and that's the worry I have for you. Keep it simple, but without compromising on what you wish to see!. I would suggest an EQ3 mount and Maybe the 5" newt to start out.

II started out with a Helios (now Skywatcher) Skyhawk 114 (4.5") I had a ball with that scope!.. and held on to it for years. I learnt the sky, had good views of DSO's & Planets. It came on an EQ1 - and was light as a feather. I'm not suggesting this scope for you, but a scope package with an EQ3-2 mount will in future allow basic astrophotography when ready £310 for the 150P on EQ3-2 Mount - but will need to buy a motor for the mount later.

Or go for the 130P Super track package and learn + enjoy the sky BEFORE running down the full on astrophotography route £245 - this comes with tracking motors (not goto) and will allow basic AP when ready.

1. https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-150p-eq3-2.html

2. https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-130p-supatrak-auto.html

Rob

 

 

[Ricochet]

Instinctively, I think the scope and mount are going to be too heavy to carry up a hill. You say "we" in your posts which suggests that there are two of you so perhaps if you split the load between you it will be manageable. I'm thinking splitting the counterweights in backpacks and then one carries the mount and one the telescope. The other option would be to get some sort of cart to load it on. Given that it is local I am sure the seller would be happy for you to go around and try lifting it to see if it is manageable. 

With regards to observing from home, you already have a "cheap" scope so you can use this to observe as you would with the new scope and test whether the trees and street lights block too much of the sky or not. 

[happy-kat]

If you can't see Polaris from your garden then if using an eq mount you'll need to learn to drift align.

Keeping it very small then could consider an Skywatcher star adventurer with dslr or perhaps a az-gti run in eq mode when imaging with a dslr or in az mode with a refractor when observing (this has go to). Both much more portable.

[Cosmic Geoff]

My comment is that a 202mm Newtonian on a manual  GEM is a lackluster package these days - you can do various things with it, but it's big, heavy, needs some knowledge of the sky and is awkward to use.  You will get plenty of varied advice, but if you bought a small, portable instrument of good quality it would be easily transported to a dark site with low horizons.  A major question is whether to invest in GoTo - it depends on whether you think amateur astronomy is about looking at objects or looking for them.   Likewise whether to buy a Dobsonian, which somebody is sure to suggest.  They have their fans, but the simple cheap mount makes some observing tasks unattractive, bothersome, or difficult.

[BlondeBimbo]

The Besser Messier (I like the name) does come with goto/tracking functionality, and would prefer the tracking in anything I buy - just for keeping on-target , the we is my husband and I.

Not sure about the tests we do in the garden with the toy scope/binos, the issue is - with the binos especially the way in which I would track the sky, it's August so south would be Sagittarius, going up and a bit to the left would be Altair - then rasalhague to the right - I assume, because I would have raised the binos through the street lamp so wouldn't be able to see !!!

If I was pre positioning the scope, I wouldn't be moving over the sky quite the same - I don't know but I think the binos would be worse because of this so perhaps not a realistic test? 

[Rob]

True Cosmic Geoff!. Hence the thought of the 130P Super Track!. Easy to transport to the site, learn the sky, has tracking for looking at Planets & DSO's - Fun to use!

[BlondeBimbo]

6 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

My comment is that a 202mm Newtonian on a manual  GEM is a lackluster package these days - you can do various things with it, but it's big, heavy, needs some knowledge of the sky and is awkward to use.  You will get plenty of varied advice, but if you bought a small, portable instrument of good quality it would be easily transported to a dark site with low horizons.  A major question is whether to invest in GoTo - it depends on whether you think amateur astronomy is about looking at objects or looking for them.   Likewise whether to buy a Dobsonian, which somebody is sure to suggest.  They have their fans, but the simple cheap mount makes some observing tasks unattractive, bothersome, or difficult.

 

It's a motorised GEM , I would prefer to look at I guess and I would prefer either goto, or a decent GEM that I could guide in and track

[BlondeBimbo]

35 minutes ago, happy-kat said:

If you can't see Polaris from your garden then if using an eq mount you'll need to learn to drift align.

 

I am at latitude 55deg 51' 47.5"N so Polaris is visible above the trees, only limited to around above 45deg because of the trees  

[Cosmic Geoff]

Just to give some detail: I have the 203mm Newtonian + EQ-5 GEM + RA motor drive combo, but I hardly ever use it, preferring the  8" SCT GoTo, or the handier 127mm Mak GoTo.

GEMs are not the simplest mounts to setup and use, as you have to assemble it, orient it in the right direction, and then (for astrophotography) get it precisely aligned on the celestial pole. But if you want to do deep-space astrophotography, there is no alternative. The opposite extreme is an alt-azimuth GoTo with Starsense, where setup (for visual) can be reduced to little more than: carry outfit outside, connect power, turn on and wait.

[BlondeBimbo]

1 minute ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

Just to give some detail: I have the 203mm Newtonian + EQ-5 GEM + RA motor drive combo, but I hardly ever use it, preferring the  8" SCT GoTo, or the handier 127mm Mak GoTo.

GEMs are not the simplest mounts to setup and use, as you have to assemble it, orient it in the right direction, and then (for astrophotography) get it precisely aligned on the celestial pole. But if you want to do deep-space astrophotography, there is no alternative. The opposite extreme is an alt-azimuth GoTo with Starsense, where setup (for visual) can be reduced to little more than: carry outfit outside, connect power, turn on and wait.

That's my fear with the big scope, but if I go to a goto setup it won't really track well for photography unless I go very expensive!

So is it worth doing if I really won't be able to afford it? 

[Stu Todd]

Read my post before BlondeBimbo. You seem to want to run before you can walk. Forget lugging EQ5's and scopes up hills. Learn your way around the sky with binos and a DSLR/tripod and start taking images, otherwise, you will be disappointed with results.

Astrophotography is (arguably) the most unforgiving medium. So so much to go wrong. Gets frustrating really fast. Start simple and the rewards will come.

[happy-kat]

Weather can be very fickle, the easier it is to get out there the more likely to get out there even when the forecast is patchy. 

[refractordude]

I am a refractor guy. However, if you have no problems with diffraction spikes https://www.amazon.co.uk/Orion-08944e-Reflector-Telescopes-11-6-inch/dp/B001DDW9UW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1534368526&sr=8-1&keywords=6+inch+dobsonian. 

[Obi Wan Ken00bi]

It's a challenging first setup you are desciribing. But, in my humble opinion, astronomy gets really fun when you take pictures. A goto system is also very handy and I wouldn't go back. How about a HEQ5 mount or something? Or an iOptron 30 or even 45? You can put a nice f5-6 80-90mm ED refractor on it for moon+planets, visual and some wider field (relatively!) astrophotography. Tracking and guiding is also less critical (as I'm currently finding out with a eq6 and a f5 8 inch newton... argh!!). That's what I would tell myself if I could travel back in time 10 years, haha.

[Swamp Gas]

Just to add a practical example of weight and portability, I have the Nexstar Evo 6 which is a single fork arm job, with no counterweights. I believe it weighs just 23kg all in (tube, mount, tripod).

Now I'm a pretty big guy who is used to lots of lifting and carrying but I can tell you if it was a case of going up a hill with it regularly, I would not get out very often. I use it in the garden and you'd be ok taking it somewhere in a car but I would not want to carry it far at all. I just know it would make it too tempting to stay on the sofa!!!

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

22 hours ago, Swamp Gas said:

I believe it weighs just 23kg all in (tube, mount, tripod).

Tring Astro quote the total kit weight as 35.4 lbs (16Kg).

I have the C8 and while I wouldn't run up a hill with it either (total weight 15Kg), I can pick up the whole assembly and carry it outside without undue effort.

[Swamp Gas]

40 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

Tring Astro quote the total kit weight as 35.4 lbs (16Kg).

I have the C8 and while I wouldn't run up a hill with it either (total weight 15Kg), I can pick up the whole assembly and carry it outside without undue effort.

I'll get the scales out