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[Charic]

Is there an Astro Dr in the forum, is this normal? I seem to be in a state of not requiring/needing any new equipment?  yet all this Month, and leading up to this Month, I have been trying hard to persuade myself that I need something bigger, better, faster!. I have seriously been thinking  it's now or never to upgrade from the 8" to the 12". But from simulations alone, it appears to me, that there is not a massive deal of difference between the two systems, for the outlay required to make the change, although the 12" should be more capable,  its just that the simulations don't wow me!

That said, my eyes are getting older, the street lighting is back to serious,  due to the gales removing all the foliage from the trees,  can  the 12" be any better from the same site,  who knows? The 12" will capture more light, see fainter objects, providing more brightness, detail, but surely not from my observatory under the same conditions.

A bigger telescope and new Delos eyepieces all sounds very good, but if the conditions don't allow, why should I bother with the expense for so little gain! The 8" is so much, much  better  when used at a darker site,  but the effort, planning and the weather all fight to delay those trips away from home. I want to use the telescope from the backyard, not to travel, yet  I have some of the most  wonderful  non-polluted areas nearby, and  taking the Binoculars is sometimes all I need, but taking the scope can be an issue, not impossible, just an issue.

If the 12" could provide at home, what the 8" provides away, then I still may reconsider some future option ( although a practical test in situ is still required ). The only concern I have with my Skyliner is the apparent  image  size, i.e.  when viewing Jupiter.  If I could have double the image size  for the same eyepieces............

I'm still messing about with some Plossl eyepieces,  comparing brands , and only one brand will remain, in addition to the Starguiders,  but just for now, with cash in hand, I'm  feeling  content with my set-up.

Maybe the clouds will  now disappear 

[MAN or ASTROMAN]

Interesting post Charic,and one I have to agree with to a certain extent!

 Like almost any other hobby that involves equipment of some sort (and that probably includes most hobbies),there is always the temptation of something 'Bigger,Better,Faster' (and shinier?) as you so very aptly put it.

 Astronomy is no exception.

  At the moment,I keep thinking about getting some 8x40 Bins.Do I NEED them?

  Probably NOT,is the realistic answer!

[John]

Seeing for yourself is THE only way to tell to be honest with you. Simulations just can't do it. The visual astronomy experience is affected by so many factors that can't be simulated. 

If you are content and enjoying what you have though, thats great.

I've found pushing myself and the stuff I currently have has been enjoyable and I've found that I can go quite a bit further and fainter than I thought I could. Up until a year or so ago I now realise that I was not getting as much as I could from observing. Now I'm getting more and there is probably still more to come, but I'll need to work at it

[Charic]

Interesting post Charic,and one I have to agree with to a certain extent!

 Like almost any other hobby that involves equipment of some sort (and that probably includes most hobbies),there is always the temptation of something 'Bigger,Better,Faster' (and shinier?) as you so very aptly put it.

 Astronomy is no exception.

  At the moment,I keep thinking about getting some 8x40 Bins.Do I NEED them?

  Probably NOT,is the realistic answer!

.......if it helps, I couldn't do without my Helios 8x40s now, nice optics, with +8° fov  

If it wasn't  for First Light Optics giving them away  ( for a small fee ? )  I would still be wondering?  I almost bought  the 10x50's same brand, in the end I wanted something that said  'water proof', 'mil-spec',  tough ect, and my Marine 10x50s filled that slot. 

There are times when the eye is not at the eyepiece, so sitting back with the 8x40s is quite a thrill.........Its like TRON! up there, watching / tracking  the satellites!

[kev]

I love sitting in a deck chair with bins staring at a gorgeous starry night.

Sent from my iPhone so excuse the typos!

[bomberbaz]

I know exactly where you are coming from. Last year l had a conversation qith myself (as you do) about getting a 16" dob then l thought about practicalities and decided that l am at my limit.

Maybe l will get something bigger in the future but the 12" is a keeper even if l did.

[gooseholla]

My first scope was an 8" and I upgraded it to a 12". Believe me, there is a big difference!

[MAN or ASTROMAN]

My first scope was an 8" and I upgraded it to a 12". Believe me, there is a big difference!

 Somewhere,on SGL there is a very good diagram of various sized Dobs,with a Human figure to scale.

 It gives a very clear indication of the great leap in size from a 6-8 inch Dob and the 'Lightbuckets'!

[fondofchips]

Interesting post Charic,and one I have to agree with to a certain extent!

 Like almost any other hobby that involves equipment of some sort (and that probably includes most hobbies),there is always the temptation of something 'Bigger,Better,Faster' (and shinier?) as you so very aptly put it.

 Astronomy is no exception.

  At the moment,I keep thinking about getting some 8x40 Bins.Do I NEED them?

  Probably NOT,is the realistic answer!

My Opticron 8 x 42 bins have had so much use they are showing signs of wear and tear now, a really handy size to have.

Charic is right on equipment, you can upgrade too often and then not get the most out of the equipment.  I've recently changed to video astronomy and intend to squeeze out every last drop of it's performance.

So no upgrades for a while, just using the kit.

Cheers, and Clear Skies.

Fondofchips.

[gooseholla]

 Somewhere,on SGL there is a very good diagram of various sized Dobs,with a Human figure to scale.

 It gives a very clear indication of the great leap in size from a 6-8 inch Dob and the 'Lightbuckets'!

[MAN or ASTROMAN]

I blame Charic for my hankering for 8x40's

  I keep reading his positive  comments on the Helios Naturesports!

    THAT'S the diagram!

      Good work, Gooseholla!

[Charic]

I blame Charic for my hankering for 8x40's

  I keep reading his positive  comments on the Helios Naturesports!

John has positive thoughts too  ( here  from another thread)  ............

John, on 04 Jul 2015 - 8:32 PM, said:

We have a pair of the Helios Naturesport 8x40's. My son used them for his wildlife trips to Sri Lanka and South Africa. They seem well made and of nice optical quality. They are robust as well because they were not treated too gently on my sons trips but came back unscathed 

My son seems to have got the best binos out of the lot of us - my wife and I have charity shop specials for our birding. My wifes are Zeiss though so quite nice, if a little battered.

 

I`m not saying 8x40's have to be Helios   there are other brands on the market, but the results I see through the Helios  suit my needs, and they were so cheap when I bought them, I simply had to try them, Thanks FLO.

I spent so long / too long looking for my 10x50s   that I almost  ended up buying   Fujinon's  during my shopping  trip to London,  just to say to myself  I now have the best,  as so many  other 10x50s are often  compared too the FMTs? but in all honesty I think the Helios 10x50's would have still suited my needs at only  a fraction of the cost. The only reason the Strathspey Marines entered the fray was because of the early reports from Steve Tonkin,  and  not only that, the retailer is literally next door to me (  well almost , up here in Scotland) so I could have driven to see the optics first hand (try before you buy ) and something inside  me kept telling me to try them?  I was offered more than the 10x50s to trial, and nearly bought both? Its just that the 8x40s I own  have a little more field of view over the 7x50 Marines, but nevertheless, the 7x50s were good  very too. I already own an old pair of 7x50s so there was no need to buy any more, the 8x40s  covering the wide angle view, and the 10x50xs just felt right., plus their  mil-spec designation? (still not located a spec sheet yet! ) In the little time owned, I  have tried them twice, night time, and daytime. So far so good.

 

 

 

 

[Charic]

My first scope was an 8" and I upgraded it to a 12". Believe me, there is a big difference!

I would agree, size, weight, cost, light capture......however from the same  light polluted site, I would really need to test side-by-side, to see visually if the performance improves.

On paper the 8" comes out second, no doubt, but in real life, under the same conditions ( my conditions are different to yours )  the 12" should  better the 8", but not without viewing the difference first?

I`d hate to order in the 12" only to find the new views are too similar, rather than wow!

[Stu]

I would agree, size, weight, cost, light capture......however from the same light polluted site, I would really need to test side-by-side, to see visually if the performance improves.

On paper the 8" comes out second, no doubt, but in real life, under the same conditions ( my conditions are different to yours ) the 12" should better the 8", but not without viewing the difference first?

I`d hate to order in the 12" only to find the new views are too similar, rather than wow!

Charic, what are your conditions like at home in terms of LP? What is you NELM?

The 12" will give a significant increase in brightness and resolution. Objects like globular clusters will be much better resolved for example. The thing aperture can't do is pull low surface brightness objects out from a sky background of similar or higher brightness.

[mikeDnight]

Much of the problem with stray light can be overcome by blocking light from entering the eye/eyepiece interface. In other words, putting a bag over your head can greatly improve the view. I'm not suggesting you walk round like elephant man, a small dark blanket would do the job nicely. It could also save you having to buy another scope as you seem content with the one you have. The problem might be that the view would have such a marked improvement you'd buy a twelve inch anyway.

Mike

[Charic]

Charic, what are your conditions like at home in terms of LP? What is you NELM?

The 12" will give a significant increase in brightness and resolution. Objects like globular clusters will be much better resolved for example. The thing aperture can't do is pull low surface brightness objects out from a sky background of similar or higher brightness.

BigSumorian, I need to re-assess but eyes alone nelm is about 6.1 - 6.5 level 4 on the Bortle scale. I see more with binoculars, obviously, and more when wearing prescription glasses. I'll get back to you when I have a better idea!

During the Summer I can only just see the 7 primary Stars in Ursa Major, due to the lighter nights.

[Stu]

BigSumorian, I need to re-assess but eyes alone nelm is about 6.1 - 6.5 level 4 on the Bortle scale. I see more with binoculars, obviously, and more when wearing prescription glasses. I'll get back to you when I have a better idea!

During the Summer I can only just see the 7 primary Stars in Ursa Major, due to the lighter nights.

Then what are you waiting for sir? Get yourself that 12" and you won't look back.

....and spare a thought for us poor city folk struggling away at mag 4.5 [emoji45]

[Charic]

Much of the problem with stray light can be overcome by blocking light from entering the eye/eyepiece interface. In other words, putting a bag over your head can greatly improve the view. I'm not suggesting you walk round like elephant man, a small dark blanket would do the job nicely. It could also save you having to buy another scope as you seem content with the one you have. The problem might be that the view would have such a marked improvement you'd buy a twelve inch anyway.

Mike

Fully with you on this one, my main 'hide' is my utility Dob tent, the only issue, the zipper works the wrong way? If I could just open the top of the door, it would be better. I also towel the head? Remembering not to cover the aperture, easy to do with a Dob! I also use a snood - diy dew shield to reduce stray light from entering the OTA (Optical Tube Assembly ).

I believe taking these measures does increase the contrast somewhat.

On paper, there is no argument! The 12" should be the better scope.

Maybe I want too much, for so little, but doubling the present image size of Jupiter ( as viewed by my present setup - I cant remember without searching if I had an 8mm or 12mm when I had that special clear night and my Moon transit ) and a little more contrast would be fine. I also want a solid tube! And a 300P flextube is fidlly and about 3 times the price of a standard 200P. If there was three times the

difference, for the better, I could order today?

It really boils down to me visiting or someone arriving - then comparing, visually, but preferrably testing here on my home turf. Away from home with the 8" there's no issue except for the image scale. I'm also considering some binoviewers at present, two eyes are better than one, this may improve my sense of detail, rather than relying on my one eye that sees less than the other? Who said nothing else to buy?

[John]

BigSumorian, I need to re-assess but eyes alone nelm is about 6.1 - 6.5 level 4 on the Bortle scale. I see more with binoculars, obviously, and more when wearing prescription glasses. I'll get back to you when I have a better idea!

During the Summer I can only just see the 7 primary Stars in Ursa Major, due to the lighter nights.

On half decent nights my NELM is often 5.0 - 5.5 and yet my 12" dob has shown me galaxies and stuff down to mag 14. On good nights it might be 6.0. Obviously mag 13 and 14 things are not jumping out at you as they are still very faint indeed but I've been surprised how "deep" I can go with some thought and planning. 

I say planning because the position of the object in the sky, principally it's altitude, makes a lot of difference to it's visibility. Atmospheric extinction and LP from two nearby cities takes it's toll rather rapidly if objects are too low down.

But larger aperture is not just about seeing fainter of course. Familliar objects become more detailed and extended and just more impressive as the aperture rises. Challenging planetary and lunar details become easier to see as well.