DSLR or dedicated CCD?

[edarter]

Hi,

Thanks to father Christmas and some other money I've squirreled away I've got approx £450 to spend on either a DSLR or dedicated CCD. What would be my best option in that price range?

I'm still very new to astro photography and I was just considering a dslr as I know my way around them, it also appeals that I could use it as a second dslr when at airshows etc (I would get one suitable for daytime use also). But then it occurred to me that a dedicated CCD may get me further along the astro path.

I'm interested in deep sky, planetary and lunar. Currently unguided but using a sw130 PDS on an NEQ6.

Many thanks 

Ed

[Guest Tuomo]

Im new in AP too. My way will be DSLR, Modded DSLR then astro CCD.

 

[Squiddy]

A used Canon 450D or 1000D, both should be achievable for around £100. An auto guider could fit into the budget also.

When you've learned all you need to get good pictures, you'll probably invest in a comacorrector as well. But see that as a future plan.

[geordie85]

I'd go for an Astro modded DSLR. For your price range you'll struggle to get a decent ccd camera unless maybe an atik 314, or something similar comes up 2nd hand. 

[ollypenrice]

The orthodoxy says start with a DSLR. If you have one, this makes sense since it's free. (You've already bought it.) However, I don't agree with the orthodoxy, necessarily. If I want a chisel I don't sharpen a screwdriver. £450 would buy you a used CCD with Sony 285 chip. Yes, you'd need a manual filter wheel (electric is not necessary) and filters but the smaller sizes come up very cheaply as people sell them to buy larger sizes for larger chips. Until you are into a world of expensive modern modified DSLRs and very fast F ratio optics it is a simple fact that CCD is way better.

Doubtless I'll take some stick for this opinion but I had the same advice from Ian King when I started more than ten years ago and I'm glad I listened.

Olly

[Adam J]

If you litterally only need a camera with that cash get a second hand small form factor CCD, but I am going to guess that you don't have guiding or filters or filterwheel or coma corrector and even with a small chip CCD you will want a coma corrector on a 130pds. So I would say you should pick up a second hand modified 1100D, 450D or 1000D for about 160. Grab a second hand CLS clip filter for about 75 and guide cam for about 120 and CC for about 90. Either that or keep saving as you will need all that and more with a CCD. Take a look in the 130pds thread and see that people are using and their results then decide if you would be happy with similar results.

[edarter]

Should have mentioned that I already have the Baader CC, so that little expense is already done  

I know so little about what is needed foe CCD photography though, sounds like its not just the CCD then? 

[Adam J]

2 hours ago, edarter said:

Should have mentioned that I already have the Baader CC, so that little expense is already done  

I know so little about what is needed foe CCD photography though, sounds like its not just the CCD then? 

Someone like Olly is better off telling you the real minimum requirements for CCD's imaging as I dont own one myself.

But I can tell you is what I am planning to get when I do eventually buy one. Personally I decided that I did not want the hassle of a very small sensor given the targets I am interested in imaging and my scope (also a 130PDS) and so when I do get one it will be no smaller then 3/4 and most likely APS-C and mono, ill have my guiding kit and Narrow band filters from using my DSLR and will just need a electric filter wheel and a RGB filter set to get going.

You can get OSC CCD's that you would not need filters for, but most will tell you that the biggest performance gain is in mono imaging with narrow band and RGB filters. So for me I have taken the view point that I am going to learn guiding processing and all the basics using a DSLR for less than a couple of hundred pounds and then get a proper astro camera when 1) I have saved up for the one I really want + filters and 2) I have the underlying skill set to get the most out of it having paid around 2k for it and the filters (and that is likely to be second hand). Essentially I expect that given the learning curve I would probably just be producing expensive but rubbish CCD images for the first year instead of cheap but rubbish DSLR images. When I upgrade Ill sell the self modified DSLR for more than I paid for it and ill not have lost out financially at all. 

Its all really about your expectations and what level of image you will be happy with, but in my opinion your imaging is likely to be more skill limited than equipment limited at first anyway, when I started only 18 months back I was over the moon with my blurry blown out picture of M42. the difference between that picture and the one I took this year is like night and day but its the same camera. I am still saving for my CCD but I have 18month of imaging experience to apply to it when I do eventually get my hands on it, but even then I will not be producing top draw images like some of these guys for quite some time.

 

[edarter]

Seems a sensible approach Adam. There is certainly a lot to learn from guiding and imaging yet before making that transition to a dedicated ccd so I think a similar approach to you is probably the most suitable for for me also. 

Thanks 

Ed

[iapa]

If you do not already have a DSLR, then look at a mono CCD (or CMOS as these are coming along inlets and bounds) in your price bracket, the NEQ6 will allow you reasonable length exposures unguided.

You can get a lot of details in mono.

Lower noise in your images is also a benefit of these when compared to a DSLR.

You will be in a position to practice improving polar alignment, selecting targets and estimating the best exposure for the different targets (not all are the same ) then get practice in stacking - mainly becoming more demanding in the quality of images that you use for processing. At first you will be tempted to stack everything, but, after time you will  get into looking ant every image to check for trailing, aircraft and UFOs etc. 

After a time you will then want to look as compensating for noise and other 'nasties'. Which is easier to do with mono at first.

Later, add a manual filter wheel and filters, practice some more, then more practice, then you could look at guiding to get longer exposures.

Manual wheel (Manual 5-Position Filter Wheel) and set of LRGB 1.25" filters (ZWO do a set for c£70). These are all entry level items, but can all be sold on at a later date as you progress deeper into the money pit further into this hobby.

Then you can add a guide scope and guide camera.

There are advantages to taking small steps - lower major expenditure at the start, practice practice practice with fewer variables to consider. 

When would you get a DSLR as the first camera? I suppose if you want to take up landscape/portrait photography as well. But, remember that a DSLR is not designed for astrophotography (exceptions Canon 800Da and Nikon D810).

 

[Knight of Clear Skies]

Personally I'd go for a modded DSLR as it could also be used for lens imaging, short focal lengths are the most suitable when unguided. As a random example, this is a single 2 minute exposure with a 50-year old 135mm lens.

Taken from a dark site and quickly processed (colour balance, Gradient Exterminator, selective colour, de-noise).

But it depends what you want to do, if you just want to use the 130 PDS then a CCD in your price range may well be superior. A few options that come to mind:

- Get an unmodded DSLR and get going on broadband targets (galaxies, clusters and reflection nebulae) and a few of the brighter emission nebulae (such as M42) and also have a good daytime camera to enjoy.

- Get a modded DSLR. If you buy second hand then it could be sold on to fund future purchases.

- Go for the CCD.

With any of the above, it's likely that you're going to want to guide the 130 PDS before too long. This is out of your budget for the time being, but I wonder if an ASI 1600MM-Cool would be worth thinking about as an alternative to guiding? It's a CMOS camera with very low read noise, so it works well with short exposures unlike most CCD cameras.

Hope that's of some help and good luck.

[edarter]

Already got an eos 7d and 40d, but wanted something I could get at most / all targets with Ha capability etc. Wouldn't want to get the 7 modded but getting the 40 modded might be an option and spend the saved cash on guiding. 

Opinion seems to be split here then as to whether CCD / modded Dslr is the right next step.

It all seemed so straight forward when I first though ' right, time for a modded dslr'....

[Pompey Monkey]

As others have said in the thread, a DSLR will enable you to learn the ropes. As you already have one, why not practice with that while you save up for a set-point cooled CCD and filter set?

I got a second-hand SBIG STF 8300m and SX filter wheel with Baader L, R, G, B, Ha, OIII and SII 36 mm filters for £1500 last year. It blows the DSLR away when it comes to AP!!!

@ollypenrice is right - tools are made to do a job: DSLR's are for terrestrial photography, set-point cooled CCD's are designed for the particulars of AP.

BTW, your mount and 'scope choice is very much a good start to excellent images.

 

[ollypenrice]

I take the controversial view that mono imaging is easier rather than harder. Of all the images I capture, the easiest ones from which to get a good result are the monochrome H alpha ones. They are easier still if I use an expensive Astrodon Ha filter but the basic Baader 7 nm is good. There is just very little to do to these images. They have LP filtered out at source, they have high contrast and natural sharpness (provided focus was good) and you have no colour gradients to worry about. They do need decent guiding for the longer subs needed but once you can guide for a couple of minutes you can guide indefinitely given good PA. (Once I have my guiding right over two minutes it stays right.)

Olly

[cjdawson]

I'm  with @ollypenrice on this.  If you don't have a camera already, get a the camera that is designed for the task.  Whilst a mono CDC sounds like more work, and indeed you will have a few extra processing steps, you'll get better results.   Not least because you'll be able to focus each colour channel seperatly which mean chromatic adoration won't be an issue for you.

 

a DSLR is a great daytime scope, and yes you can get them modded. But why go to that hassle when you can get a dedicated camera that will ultimately give you better results

[Knight of Clear Skies]

17 hours ago, edarter said:

Already got an eos 7d and 40d, but wanted something I could get at most / all targets with Ha capability etc. Wouldn't want to get the 7 modded but getting the 40 modded might be an option and spend the saved cash on guiding. 

Have you tried using your existing cameras? For a few quid you could get a T-piece and use one to get up and running, this would give you a chance to practise a lot of the skills you'll need while getting decent results on carefully chosen targets.

16 hours ago, Pompey Monkey said:

 

@ollypenrice is right - tools are made to do a job: DSLR's are for terrestrial photography, set-point cooled CCD's are designed for the particulars of AP.

 

DSLRs aren't optimised for AP but are still capable instruments, where they really shine is for budget and portable imaging rigs.

[edarter]

yep - have tried both DSLRs , got  T-Piece etc and Baader CC. I do appreciate I still have an enormous amount to learn that I could do with either of them as is, but I just have in the back of my mind that I could be capturing so much more straight away with either a modded camera or a CCD.

I guess its about getting the best bang for buck really, thats what I did with both the mount and scope, did my research and didn't just go for the cheapest option but one that would allow me to grow in the hobby without the need for further outlay (well short term anyway!). Heart says get a modded DSLR, head says save up more and get a CCD...

Another option may be to stick with the current DSLR and spend the money on a guiding setup. Hmm.....

[iapa]

1 minute ago, edarter said:

yep - have tried both DSLRs , got  T-Piece etc and Baader CC. I do appreciate I still have an enormous amount to learn that I could do with either of them as is, but I just have in the back of my mind that I could be capturing so much more straight away with either a modded camera or a CCD.

I guess its about getting the best bang for buck really, thats what I did with both the mount and scope, did my research and didn't just go for the cheapest option but one that would allow me to grow in the hobby without the need for further outlay (well short term anyway!). Heart says get a modded DSLR, head says save up more and get a CCD...

Another option may be to stick with the current DSLR and spend the money on a guiding setup. Hmm.....

FWIW I started with an existing DSLR (Nikon D90), then added guide scope and QHYCCD 6 mono CCD for guiding.

Then upgraded to a Canon 700D, the Nikon needed replaced anyway. Then Canon 70D (the 700D went a family member for holiday pictures) again second function is astro imaging.

I added a modded 600D for c£200 or so 2nd hand  - my first dedicated astro imaging cam. 

With DSLRs people are producing very good quality images - it a lot around getting the correction done (flats, bias, darks etc. - some do say not to bother with Darks for DSLR and just used flats and BIAS; another discussion :))

Still saving for a dedicated CCD (or one of the newer CMOS) cameras - some 5-6 times the costs of the modded DSLR - mainly to go mono and reduce noise. Having said that I am working on a home-brew cooler for the DSLR to bring the temp down a bit. If successful, may defer the CCD/CMOS purchase.

 

[Knight of Clear Skies]

1 hour ago, edarter said:

I guess its about getting the best bang for buck really, thats what I did with both the mount and scope, did my research and didn't just go for the cheapest option but one that would allow me to grow in the hobby without the need for further outlay (well short term anyway!). Heart says get a modded DSLR, head says save up more and get a CCD...

Another option may be to stick with the current DSLR and spend the money on a guiding setup. Hmm.....

All good options really, it's difficult to say which is best. If you do get the 40D modded I can recommend Cheap Astrophotography who will do so for £75. However, the 40D isn't listed as a supported camera so you might need to query Juan first to see if he would take it.