Looking for a 12x50

[Alfian]

Having eventually conceded that though I prefer to use bino's without specs' and have to use them,  I'm looking for a 12x50 (ish) binocular to replace my Williams Optics 10x50ED.  I like the idea of a little more magnification and the smaller exit.

Good eye relief is a must as is centre  focusing as I want to use for terrestrial viewing as well as astronomical. The WOs are wonderful binoculars but I'm finding that the eye relief though just about sufficient ,  I cannot with my current specs' get sufficiently comfortable enough quickly enough to make the experience as enjoyable as it used to be. In addition they are big and heavy  and when I use them hand held, which I do occasionally, instead of the preferred mono-pod, they give my dodgy shoulder some grief! So I think the WOs will be up for sale sometime soon.

I had pretty much decided on the Nikon Action Ex 12x50, the Pentax which is probably a slightly better bino in some ways being just a bit to arrow in the fov for my liking, although I admit I really like my 20x60s but that's a different kettle of fish altogether. Then of course I come across other possibilities The list therefore, so far is :

Nikon Action Ex 12x50

http://www.uttings.co.uk/p101295-nikon-action-ex-12x50-cf-baa664aa/

The Opticron imagix 12x50. I didn't know there was such a thing but here it is

http://www.uttings.co.uk/p122644-opticron-imagic-tga-wp-12x50-binocluars-30556/

FOV is not that much bigger than the Pentax but iMagics do have a nice reputation.

Celestron Nature DX 12x56. I've read some quite decent comments on this one and the extra aperture (assuming it is "56") could make for a nice binocular.

https://www.thebinocularshop.com/celestron-nature-dx-56mm-binoculars.html

Delta Optical Titanium 12x50. This is an interesting one. I thought maybe it would be the Celestron in different clothes, but  it doesn't seem so. Delta, it would appear have designed this and then commissioned it to be built in China. It has 5 degrees fov and depending on where you look it may have ED glass and given that the price of the list is going up, maybe it should have!

http://www.365astronomy.com/Delta-Optical-Titanium-12x56-ROH-Waterproof-Binocular.html

That's my short list so far is a bit more than I wanted to pay but that said the WOs are now £219 so perhaps I could just manage that.

I don't know whether anyone has any experience of any of the above but comments or  other suggestions would be welcome.

(PS If anyone's interested in the WO's that are in very good condition, I'm open to offers - or a swap indeed with any cash adjustment deemed necessary - now that's a thought!)

[Charic]

Its  probably just my face (were not all perfect!) but of all the binoculars that have had the pleasure of holding, the Nikon Extreme 10x50s were just not comfortable up to the eyes. There appeared to be  enough pupillary distance, but something was just not right? A good friend  of mine was was after some binoculars so I asked him to try the same pair locally, possibly receiving my 10x50s at a give away price, but he too found something not quite right, so I`m not alone! I sold them on ebay and the buyer was happy, so just from my experience, the extremes are not for me, even the second time round in London, I took another peek through them in-store, still the same.
If you can try instore first, all the better, but if you buy online, you can always return them.

Your William Optics ED 10x50s were once on my wanted list, but in the end I settled for the Strathspey marine 10x50s.  I also  had concerns about centre focusing, but after a night session on the Stars, followed by a day session from above one of my harbours, I noted that I did not need to re-focus, such was the depth of field with these binoculars,  so looking down at the fishermen, all clearly coucused too my eyes, across the water to the mountains, and mil jests in the sky, all in focus, so pretty much correctly set up, and if on a cold day or night, wearing thick mits/gloves, no focusing to worry about?plus there pretty rugged and waterproof, these were bought for every day use under any conditions only requiring adjustment for very close observations.

I recently purchased some Helios Stellar 15x70 premium optics to compare against my poorer Revelation Astro's, yet from a darker site, the Revelations appear to be offering quite a bit more than I'm used too, so when the weather improves for observing, I`ll be back out testing them some more. 

I note you want to go up in magnification but not in aperture, and I understand your reasons. I went the other way, down in magnification for most of my binocular observations at night, the telescope providing the power  and detail!

[Ben the Ignorant]

http://www.teleskop-austria.at/index.php?produkt=LA12x50exp#m

That whole series of binocs with light gray and dark gray bodies is sold under several brands, and it has good reputation (they also make a 8x45 and a 10x50). My brother bought the 12x50; it's slim, lightweight, I don't remember being bothered by too short or too long an eye relief. What struck me is the near absence of lateral color. We aimed at the theater on the other side of the street, it has large white lamps to light the entrance. Well, despite the intense white brillance the chromatic blur was very, very, discreet.

It has the necessary crescent distortion to keep other aberrations low, but it's great for astronomy because we don't look at walls and tree trunks. The optics are bright, the white light caused almost no ghosting, and it felt comfortable against the face. Except for the rather pronounced crescent effect when you look at landscapes, I can't criticize it. It contains BaK-4 prisms, full multi-coatings, weatherproofing, and a 67° field. Given the cost , I don't know a better 12x50.

[Roy Challen]

I think the reason the Pentax 12x50 FOV is a little narrow is that they put slightly smaller field stops in the eyepieces to sharpen up the edges of the view. I love mine, they're not too heavy - they've been to Kazakhstan and Georgia with me, they're well made and comfortable to hold, good eye-relief, and sharp for 80-85% of the field and the other 15% or so isn't exactly poor either.

Give 'em a go, if you can before you buy.

[Alfian]

Thanks for the replies all.

Charic,  I've read quite a few comments about the Nikons,  for some they are the best thing since ...., others  tend either to not get on with them, or go for the Pentax WPs. Unfortunately the astro' equipment dealers I like to deal with don't stock them so trying before I buy is not really an option.  The Strath Marines are the not C/F but the waterproof are and both are 10x50. Interestingly the Strath' waterproof certainly look like the Lacertas that Ben' has linked to. What you say about the telescope giving you the power and the detail, I agree. Amongst my scopes I have a very nice 80mm/f7.5 achro that is great for widefield (and not so) views and it has stopped me looking at bigger binos, 20x80 or 25x100, so far! I really do, though,  need to fill that bino gap! 

Ben' , thanks for that link, I have not seen that site before. Those Lacertas are very keenly priced! They look as mentioned like the Straths which I think are United Optics BW7 series. If so they will almost certainly not be 50mm maybe 45mm. Holger Merlitz measured the 8x45 as a 40mm but still a pretty respectable performer.

Roy,  having the Pentax 20x60s and knowing how well they perform (once you get the knack) constantly brings me back to the 12x50WPs, but  4.2 degrees degrees does seem a tad narrow for my purposes. Mmm you've  got me thinking! I do tend to use my Vortex 6.5x32s for wide sweeps.  I know I could probably presume upon FLOs good services and try both the Pentax and Celestron out if it comes to it  - but  I feel awkwardly reluctant to do that even though many would.

Food for thought as always.

[Telescope40]

Hi. My tupenny's worth. I've a pair of the Pentax WF's. 12 x 50's.  Love em. 

Hope you find the pair that ticks the boxes. 

 

Regards. John 

 

[Alfian]

There has been something of a twist in this search for a 12x50, after a somewhat trying visit to an opthalmologist  yesterday, indicating a scar on my left eyeball. This may or may not give rise to my difficulties with the 10x50s, so for the moment at least I'm having a longer think about it. I think I'll start a relevant thread in the astrolounge. Thanks again everyone.

[dobbie]

Hi alfian where abouts in West Yorkshire are you ? I have a pair of pentax waterproof binoculars 12x50 you could borrow them to see if they are OK before you buy,, i am in Leeds on the outskirts York side , regards John. 

[Alfian]

58 minutes ago, dobbie said:

Hi alfian where abouts in West Yorkshire are you ? I have a pair of pentax waterproof binoculars 12x50 you could borrow them to see if they are OK before you buy,, i am in Leeds on the outskirts York side , regards John. 

Hi John, thats incredibly kind of you. I live near Halifax some way off but perhaps  might be able sort something out. If you want you could  have a loan of the Williams Optics 10x50EDs to see what you make of them. I'll send PM.

[Charic]

8 hours ago, Alfian said:

................. may or may not give rise to my difficulties with the 10x50s............

Not just 10x50's? I hope you find a solution.

[Alfian]

Hi Charic, thank you for your good wishes.  I had an interesting day with the binos yesterday afternoon and evening. I rarely use the WOs for terrestrial views because of the weight and moreover the stiffness of the individual focus, i tend to leave them set for astro use. Yesterday afternoon though I was looking around the open countryside around me. They never fail to impress with such a bright sharp and expansive image.  What struck me anew was the depth of focus and this reminded me of your comments about the Strathspey Marines. I did need to focus for the mid distance but the depth is impressive.  I didn't really have major problems in using them, though I'm sure the reduced exit pupil will have made life easier.

In the evening with pretty decent skies for a while,until a mist rolled in, I was out with the 6.5x 32 Vortex Raptors (super little binos) and the WOs. I got typically super sharp views with the WOs, but again just cannot get that comfortable feeling with as I once did. The Raptors on other hand are fine, indeed it surprised me, perhaps contradicting my earlier comments to an extent, what I could see. M31 is an easy target but the visible extent was good. Star Clusters in Auriga also easy to pick out  (little no detail of course) and M42 small but OK. 

The Raptors have 20mm of eye relief so using specs not an issue but also reduced exit pupil cannot be too much of an issue. What  I have realised is that the binos I'm comfortable with not only have long eye relief but also fairly small afov eyepieces. The Pentax 20x60s are 44 degrees and the Raptors are  about 51 degrees. I have a couple of  68 degree EPs that I use with my' scopes and though good and useful, I am much more comfortable using 52 and 55 degree EPs. (No Naglers for me!) So maybe amongst other things its just the big eyepieces and the marginal eye relief that I'm struggling with.

I think my concluision is  is that with age and changing eyesight and a little bit of damage thrown in for good measure,  if I  aim at binos with smaller afaovs and perhaps a reduced exit and good eye relief, I should be OK.

The Pentax 12x50s do fit that bill.  But if I was to seek just a replacement for the WOs then The Opticron Imagics look good particularly the 10x42s. From 12x60s to 10x42s thats an interesting journey!

[Putaendo Patrick]

Last year I bought a pair of Vortex Diamondback 12x50 and have been very pleased with them - so if you like the Raptors, these might be worth considering: http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-diamondback-12x50-binocular

[Alfian]

59 minutes ago, Putaendo Patrick said:

Last year I bought a pair of Vortex Diamondback 12x50 and have been very pleased with them - so if you like the Raptors, these might be worth considering: http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-diamondback-12x50-binocular

Thanks 'Patrick, that is another option but the price is pushing it a little. Vortex do have a good reputation.

[Charic]

2 hours ago, Alfian said:

I think my concluision is  is that with age and changing eyesight and a little bit of damage thrown in for good measure,  if I  aim at binos with smaller afaovs and perhaps a reduced exit and good eye relief, I should be OK.

If the  eye damage is in the wrong place, it would suggest to me that you would suffer when  looking at anything or through anything.!
For low light levels, its preferable to have large/larger objectives to capture the lower  light levels, but the associated higher magnifications bring with it a visual unsteadiness, which requires additional support  due to the weight and magnification.
What I can suggest is to match an exit pupil from a binocular that closely matches your present entry pupil. This should afford you  the brightest image, whatever the power, and the image kept rock solid by  resting/supporting with a tripod ( I even mount my 8x40s for better views), and quite often, the field of view is set by the binoculars eyepiece designer?

My 8x40s are just over 8° AOV.  they provide me with an exit of 5mm, I'm advised that I have an average 4.9mm pupil,  and that I have smaller than average pupils for my age? They work just fine for my needs, you will find whats right, just  keep searching.

[Alfian]

Hi Charic,  regarding eye damage, and I really do wish I'd asked the relevant questions at the time, I'm assuming the small scar I have is not outside my peripheral vision, otherwise why would I be referred to the opthalmologist. On the other hand the Opthalmologist said my vision would not be affected so I'm assuming (??) that its maybe not in a vital position. Maybe its so minor its an irrelevance that my vision does not see. In any event there is nothing to be done, but  given the issue with binos I had wondered whether there was a connection. 

Regarding exit pupil, I've never measured mine, but given the nice views I get in the Raptors I'd be surprised if its too much less than 5mm.  I'm with you on mounting binoculars. There's an article somewhere on CN (Edz?) measuring the difference visually between mounted and unmounted.

In terms of my "search"  given the revised spec I'm looking for I think I've pretty well narrowed it down, so I think I'll get something sorted out pretty soon. Thanks for time and comments Charic.

[Alfian]

Something of a post script to this this thread, see new thread: " Partially unscrewed eyepiece cup. (BA8 10x50)"