USB Cable curse.... Thinking of Mini PC

[timfuller]

Had a total mare last night. My set up that has been working really well for the last few sessions threw a total wobble.....

I use a 10m USB active repeater extension and a powered 4 Port USB hub. 

Last night i kept getting timeout error from EQMod and could not get to the bottom of why. I tried logically working my way through all the possible failure points but gacve up after about 2 hrs and numerous restarts :-(

How do most people deal with the USB Cable/Hub situation ? It seems that whilst convenient USB is not a particularly robust physical connection.

I am thinking that a Mini PC at the mount and then Cat5/6 and remote connection via RDP would be a good solution. This would allow me to get rid of the USB hub and cable. Has anyone done this ?

[Demonperformer]

You might find either of these threads useful:

HTH

[SteveNickolls]

Have a look in https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dcomputers&field-keywords=Quotom for some idea of mini pc's :-) There's also an Astro Imaging Channel You Tube video of the use of one of these pc's.

Cheers,
Steve

[Dr_Ju_ju]

Active usb cables are always problematical, follow the links for powered USB hubs, and\or site a PC locally. I bought\built a local pc based on a micro MSI board with a P5 & 16GB mem & 250GB disk. But I also bought an over the top power supply for it, which also powers mount, any hubs (1 for Arduino control stuff), camera etc...  all mounted in an waterproof case via Amazon

[cjdawson]

I'd say try to get rid of the sctive repeater cable.  Those thing are more trouble than they are worth from my experience.

At the minimum you could get something that turns the USB signal to ethernet, don't know any details but do know they exist.  For low bandwidth applications a PI would do the job.  For running a camera you'd need a father Ethernet connection.

[Gina]

The USB specification says that USB connections are only suitable for use indoors - they are not suitable for use in garages, sheds or outhouses or anywhere where there is a possibility of dampness.  So where does that leave us - right in the "brown stuff"!!!   There are "industrial" versions of the USB connection.  These have external screws to hold the connectors together - like the monitor and serial/parallel connectors on desktop computers.  I have a powered USB hub like this - StarTech - not cheap but worth it to help avoid all the usual problems we get with this totally unsuitable form of connection.  Trouble is, nearly all astro equipment does NOT have this facility.

USB??? - bane of my life!! 

[Macavity]

Or, alternatively, buy an extender cable from people who understand timing / buffering?
I know it goes against the prevailing  opinion here, but it works well for me!  
Driving EQMod (remote focusing etc.) over 30m Cat5.

ttp://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/cat5/usb-1-1-rv-1850/Cat 5 Cable.

I do concede that 10m is not perhaps making best use of the above. There are other
methods! A no-moving parts PC might be mine, if I needed USB 2.0+ for imaging.
(Costs of long-distance "extending" increase significantly with enhanced speeds)

P.S. I ALSO hate USB connectors. I buy short extension cables as "port savers" and
try never to connect / disconnect the end connectors... Still make me nervous tho.

[ChrisLX200]

2 hours ago, cjdawson said:

I'd say try to get rid of the sctive repeater cable.  Those thing are more trouble than they are worth from my experience.

At the minimum you could get something that turns the USB signal to ethernet, don't know any details but do know they exist.  For low bandwidth applications a PI would do the job.  For running a camera you'd need a father Ethernet connection.

Cheap repeater cables are usually rubbish - and I've had a few, but I bought the 15M version of this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B011RCUEUA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1 which is USB3 and it has performed flawlessly. It has my USB3 ASI178MM AllSky camera on the end of it and I get full fps rate with no dropped frames. The amazing thing is, it is supposed to be powered at the remote end but once I forgot to plug the power lead into it, and yet it still worked perfectly! So now I don't bother with additional power and just use it straight - plugged into a USB3 port on the back of the computer (none of these repeater cables like working through hubs much). A quick squirt with ACF50 on the connectors keeps moisture out so the pins don't corrode, something I do with all my cables, and I've never had an issue with a poor USB connection even under the worst conditions.

ChrisH

[riklaunim]

Many amateur observatories or backyard setups have remote control with remote desktop on a PC that is next to the setup.

And in this case picking Raspberry Pi isn't a good option - what's the reason to loose all Windows astro-applications and loose proper USB and Ethernet/WiFi support with full bandwidth ? There is a lot of nettops that can do the job and are cheap.

[Gina]

I don't find Windows apps all that good - quite the opposite in fact!  I find the RPi 3 runs faster than my Win7 desktop.  OK it doesn't have USB3 but for DSO imaging that's not necessary.  The RPi with added keyboard and trackball plus small cheap TV set with HDMI for monitor makes a pretty good home computer for the more usual things like web browsing, email, office stuff etc.  Or add a touchscreen to use like a tablet.  Doubt it could cope with PixInsight though   But that needs a pretty darn good PC.  Also, you can use multiple RPi 3s for distributed processing if needed.

[riklaunim]

1 hour ago, Gina said:

I don't find Windows apps all that good - quite the opposite in fact!

There are no non-Windows alternative to FireCapture - in terms of usability, features and UI (there are other recording apps, but they always lack something). There are no non-Windows alternative to Nebulosity in terms of ease of capture and full processing capabilities (there are some DS imaging apps but still they lack something or the whole processing side). Only PHD has a Linux native version.

And distributing any task among multiple computers isn't an easy task to do to be efficient. And the software must be written for it in mind. So no, I don't see a point in enforcing people to using a ARM single board computer running ARM based Linux that wasn't even meant to be used as a consumer device by non-techology and non-linux aware users.

[Gina]

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything!  It's up to everyone to do what they feel most comfortable with and which they think is best for them.  I was just saying what I think and feel.  I'm me - I like to be different if I can and try new things (or not so new).  If you don't like my opinion it doesn't bother me but OTOH I haven't said I hate you for your opinion - I'm more than happy if you like Windows and the apps that go with it.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[Demonperformer]

11 minutes ago, riklaunim said:

So no, I don't see a point in enforcing people to using a ARM single board computer running ARM based Linux that wasn't even meant to be used as a consumer device by non-techology and non-linux aware users.

How is Gina's comment forcing anyone to do anything? It is merely expressing an opinion, albeit one with which you choose to disagree.

EDIT: posted at the same time as Gina's response.

[timfuller]

Thanks everone for the responses. Been away with work for a few days.

I think I am heading down the path of designing an all in one Mini PC with the USB connections that Gina mentions. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/usb-cable-assemblies/4686349/

I think I will 3D print a case that allows me to have a PC with 6 USB then also power connectors for the Mount/Camera/Guider/Dew heaters.

I will then only need CAT5/6 connection and Power.

Better get on with designing it.... :-)

[graemlourens]

A quick and easy setup was for me always to have a not too expensive laptop that was just below the mount (when i was still mobile without obsy) and running teamviewer. 

Cover the laptop or computer with a cloth though (not closing the air vents) or else you'll have dew forming on it like crazy (especially if the cover is from metal). Those dew drops can kill you're device if they drop down to the wrong place

My experience with USB Cables, even now in my stationary obsy, is that they are mostly the fault for everything. If you then combine long usb cables and cheap usb to serial adapter you will definitively have 'ghost problems' as i called them. Randomly stuff not working. Also USB Hubs took a lot of my time until i started separating high volume usb lines (guidecamera etc) from other. Especially most devices are not 'earthed' (don't know the correct name for it) and actually have voltage running over their outer shell back on to your computer, that can disturb the signal of other devices. Its really not a great connection for astrophotography with our sensitive devices... :/

Kind regards, Graem

[SonnyE]

My solution to date is to have my wiring loomed, coming to a powered USB hub, and my laptop connected by a single short 36" USB cable. Why?

Well, the advent of mini computers certainly does give an appealing option, but I'm making do for now. And my Laptop will WiFi to my desktop computer for chilly nights.

I used port-powered USB hubs before a friend advised me to use a powered hub. The powered hub has worked great for me. No more slowing down, or data collisions, no more camera programs dropping out, just overall a lot happier experience. Since I already had my loom made up I decided to just put the powered hub where the port powered hub was used. And it has worked fine. It is also 12 volt DC powered, (or AC), so it works fine with my big battery. I was a bit reluctant to tear apart my current wiring loom to reconfigure everything, and frankly a bit wary that with a single long USB cable from the hub at the mount I might get the old problems back. So I haven't tried moving the hub to the mount.

Something about having the Laptop at the mount is having the display for doing all the precursor set-up with alignment, guiding, and focusing. Only after everything is set do I move indoors to do my imaging. I do suppose that could be a moot point as the Laptop could as well WiFi to the mini computer, and be carried indoors. The only snafu being my Laptops limited battery capacity for extended uncharged use.

I suppose in the end, there are a lot of ways to arrive at your end result. From wiring, and wireless; to operating platforms (Windows, Apple, Linux), and programs (ad Nauseum). None without some pitfalls and aggravation, nothing is perfect, nor universal to all.

[SkyBound]

How about one of these, I have just bought one, it's a quad core celeron, and you add your own hard drive and RAM, six USB ports and a mini serial port, ideal as a pier mounted nano PC for deep sky work.. for £54

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162213239069?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

amd here is some more info from another website about this model..

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856119099

[russellhq]

First off, USB cables shouldn't be longer than 5m, so there's part of your problem:

http://www.usb.org/developers/usbfaq

Second, if you need 10m, then you should be able to daisy chain 2 off 5m active repeater cables.

There's also another option of using a USB bridge and host controller to extend over an Ethernet cable, see above FAQ.

Devices like the following might help with that:

150ft USB Extender Adapter By CAT5E 6 RJ45 LAN Cable https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00ENH9CSC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_9Yv.xbQX2B71Z