Aligning my Advanced VX = frustration

[BobSki]

Hi all,

I am finding aligning my Advanced VX more than a little frustrating.

I have a South facing garden with little or no view to the North. So, I place my tripod on the patio and, using a compass app on my I-phone, ensure that the alignment pin on the head platform is aligned North and that the whole thing is level. Then I place the mount head on the tripod, ensuring that the Azimuth screws are centred so the mount is aligned North.

Wait for darkness.

Start up the AVX, enter the time, date, time zone etc., then select 2 star alignment. That's when the trouble starts

Every damn star the handset tells me to find is somewhere near the Northern horizon in places I can't access, some not even above our horizon

SO, as I saw Jupiter rising in the East, AHA I thought, lets try the Solar System Alignment thingy. So turn the AVX off and on again, enter all the time,date and time zone etc. again, Select "Solar System Alignment" on the menu and guess what, It asks for blumming MARS and won't let me change it......MARS IS NOWHERE IN SIGHT !!! AAAAARGH 

It really shouldn't be this hard should it? does anyone have any ideas what I'm doing wrong or missing?

 

Cheers folks

BobSki

[Gazabone]

I have frustrations with mine.  It's currently back at Celestron as I diagnosed a Dec motor encoder problem, whilst mine would track quite nicely it wouldn't hold alignment.  However, that does mean I was getting further than you.

 

the handset should give you stacks of options, not just stars in the north.  I can only suggest the obvious;

is your date format in Month, Day, Year order?

i would also suggest setting your location to nearest city rather than Lat/long coordinates  

 

good luck.

 

 

[baggywrinkle]

One thing I have noticed is that many mounts, tripods included, have residual magnetism. It is very marked when the heads are in place as the motor magnets are quite strong.

To avoid that place a batten of wood across the two 'south' legs and place the compass on that then move the mount as required to get magnetic north. Using this method you can also pull the head on the mount, loosen the RA clutch and allow the head to hand freely to the north while aligning.

How are you setting the declination (altitude) of the head?  I use a digital inclinometer and found that gets me within a half degree or better. The scales marked on mounts are not worth the metal they are engraved on. The ones available as an app are again suspect.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B001NPJGL0/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0064EGPXM&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0ZC2P0HCBZD29XN5FXW7

Remember 0.5 Deg is a Lunar diameter, that is a large error.

 

[Physopto]

A small point that may help on the north alignment. You say you use an IPhone. If it has a cover quite often these have a small magnet in them. It will totally screw up your north bearing. The IPhone needs to be taken out of the cover completely, at least that's what I found. I also aligned from well away from the scope. At least twenty feet, because any metal will affect the phones ability. I sight at the centre of the mount to the north, leave a small marker on the ground in line, then adjust the head and legs. It gets me pretty close. To be honest I stopped using the IPhone a while ago because they are just not accurate enough, I just use a good compass, the type hill walkers use. 

Hope you get your problems sorted. 

 

Derek

[Thalestris24]

Hi Bobski

Do enable the real time clock battery (see the manual) - will save you having to re-enter the data each time :).  I don't use the hand controller as such - I prefer computer control via Stellarium/Stellariumscope. So I just select 'last alignment' when I power on, then use Stellarium to slew to a target then platesolving to centre it. Easy  

As for PA, I drift align using the PHD2 tool.

Louise

[PeterCPC]

As said, make sure that you are inputting the data in the way required. Your AVX should then suggest stars for alignment but you don't have to accept the ones suggested, you can scroll down until you find ones that you can see. I used to then do ASPA and could do that in about 10 mins or so and get an error of under 5 mins but I now use Polemaster which is so easy. I can recommend getting SkySync as it will input all your required data for you.
Make sure that it is level and pointing approximately North and follow the instructions exactly and it should be fine. On planetary alignment the AVX should suggest all planets that are in view so, if it did not, there must be an error in your data input.
 Good luck.

Peter

[Rob63]

As Peter says, you don’t have to accept the suggested star/planet. Use the scroll keys ( 6 & 9) to find a visible star/planet and use those for alignment + calibration.

I find a two star align + three calibration stars, followed by an ASPA is pretty accurate for goto and visual observing.

If I am going to be imaging I then go to the home position, switch off and then repeat the process for greater accuracy.

Good luck,

Rob

[BobSki]

11 hours ago, Gazabone said:

I have frustrations with mine.  It's currently back at Celestron as I diagnosed a Dec motor encoder problem, whilst mine would track quite nicely it wouldn't hold alignment.  However, that does mean I was getting further than you.

 

the handset should give you stacks of options, not just stars in the north.  I can only suggest the obvious;

is your date format in Month, Day, Year order?

i would also suggest setting your location to nearest city rather than Lat/long coordinates  

 

good luck.

 

 

Hi Gazabone, I'm sure it is set correctly for the UK but I'll check again, thanks for the suggestion.

[BobSki]

2 hours ago, baggywrinkle said:

One thing I have noticed is that many mounts, tripods included, have residual magnetism. It is very marked when the heads are in place as the motor magnets are quite strong.

To avoid that place a batten of wood across the two 'south' legs and place the compass on that then move the mount as required to get magnetic north. Using this method you can also pull the head on the mount, loosen the RA clutch and allow the head to hand freely to the north while aligning.

How are you setting the declination (altitude) of the head?  I use a digital inclinometer and found that gets me within a half degree or better. The scales marked on mounts are not worth the metal they are engraved on. The ones available as an app are again suspect.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B001NPJGL0/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0064EGPXM&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0ZC2P0HCBZD29XN5FXW7

Remember 0.5 Deg is a Lunar diameter, that is a large error.

 

hi baggywrinkle,

 

I set my tripod up for north alignment using the azimuth adjustment post (and also for level) without the head being near the tripod, however I take your point about the magnetism. I also currently use my iPhone app as a compass/bubble level. Perhaps I should purchase a "proper" compass and level.

Declination I was/am currently using the metal strip on the side of the head. I'll get a better inclinometer.

Having said that, I don't think these issues are going to resolve my problem. I can understand these issues building in errors with the tracking AFTER the 2 star or solar system alignment but I don't get to that stage as the only stars/planets I seem to be offered for alignment are in obstructed areas of the sky, so I don't even get to start with tracking.

[BobSki]

2 hours ago, Physopto said:

A small point that may help on the north alignment. You say you use an IPhone. If it has a cover quite often these have a small magnet in them. It will totally screw up your north bearing. The IPhone needs to be taken out of the cover completely, at least that's what I found. I also aligned from well away from the scope. At least twenty feet, because any metal will affect the phones ability. I sight at the centre of the mount to the north, leave a small marker on the ground in line, then adjust the head and legs. It gets me pretty close. To be honest I stopped using the IPhone a while ago because they are just not accurate enough, I just use a good compass, the type hill walkers use. 

Hope you get your problems sorted. 

 

Derek

Hi Derek,

Blimey, how silly am I? I hadn't even thought about the magnet in the phones case. I had though, decided that the phone wasn't likely to be accurate enough. Compass/bubble level now my shopping list.

[baggywrinkle]

If you scroll through the list you should be able to find other stars to use.

What I dislike is that Celestron use the Greek/Arabic names and not the constellation and greek letter to ID the stars. Not easy.

[BobSki]

2 hours ago, Thalestris24 said:

Hi Bobski

Do enable the real time clock battery (see the manual) - will save you having to re-enter the data each time :).  I don't use the hand controller as such - I prefer computer control via Stellarium/Stellariumscope. So I just select 'last alignment' when I power on, then use Stellarium to slew to a target then platesolving to centre it. Easy  

As for PA, I drift align using the PHD2 tool.

Louise

oooh errr Louise, that's all a bit space-age for me at the moment. I've got Stellarium on both my laptop and I-pad but have never tried to set it up to control a scope. I'm getting into enough trouble trying to use the AVX Lord knows what would happen if I tried to use computers and stellarium

I WILL find the section on enabling the real time clock battery and sort that out first thanks for reminding me about that as I had completely overlooked it.

[BobSki]

1 hour ago, PeterCPC said:

As said, make sure that you are inputting the data in the way required. Your AVX should then suggest stars for alignment but you don't have to accept the ones suggested, you can scroll down until you find ones that you can see. I used to then do ASPA and could do that in about 10 mins or so and get an error of under 5 mins but I now use Polemaster which is so easy. I can recommend getting SkySync as it will input all your required data for you.
Make sure that it is level and pointing approximately North and follow the instructions exactly and it should be fine. On planetary alignment the AVX should suggest all planets that are in view so, if it did not, there must be an error in your data input.
 Good luck.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Trying 2 star alignment, I could use the scroll keys but scrolling down individually, I tried so many and all were out of viewing range. when I tried Solar System align, all I got was Mars, the scroll keys did nothing.

Polemaster looks excellent, but I can't see Polaris from my viewing point, it is just below the roofline of my house.

Skysync looks like it should be on my shopping list too. (The wife will kill me)

 

I would like to sincerely thank every one of you who have made all these helpful suggestions, it is honestly, very much appreciated. Hopefully I'll learn more at SGL XI too.

[BobSki]

Peter stated above that there could be an error in my input data and I'm sure he's right. There are two things which I find frustrating at the moment:

TIME ZONE MAP:
Page 14 of my manual states "refer to the time zone map in appendix for further information" which would have been great if they had bothered to include a time zone map but they didn't, the only appendix in my manual is appendix A - Technical Spec. So I referred to the internet, found a time zone map and confirmed my  belief that we here in the uK are in time zone ZERO, which I think on the NexStar HC translates to "universal time" Am I wrong in that assumption?

REAL TIME CLOCK BATTERY:
I can't find one. There is no reference to it in the manual and Google has NOT been my friend. I have found many images of NexStar + hand controllers but nothing indicating where this battery is housed. Can anyone help me as to where the elusive battery is hiding please?

[Thalestris24]

11 minutes ago, BobSki said:

Peter stated above that there could be an error in my input data and I'm sure he's right. There are two things which I find frustrating at the moment:

TIME ZONE MAP:
Page 14 of my manual states "refer to the time zone map in appendix for further information" which would have been great if they had bothered to include a time zone map but they didn't, the only appendix in my manual is appendix A - Technical Spec. So I referred to the internet, found a time zone map and confirmed my  belief that we here in the uK are in time zone ZERO, which I think on the NexStar HC translates to "universal time" Am I wrong in that assumption?

REAL TIME CLOCK BATTERY:
I can't find one. There is no reference to it in the manual and Google has NOT been my friend. I have found many images of NexStar + hand controllers but nothing indicating where this battery is housed. Can anyone help me as to where the elusive battery is hiding please?

Hi

RTC - under 'Utilities' on the hand controller (p24 of avx manual)

Louise

[BobSki]

Oh for crying out loud!!

Thank You Louise. I have now enabled the RTC within the menu on the handset. I presume there must be a physical battery somewhere within the handset to help retain this information, however, for the life of me I can't find a battery compartment for it. Am I really being this stupid??

 

[Thalestris24]

8 minutes ago, BobSki said:

Oh for crying out loud!!

Thank You Louise. I have now enabled the RTC within the menu on the handset. I presume there must be a physical battery somewhere within the handset to help retain this information, however, for the life of me I can't find a battery compartment for it. Am I really being this stupid??

 

Hi

It's tucked away in the actual mount though I've not yet had to try and access it yet. I guess it lasts a long time. My mount has been more switched off than on over the last 6 months and it's been ok. I've had the mount over a year now. I do find I have to make a small time adjustment when it's unpowered for a while. You'd think they'd have included a small section about it in the body of the manual - but they didn't!

Louise

[BobSki]

Thanks Louise, I was just about to get a set of small screw drivers out to dismantle the handset in order to try and find it.

I've had my mount just under a year but unfortunately, due to British weather and 2 shoulder operations, it has only been switched on about 5 times and every time, I've had to resort to just manually using the motor direction keys as I've never been able to align the damn thing.

I'm trying to get to grips with it so I don't look like too much of a muppet at SGL XI

[PeterCPC]

I am sure that your problem lies in the data input. If the AVX does not show Jupiter when it is there then something must be incorrect with the data. Remember the American time convention is not day/month/year.

Skysync takes away all these issues.

Peter

[Droogie 2001]

As Peter says the date and time are vital. Remember we are on Standard time at the moment as well, that always causes fun when the clocks change. Is you location correct on the mount? I use Lon / Lat co-ordinates but if you are near a city then one of those should be fine.
I always set the time from fresh I found on my mount that it is not good a keeping accurate time. You say your mount offers you star which are below the horizon? Check you Filter Limits (P18) to ensure it is not displaying the entire database.

Like you have said on using a phone as a compass is no good you need a good quality hiking compass. Don't go really cheap or you may find that the needle will end up jamming up after no time at all.

The other point is as a lot of the others have said. You do not need to accept the stars it offers you. The mount of course no idea what the landscape is around you so if it just offering ideal ones. I think you will find when you start it will offer either a star in the East or West you will see this noted on the handset with the letters E or W in the corner. If you press Celestron logo button (bottom left button on the handset) it will toggle to East (or the opposite West) if you press it again then the E and W should disappear. This means you can the select any star you want. Though even the handset will still  filter out ones it knows are below the horizon etc.

If all else fails reset the mount to factory defaults I have done this loads of times and has sorted issues out.
Lastly DO NOT UPDATE THE FIRMWARE at the moment. At least do not so this if you want to use ASCOM software with the mount I.e. Attaching it to a PC. There is known bug with the current firmware, one which I have personally had to deal with...
 

[BobSki]

Right, so, Inclinometer as in Baggywrinkle's post above, Suunto A 30 L CM compass and W4 target level all ordered. That should take care of getting the mount properly levelled and aligned. RTC enabled as per Louis' instructions. Time/date location correctly set via Nexstar handset. The only trouble now is that there is a flipping great light in the sky, so I can't see the alignment stars!!

[Physopto]

3 hours ago, BobSki said:

Hi Derek,

Blimey, how silly am I? I hadn't even thought about the magnet in the phones case. I had though, decided that the phone wasn't likely to be accurate enough. Compass/bubble level now my shopping list.

I did exactly the same originally Doh!

Then it dawned as you use the IPhone and the flap on the cover is wobbling all over the place it keeps altering the North point as well as everything else. These things are sent to frustrate us mere mortals!

A  proper electronic inclinometer is a great idea. Axminster sell a good one. BUT it has a magnetic base, not so good!!

Any magnetic instrument put even close to a mount that has steel components will induce some magnetic field in the components.

I had an argument (friendly) with a technician many years ago in a University  workshop. He insisted that Stainless Steel was none magnetic especially 306. So he tried to stick a neodymium magnet to a length of Stainless to prove his point. So we had to scrap that as a small field was induced in the material and go out and buy more. The only way to check if a material has a small magnetic field induced in it either permanently or temporarily without causing any more, is to use a magnetometer. (Stainless steel has iron in it and the iron crystal structure is surrounded by Chromium making it basically rust proof).

A compass can detect very small effects that is why I say move well clear of the mount when using a compass. At star camps I try to avoid even a car being near, dificult.

 

Derek

[Thalestris24]

1 hour ago, BobSki said:

Right, so, Inclinometer as in Baggywrinkle's post above, Suunto A 30 L CM compass and W4 target level all ordered. That should take care of getting the mount properly levelled and aligned. RTC enabled as per Louis' instructions. Time/date location correctly set via Nexstar handset. The only trouble now is that there is a flipping great light in the sky, so I can't see the alignment stars!!

Hiya

Um, what you can do is run stellarium to see what stars are around and where they are. Then tell the mount to go to an easily visible star eg Aldeberan is due east, alt 20 deg just now. Obviously you can't actually see the star during the day but you can judge where it should be and where the mount should point to. That way you can tell if there are any glaring errors in your setup. When setting up properly, you don't need to point exactly north - maybe just within +/- 5 deg should be fine (I think!) - just so long as it's easily within the azimuth adjustment limits when you come to do PA, though even then you can just move the tripod a tad if it's out.

Louise

[BobSki]

Just found out that stellarium doesn't like my laptop which has been updated to windows 10. It says something about a problem with my open gl subsystems. Researching that tells me the graphics card drivers are not compatible with stellarium but there are no new drivers for my laptop 

crickey Derek, that inclinometer I've just ordered has a magnetic base. AAAAAAARRRRGH 

 

[Thalestris24]

40 minutes ago, BobSki said:

Just found out that stellarium doesn't like my laptop which has been updated to windows 10. It says something about a problem with my open gl subsystems. Researching that tells me the graphics card drivers are not compatible with stellarium but there are no new drivers for my laptop 

crickey Derek, that inclinometer I've just ordered has a magnetic base. AAAAAAARRRRGH 

 

Hi

If you do a search on here (or maybe look on stellarium.org) I'm sure there'll be a solution to that problem

Louise