Just pushed the buy button on a new Atik 414ex mono.....

[Astroboffin]

Hi,

As said in the title, largest amount I have ever spent on an astro item, I was a bit nervous really, and my finger hovered over the final buy button for a minute or so......

But the deed is done now, so after using a canon modded DSLR for a few years, CCD mono here I come...

And another steep learning curve to go with it I guess, oh well easy come, easy go..

Amy tips on this camera welcome

AB

[Ewan]

As a lot of other SGL members have exclaimed, going from a dslr to a mono ccd is a fantastic experience & an enjoyable learning curve.

The sensitivity of the 414 is very good from what I have read so far, higher than my 314L+ so you will be pleasantly surprised with your new gear.

I too have a new CCD ordered.........collection this afternoon........clouds tonight I am betting.

Did you by a ccd,fw & filter combo or will you be buying LRGB filters later ?

[Astroboffin]

As a lot of other SGL members have exclaimed, going from a dslr to a mono ccd is a fantastic experience & an enjoyable learning curve.

The sensitivity of the 414 is very good from what I have read so far, higher than my 314L+ so you will be pleasantly surprised with your new gear.

I too have a new CCD ordered.........collection this afternoon........clouds tonight I am betting.

Did you by a ccd,fw & filter combo or will you be buying LRGB filters later ?

Hi,

I have just bought the camera to start with, and a Ha filter, I am looking at just narrowband to start me off, in fact I like the idea of using the DSLR for the RGB and the mono CCD for L and Ha, and then combine, it can produce stunning images, someone on here has done it with fantastic results.

I like the look of the SX USB filter wheel, but it's £280 so will have to wait for that, to be honest I have only managed to buy this camera courtesy of my dad giving me a nice early 50th birthday present of almost half the funds, otherwise it would have been another few months saving.

Which camera are you upgrading too from the 314??

as that is a superb camera by all accounts, I nearly got one secondhand from ABS for £720 in mint condition, until my dad said "get the new model" and I said "can't afford that yet" and the rest is history.

Regards

AB

[swag72]

Mono imaging is just great - There's so much versatility with it in my opinion and experience. You've made a great choice - I am a great fan of the Sony chips

[ollypenrice]

I really wouldn't mix makes between camera and filterwheel if going for an electric one. If you use an Atik wheel with an Atik camera that means you can use the Artemis Capture sequencer which is a large part of the point in havng an electric wheel at all.

Manual wheels are also perfectly good and never give USB errors!!

DSLR for colour...? Well, very noisy and usually rather lacking in star colour (due to lack of well depth I suppose.)

lly

[Astroboffin]

I really wouldn't mix makes between camera and filterwheel if going for an electric one. If you use an Atik wheel with an Atik camera that means you can use the Artemis Capture sequencer which is a large part of the point in havng an electric wheel at all.

Manual wheels are also perfectly good and never give USB errors!!

DSLR for colour...? Well, very noisy and usually rather lacking in star colour (due to lack of well depth I suppose.)

lly

Atik don't make an electric filter wheel, do they???

So how would that work then..........maybe I should have bought an SX camera........lol

AB

[swag72]

They certainly do http://www.firstlightoptics.com/atik-accessories/atik-efw-2-filter-wheel.html

[Astroboffin]

Atik don't make an electric filter wheel, do they???

So how would that work then..........maybe I should have bought an SX camera........lol

AB

Take a look at my avatar, taken with a modded DSLR, plenty of star colour there.......

AB

[Astroboffin]

They certainly do http://www.firstlightoptics.com/atik-accessories/atik-efw-2-filter-wheel.html

WOW, and look at the price......no chance, manual might be the order of the day....lol

AB

[Zakalwe]

As long as the filterwheel has an ASCOM driver, then there shouldn't be a problem. I've used an Xagyl and a Starlight Express wheel with an Atik. I don't however use Artemis (it might work fine, but one glance at it tells me that it was coded by someone that hasn't moved on from mid-1990s shareware!). I currently use Sequence Generator Pro as the capture/plate solving/session controller and it works nicely.

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/starlight-xpress-accessories/starlight-xpress-usb-filter-wheel.html

[Astroboffin]

As long as the filterwheel has an ASCOM driver, then there shouldn't be a problem. I've used an Xagyl and a Starlight Express wheel with an Atik. I don't however use Artemis (it might work fine, but one glance at it tells me that it was coded by someone that hasn't moved on from mid-1990s shareware!). I currently use Sequence Generator Pro as the capture/plate solving/session controller and it works nicely.

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/starlight-xpress-accessories/starlight-xpress-usb-filter-wheel.html

Hi,

I would like the SX mini filter wheel, I wish they would do it without the OAG head to make it cheaper, I know the larger one is available with it, but as the OAG is about £150 on its own then that makes the mini filter wheel worth around £130, then I would buy one right away.

I can alway hope......lol

AB

[Ewan]

Hi,

I have just bought the camera to start with, and a Ha filter, I am looking at just narrowband to start me off, in fact I like the idea of using the DSLR for the RGB and the mono CCD for L and Ha, and then combine, it can produce stunning images, someone on here has done it with fantastic results.

I like the look of the SX USB filter wheel, but it's £280 so will have to wait for that, to be honest I have only managed to buy this camera courtesy of my dad giving me a nice early 50th birthday present of almost half the funds, otherwise it would have been another few months saving.

Which camera are you upgrading too from the 314??

as that is a superb camera by all accounts, I nearly got one secondhand from ABS for £720 in mint condition, until my dad said "get the new model" and I said "can't afford that yet" and the rest is history.

Regards

AB

Picked up my 460EX upgrade to the 314L+, as predicted clouds followed me home.

[MattJenko]

I recently did the same move, Canon 450d to mono 414ex. Here are my initial thoughts after a few nights out. It is not a review, just some very subjective views on the transition:

Focus. Getting all the filter subs perfectly in focus is absolutely key it seems and not something I really concerned myself with when using the DSLR. I have found that while the filters may be parfocal in a perfect setup, they certainly are not in my rig. This was not a problem in the DSLR with the filters painted on the sensor, but it is with filters in a filter wheel (I went for a Starlight Xpress one by the way and have no problems with it). I have gone and purchased a motorfocuser to try and help me automate some of the flow, as I am not in a position to attend the setup all night, especially as the few clear nights have a tendency to not coincide with following days off. This is in the post.

Mono brings flexibility which means decisions which means complexity leading to an awful lot to learn. I also moved from Mac to Windows as part of this and this didn't help the learning curve. Getting software to allow a sequence to be executed is vital, unless you want to micro manage each frame taken. I thought by concentrating on RGB images of open clusters would ease me in gently. Quite the opposite. Getting backgrounds and stars right is very tricky (or is for me). It has certainly made me tighten up my processing workflow considerably. This is no bad thing in the long run, but is a struggle at first.

The camera is very sensitive. It is also a lot louder than I thought it would be. It looks glorious though.

However, the main issue is weather. Do you get all your L subs and then all R, all G and then finally all B, or do you rotate L+R+G+B (but then you have focus difference problems). Doing 2 hours L and then the clouds roll in can leave you a little frustrated. I have a few targets with missing channels.

The images are much less noisy, but by no means noise free. If you overcome the focus issues and get good subs, then processing is the next challenge. A huge bonus and not one I had thought of is that the images are significantly faster to process than a DSLR though as they are much, much smaller. This allows more experimentation. LRGB channel combining is a whole new world of fun to learn, and it took a while to click, and still I feel I am a significant novice.

You become significantly more aware of what you are doing and why, and want to gather more, do better, be better. You also become much more critical, as there are so many more things to deal with, and you are not experienced at doing them. This can give the impression you are going backwards. The initial images are not as good as the well practiced DSLR images, although I have had one or two moments where something pops out that shows me I have done the right thing. I am hoping this becomes the norm, not the exception.

Binning is marvellous. Using binning for focus, framing is excellent. I have no idea how I managed before. Slowly is the probable answer.

The much much smaller FOV means I am now looking at different targets. I am also learning the sky much more, as I seek out potential images that are not simply the large well known classics as they just don't fit. Let's just say there are a lot of tiny patches of sky I want to aim at and the FOV is not going to be a problem for me. Stellarium is your friend.

Bit of a random ramble, but I am very glad I made the move, and would not go back. I will still use the 450d on occasion I think, eventually, but it is certainly not going to be used in the near future. I have added the narrowband filters, and realised that my standard sub length of 10 minutes doesn't come close to cutting it when I did an Ha experiment. I can see why the experienced imagers on here push it to 30 mins for narrowband images.

Matt

[Astroboffin]

I recently did the same move, Canon 450d to mono 414ex. Here are my initial thoughts after a few nights out. It is not a review, just some very subjective views on the transition:

Focus. Getting all the filter subs perfectly in focus is absolutely key it seems and not something I really concerned myself with when using the DSLR. I have found that while the filters may be parfocal in a perfect setup, they certainly are not in my rig. This was not a problem in the DSLR with the filters painted on the sensor, but it is with filters in a filter wheel (I went for a Starlight Xpress one by the way and have no problems with it). I have gone and purchased a motorfocuser to try and help me automate some of the flow, as I am not in a position to attend the setup all night, especially as the few clear nights have a tendency to not coincide with following days off. This is in the post.

Mono brings flexibility which means decisions which means complexity leading to an awful lot to learn. I also moved from Mac to Windows as part of this and this didn't help the learning curve. Getting software to allow a sequence to be executed is vital, unless you want to micro manage each frame taken. I thought by concentrating on RGB images of open clusters would ease me in gently. Quite the opposite. Getting backgrounds and stars right is very tricky (or is for me). It has certainly made me tighten up my processing workflow considerably. This is no bad thing in the long run, but is a struggle at first.

The camera is very sensitive. It is also a lot louder than I thought it would be. It looks glorious though.

However, the main issue is weather. Do you get all your L subs and then all R, all G and then finally all B, or do you rotate L+R+G+B (but then you have focus difference problems). Doing 2 hours L and then the clouds roll in can leave you a little frustrated. I have a few targets with missing channels.

The images are much less noisy, but by no means noise free. If you overcome the focus issues and get good subs, then processing is the next challenge. A huge bonus and not one I had thought of is that the images are significantly faster to process than a DSLR though as they are much, much smaller. This allows more experimentation. LRGB channel combining is a whole new world of fun to learn, and it took a while to click, and still I feel I am a significant novice.

You become significantly more aware of what you are doing and why, and want to gather more, do better, be better. You also become much more critical, as there are so many more things to deal with, and you are not experienced at doing them. This can give the impression you are going backwards. The initial images are not as good as the well practiced DSLR images, although I have had one or two moments where something pops out that shows me I have done the right thing. I am hoping this becomes the norm, not the exception.

Binning is marvellous. Using binning for focus, framing is excellent. I have no idea how I managed before. Slowly is the probable answer.

The much much smaller FOV means I am now looking at different targets. I am also learning the sky much more, as I seek out potential images that are not simply the large well known classics as they just don't fit. Let's just say there are a lot of tiny patches of sky I want to aim at and the FOV is not going to be a problem for me. Stellarium is your friend.

Bit of a random ramble, but I am very glad I made the move, and would not go back. I will still use the 450d on occasion I think, eventually, but it is certainly not going to be used in the near future. I have added the narrowband filters, and realised that my standard sub length of 10 minutes doesn't come close to cutting it when I did an Ha experiment. I can see why the experienced imagers on here push it to 30 mins for narrowband images.

Matt

Superb, thanks very much for that, more expense now, but a great write up, really appreciated

AB

[Astroboffin]

Can I ask Matt, what is your routine for focus, and do you use the Atik software, as I plan on using APT, which I love, and I can use.....

Regards

AB

[MattJenko]

I currently am using my DSLR workflow which involves using a bahtinov mask. I slew to a bright star near my intended target and use the mask and manually focus on that, then I know the target will be in focus. This works for individual filters as well, but is a hassle if you need to slew away, focus, slew back for each filter change. It also assumes you can get the framing bang on each time. Last time out, I went through all the filters on a single target and made a 'best compromise' approach to the focusing and then ran a sequence on the target, but it was not hugely successful - the Red channel being noticeably less focused than the other 2.

 

I am in the middle of a trial of SequenceGeneratorPro for capturing images, and it seems excellent and provides various focusing options, once of which includes a manual option without needing to slew away, which is well worth looking at. I am hoping a motor-focuser will allow me to automate this so I can change filters as part of a pre-programmed sequence run without the need for manual focusing or slewing away. This should allow me to make effective use of the limited clear skies our UK weather permits without getting fired from my job for sleeping at my desk.

[Astroboffin]

I currently am using my DSLR workflow which involves using a bahtinov mask. I slew to a bright star near my intended target and use the mask and manually focus on that, then I know the target will be in focus. This works for individual filters as well, but is a hassle if you need to slew away, focus, slew back for each filter change. It also assumes you can get the framing bang on each time. Last time out, I went through all the filters on a single target and made a 'best compromise' approach to the focusing and then ran a sequence on the target, but it was not hugely successful - the Red channel being noticeably less focused than the other 2.

 

I am in the middle of a trial of SequenceGeneratorPro for capturing images, and it seems excellent and provides various focusing options, once of which includes a manual option without needing to slew away, which is well worth looking at. I am hoping a motor-focuser will allow me to automate this so I can change filters as part of a pre-programmed sequence run without the need for manual focusing or slewing away. This should allow me to make effective use of the limited clear skies our UK weather permits without getting fired from my job for sleeping at my desk.

So when focusing, do you have the exposures set to about 1 second and put on a sort of loop, APT gives a live view option so you can set it at anything from 1 second upwards, on a loop with the exposures not saved.

Sequence generator Pro, that sounds expensive....!!

Regards

AB

[strutsinaction]

So when focusing, do you have the exposures set to about 1 second and put on a sort of loop, APT gives a live view option so you can set it at anything from 1 second upwards, on a loop with the exposures not saved.

Sequence generator Pro, that sounds expensive....!!

Regards

AB

I use the Frame and Focus tool in SGPro. I set the binning to 1x1, exposure to 0.5s (fine for my QSI690), select a subframe around the bright star (to improve the download time) then continuouslly capture until I'm focused (exposures are not saved). I use a Bahtinov mask and Bahtinov Grabber to help with focusing. Simple and quick!

SGPro is not expensive for what it does. Superb tool, IMHO.

Regards

John

[MattJenko]

It is cheaper than MaxIm and other packages. $99. I am certainly buying it assuming the motorfocuser plays nicely with it all. If you can get the plate solving working as well, you are on a winner.

AstroPhotography is undeniably an expensive hobby, but there is some quality software out there for very little when you consider what it does. I have no problem in paying for something if it is worth it and for me SGP is falling into that category. Cheaper than my 6mm Vixen SLV eyepiece and much less than my Ha filter puts it in perspective. PixInsight and things like Noel Carboni's Photoshop actions are other such examples in my opinion. I also pay a voluntary monthly fee to AstroBin as that is a great resource too.

[ollypenrice]

I use the Frame and Focus tool in SGPro. I set the binning to 1x1, exposure to 0.5s (fine for my QSI690), select a subframe around the bright star (to improve the download time) then continuouslly capture until I'm focused (exposures are not saved). I use a Bahtinov mask and Bahtinov Grabber to help with focusing. Simple and quick!

SGPro is not expensive for what it does. Superb tool, IMHO.

Regards

John

I'd find half a second was a bit short and overly affected by the seeing, giving a bouncy set of readouts. Obviously if you don't get this than that's fine but my systems work best on about 3 seconds to average out the seeing effects.

Once you are on your target the nice thing about using FWHM is that you almost invariably have a star on which to use it. I really hate having to slew away and back.

With FWHM be sure to choose a star below the maximum 65000 brightness or the bell curve will be chopped off flat at the top.

Take a look at my avatar, taken with a modded DSLR, plenty of star colour there.......

AB

Yes, but when you do star trails you don't saturate the cores because you move them. How do you find star colour on fixed exposures? Some DSLR imagers do manage good star colour but they're in a minority, I think.

Olly

[iksose7]

Regarding the filter wheel, i recently moved to mono CCD with the purchase of a Atik 383L, although i haven't had a chance to have proper first light yet. I also thought the price of the Atik filter wheel was a bit too much considering my budget. Ian King recommended the SX 7 position filter wheel and it works fine, get build quality too.

I couldnt get along with the Artemis software at all, it just wasnt user friendly for me and proceeded to crash repeatedly. I ended up going back to good old APT which i know well and works a treat!

Callum 

[Astroboffin]

Regarding the filter wheel, i recently moved to mono CCD with the purchase of a Atik 383L, although i haven't had a chance to have proper first light yet. I also thought the price of the Atik filter wheel was a bit too much considering my budget. Ian King recommended the SX 7 position filter wheel and it works fine, get build quality too.

I couldnt get along with the Artemis software at all, it just wasnt user friendly for me and proceeded to crash repeatedly. I ended up going back to good old APT which i know well and works a treat!

Callum

That's good to know, so the SX filter wheel works well with APT, that is my software of choice too, and same as you I know it well, and it does what it says on the tin......

So do you have to use the filter wheel Ascom driver with APT, and if so do you get full control with that??

Regards

AB

[strutsinaction]

I'd find half a second was a bit short and overly affected by the seeing, giving a bouncy set of readouts. Obviously if you don't get this than that's fine but my systems work best on about 3 seconds to average out the seeing effects.

Good point, Olly. I hadn't really thought about the effects of seeing and to be honest I do notice that the Bahtinov Grabber reports slightly different focus stats between frames (all withing critical focus though so I have largely ignored this). I will try a longer exposure in future and maybe choose a less bright star.

Thanks for the hint!

Regards

John

[iksose7]

That's good to know, so the SX filter wheel works well with APT, that is my software of choice too, and same as you I know it well, and it does what it says on the tin......

So do you have to use the filter wheel Ascom driver with APT, and if so do you get full control with that??

Regards

AB

I actually havent tried the SX wheel with APT, although i dont see why it wouldn't work. The Wheel comes with its own software, extremely basic small interface which is all you need for changing filters.

Callum

[Ewan]

I may be wrong in saying this but you can use binning of say 2x2 for initial focus just to get some stars showing but I don't think it's a good idea to use binning on the final focussing.

Once you have your star selected (Artemis I use), set Binning to 1x1, exposure to 3 seconds, select Subframe from the top bar & click on your displayed image on screen, hold the mouse button down & drag diagonally across the screen (to make a square(ish) shape around the star you selected) , maybe some others as well. 

Double click an appropriate star to get the FWHM info box up & adjust focus from there.

If & when you buy an Ha filter, use a much brighter star to focus on then slew to your target.

Let us know how you get on & what you think of Artemis (if you use it), it's a fantastic program, very very easy to use & get into.

Good luck imaging.