Beginners in need of help! :)

[JamesCoop]

Hi,

Myself and my father are starting to get really interested in start gazing and looking into investing into a decent telescope. We would like something that will be able to see into deep space such as the Crab Nebula, the rings around saturn and stars such as beetlegeuse clearly.

Our budget is anything up to £1,000 but please don't quote various telescopes that cost £999 (various options would be welcome).

We are becoming really interested in the night sky but really don't know where to start, any advice woud be welcome.

Thanks in advance.

James and Neil.

[Daniel-K]

welcome to SGL your in the right place.you have a good budget for a scope there will be an abundance of help and information coming at you.......when it eventually clouds over lol for DSO's Dobsonian are great check this out http://www.firstlightoptics.com/dobsonians/skywatcher-skyliner-250px-dobsonian.html. easy to use very manageable and a great way to learn the sky with out breaking the bank. i use to have the same one fantastic scopes but when you start getting upto 12 inches they start to get a but hard to handle a 8 or a 10 is a good starter scope

[Schorhr]

Welcome to this fascinating hobby!

Be aware that telescope views are nothing like the hubble photographs, especially galaxies, M1/crab nebula for example, will look like http://www.cujoka.ch/media/DIR_188412/DIR_194212/M$201$20Kopie.jpg in small telescopes, under the right condition with more aperture perhaps http://www.cujoka.ch/148375/170212.html after observing some time.

Even with larger telescopes - 27"! It will not look as on pictures: http://www.astrotreff.de/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=125016

But don't let that discourage you, there are a lot of fascinating deepsky objects that will reveal a lot of detail and looking at then with your own eyes is breath taking!

Check out http://clarkvision.com/visastro/m51-apert/ for a pretty good direct comparison on M51, a galaxy merging with another. But this also shows how dependant observations are from conditions, patience and experience. It's very well possible to see the "bridge" in smaller telescopes if the circumstances alow it.

Same as above applies to planets, but they will show color and structure in even small telescopes. A more limiting factor is seeing (air turbulances) that prevent you from magnifying more then 200-250x most of the time.

Key in amateur astronomy is darkness and as little air turbulances as possible. While bright objects such as double stars, planets and the moon work from within a city even with some light pollution, the air turbulances from roofs, streets and so on are a problem.

With galaxies, nebulas and so on it can never be dark enough. Even the largest telescope is no use if your sky glows orange in a big city.

If you can't see the milky way from your location, a drive to a dark site will show nuch, much more. And this is where transportability comes in:

A huge 16" telescope in a back yard in a bigger town (street lights, cars, glowing skies, the neighbor's yard light on) won't show as much as a smaller 6 or 8" telescope you take out to a dark location.

Worst thing that can happen is that you discover this after buying your telescope, as the light polution is often underestimated and the telescope size as well...

What seemed like a dark location suddenly seems like the brightest spot in town to you, and if the telescope is too much of a hassle to carry out it starts to catch dust in the garage or basement.

As Daniel points out a dobsonian is the best deal for the money. No fancy electronics and motors, but as you learn your way around the night sky and cary along a book I find that to be no deal breaker, quite to opposite.

Do you two want to share a telescope or use one each?

Then two 8" dobsonians would be well in your budget even with decent acessories. And for a single telescope 12" or something would show even more.

If you two want to share a telescope, consider getting a eq platform for automated tracking with a dobsonian. Another 200-300€/£ well spent.

Of course there are telescopes with goto-mount that track and find objects automatically, but then you eitherhave to pay more money for a decent (rigid also means heavy) eq-mount then for the telescope, or if it's a cheap bundle the mount will shake a lot.

Aperture is key for deepsky. The best 90mm telescope on a goto mount can't show what a 200mm dobsonian can.

If you both have no dark back yard and don't want to drive out by car, consider getting two sets of 8x50 to 10x60 binoculars (allways a good idea), over 10x can't be held by hand steady enough for observing the night sky.

Good binoculars will show Jupiter's moons, brighter/larger deepsky objects such as Andromeda, Orion nebula, Plejads, m44 and so on.

Also there is a number of back pack friendly telescopes such as small refractors or maksutov telescopes from 70/500 to 127/1300 and the heritage 130p reflector, that's probably the largest you can carry in a backpack unless Sumerianobtics brings back the 10" 9kg telescope.

[ronin]

A scope for 2 people, I assume that you intend to both be using at the same time as in swap positions at the eyepiece.

To me that removes the dobsonian mounted scopes, by the time you will have swapped over, readjusted the focus then the object will most likely disappeared out of view.

So a tracking mount.

How do you feel about an equitorial mount?

Assuming visual only they are fairly easy, if you can bend down to get to the polarscope.

To track you need a set of motors or the goto system

Any opinions on goto?

If not equitorial then it is Alt/Az, the Celestron Nexstars come first to mind, 6SE perhaps, nice size and will do most things, goto so needs data supplied and some initialisation.

An alternative is the iOptron cube mount. You buy the mount then attach a scope that is not too heavy. It is a goto also.

Problem is the scope. Big means heavy but is better for DSO's.

If me I would get the iOptron mount and stick an Astro-Professional 102 ED refractor on it, or the similar scope by someone else. The Skywatcher 100ED costs less, I am looking through the TS site for an idea of what scope and costs.

You will get bigger apertures if you got a reflector but I think the 2 bits mentioned would get a lot more use and do a good job of most things. A 5mm BST in it would give 142x and that is enough for Saturn. DSO's would need lower magnifications.

[Schorhr]

Oh and also try stellarium (freeware). You can set up a telescope simulator (ctrl+o,alt+o, for example a 200mm telescope with 1200mm focal length), see how fast objects run out of view with lets say a 32 and 10mm eyepiece with 50 degree apparent field of view (Plössl type eyepiece) and a Erfle wide angle eyepiece with 70 degree afov.

[gkec]

Personally I think starting with a pair of 15x70 binoculars would be a good starting point. You can see the rings of Saturn, see nebula and galaxies and they are far easier to use to find things than any telescope. For casual observing I find the binoculars far more accessible and easier to use then a scope.

A few months familiarity viewing the night sky with binoculars would help in deciding what direction to go.

In my opinion advising on spending on other people's money has to be approached very cautiously.

[jonathan]

You could, for example, buy a Celestron Omni CG-4 or HEQ5 EQ mount, add dual axis motors for tracking, then you have a choice of what to put on it - maybe a C6, Evostar 150, or Explorer 200P. Check weight carrying capacity of the mount and aim to be well under it with any scope you choose, as eyepieces, upgraded focusers, electronic focusers, dew shield, etc can add quite a bit to the overall weight of the scope.

[swamp thing]

Hi James and Neil.

As its a scope for two to share, I would also recommend a driven scope.

Ths comes in under budget, and will be tough to beat.

http://www.firstligh...xtube-goto.html

[JamesCoop]

Hi all,

Thanks for the comments, seems you all have a wealth of information!

After looking about a bit this morning I think we've decided to go with a Dobsonian of some sort. What recommendations would you have? I was thinking something like a

Skywatcher Skyliner 300P FlexTube Dobsonian - £849 / Skywatcher Skyliner 200P FlexTube GOTO - £749 / Or perhaps a Meade Lightbridge as they are roughly the same price. What's better a Meade of Skywatcher etc? Or are there better options out there at this price range?

Also is it really worth getting a GoTo device? Or is it better to spend the money on a larger diameter tube?

Thanks

James

[Scott]

I think we all remember the mine field that is choosing a first scope. Hell, I didn't even know that it was possible to see the rings of saturn, or the moons of jupiter and as for seeing another galaxy...I thought that was in the realms of professional observatories. I only mention this as it seems you have an idea of what you're wanting to see which is one step up on me when I started.

I think unless you have a very clear idea of whether you want to get involved with imaging (which can empty your pockets very quickly if you let it) then I think you are best to buy a scope with visual observation in mind, and as has been said in previous posts, it's hard to beat a dob for this. In fact, I'd say Steve is right on the mark with his choice. good luck and clear skies to you both

[Schorhr]

Hello James,

a 300mm/12" telescope will show much more details on deepsky objects such as galaxies, check out the link to the astro drawings of m51 I posted earlier :-)

Goto will help you find objects, but the smaller telescope will show less.

And star charts/maps and a functional brain usualy work as well as goto after some time ;-)

Of course goto is a nice thing to have, but overrated. Especially the goto dobsons as astro photography is not possible/limited with them due to field rotation, and the extra cost will usualy buy you a larger non-goto dobsonian with a mirror that has double the light gathering surface.

Keep in mind a 300mm telescope is big though. And the focal ratio usualy is under f/5, meaning that cheap eyepieces wont be sharp across the whole field and coma (longish stars at the outer field) start to become an issue.

Longer focal lengths may set the focuser/eyepiece so high on larger telescopes that it gets difficult to look through for not so tall persons.

Choices would be a small podest or a shorter one and a coma corrector.

Regarding flextubes and lightbridges: Great for limited transportation & storage space. But if you use it in your back yard the open tube is an issue if there are lights nearby. A lightshroud is recommended, these can be bought or made with a sewing machine ;-)

More importaint then goto, as I said, is tracking, as on high magnification a object will be out of the view by the time you let someone else look through. But as the eq plattform can be bought later you could try how you both handle the telescope without tracking.

Just IF you decide to get a Goto mount it's easier to get it right away while a eq plattform just gets placed under the telescope.

Decisions, decisions.

Most cheap telescopes have similar mirrors, usualy decent. But do read different reviews...

Flextubes are great, set down, pull up the top, start observing. I think some models had stability issues, probably fixed by now.

A lightbridge can be disassembled furher, good for small cars.

A full tube is usualy no problem depending on your car if you can lay it across the back seat, but mesure before buying it.

A 16" dob has limited transportability, check ther weight.

[Peter Drew]

I think it would be a good idea to have a close look at some of the larger telescopes you are considering, a scope for two people could mean you need two to carry it!

[jonathan]

As has been mentioned, if you are intending to hot-seat between the two of you then tracking is going to be very very helpful, especially with the larger dobsonians you mentioned, so a Goto Dobsonian would be preferable (I think there are simple tracking options available for some dob mounts, perhaps as a fit-it-yourself kit, I don't know how well they work).

I would suggest the 250P Flextube Goto at £959 as a ready-made set up, or you could have a bigger scope on an EQ mount with simple tracking for similar money. At this size of scope the mounts become heavy and so do the telescopes (or large and unwieldy, like carrying a small, light, man). For a large tube such as a 300P you would probably need an NEQ6, which I cannot manage in one piece - the tripod comes out first, then I gingerly heave the mount out onto that, it is at the limit of my carrying ability but gives super stable views. The more you ask, the more options come to light! And also, the more money you could spend.

You might consider a C9.25 on an EQ mount, this would probably come in at around £1200 but you would need to organise power for the mount and dew heaters (practically a requirement for most winter nights on an SCT scope, which the C9.25 is), either a mains extension or outdoor socket with a 12V auto converter, or a decent 12V leisure battery. I wouldn't mess about with cheap car starter packs at this level, a simple leisure battery with a couple of clips and an inline fuse to a car cigarette lighter socket is all you need. Also budget for a dew heater tape controller and heater tapes, dew shield too.

On the subject of dew, the general rule of thumb is that the larger the scope, the more dew becomes a potential problem. It won't get you every night, but when it comes it can be difficult to control. Reflectors and SCT / Maks over 8 inches in diameter usually require a dew shield at least, which also helps keep out stray light from external lights and street lights (so contrast should be slightly higher), SCTs benefit from dew heater tapes too just to keep the chill off the front corrector glass otherwise it can mist up with dew. You should look at these options when budgeting for your chosen scope and mount.

[Schorhr]

Hello Jonathan,

I bought my eq platform from Martini optics Germany, back then 220€, now a Bit more expensive but still affordable. Simply attach the Motor and place the dobsonian ontop, works well with my smaller and larger telescopes. Only for some heavier ones there are a Bit bigger plattforms.

When roughly aligned North they Track well enough for visual observations. Just for photography aligning them and having One that suits the longitude is importaint, but to some extend can be adjusted by One side's height. But of course for serious photography there would be other options, but it is indeed possible for snapshots.

The problem with a maksutov or similar telescopes is the long focal length, as large objects such as andromeda and open star clusters won't fit into the view anymore.

What I also just posted on the other thread:

Telrad and starcharts are pretty simple to use.

Cheap older 40-50€ end of line Android phone or 7" tablet, red anaglyph transparent sheet, and skyeye or other software-

Makes a great "Push-to" instead of Go-to ;-).

Simply enter a target and follow the arrow / push the telescope in the direction, and the target should be visible in the overview eyepiece.

[rowan46]

I think the flexitube answers your needs best. It has tracking so that 2 users can use it, it has enough apparture to get some decent views, it's relatively easy to use and it meets your budget. However there are other criteria to consider in astronomy other than the view, there is the issue of (trans)portability not an issue perhaps for back garden viewing, ease of use and comfort. Imaging often comes up as part of the equation but as the scope will be shared by 2 people its really a non issue. imaging isn't really a 2-person occupation if you want to do complex imaging you would be best to get a dedicated system for it.

Providing you are using it in the back garden I think the 250 flexitube really is the best fit. If you need to travel on a regular basis you may wish to look at a smaller more portable scope perhaps looking at your price the nexstar 6se although the 8 would be better if you could stretch to it. The smaller apparture would be mitigated by the fact that you are at a darker site

[JamesCoop]

Again thanks for all of the input. I've had a chat with my father and he wants to go for the

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/dobsonians/skywatcher-skyliner-250px-dobsonian.html

We both think that the flexitube is great but not really needed for us as we have a large 4x4 and two of us to lift it. The only concerning factor is the lack of tracking? Isn't part of the fun trying to track down various stars or consellations? It would be for me personally, however without tracking when looking into deep space will we not be able to take turns viewing the same star/galaxy etc. it will it have moved? Can we simply not just re-align it? Surely the earths spin is not that fast?

[JamesCoop]

Sorry, another point is that in some reviews users of the scope above are saying the EP's (I'm guessing eye piece) is not that brilliant. Does this make a big impact? If so can anyone recommend a better EP?

Thanks again in advance!! I'm amazed at how helpful everyone is. Makes being a newbie so much easier

[RichieP]

Don't confuse goto and tracking.

Goto refers to the automated finding of objects. Tracking refers to following the object across the sky as it moves owing to the Earth's rotation. All goto mounts will track as well, but you don't need goto in order to track.

The rotation of Earth will be magnified along with the object under observation and, at higher magnification, you will be suprised at how quickly things will move (one of the reasons why wide field of view eyepieces are popular with dob users). It might be frustrating if things are constantly moving out of view whilst you changeover.

[Schorhr]

Richie explained it well.

Of course if you both learn locating objects and handling the telescope manual tracking will be sufficient. Just on the rare occasions when magnifying lets say 300x and your father finishes eating a sandwich, the object will be gone by then ;-)

Wide angle eyepieces help with that too, by the way.

So to sum it up, tracking is a bonus and can be added with an eq plattform.

Goto is a neat thing too, but you will pay a lot for it. Some favor it, some enjoy locating the objects themselves as it is part of the experience.

Also goto will sometimes cause you to chase one object after another, while searching and finding can be as rewarding as observing, and youu will spend a lot more time looking at an object, trying how much details you'll be able to make out over time and with different magnifications.

The kit eyepieces are usualy cheap kellner or Huygens on some smaller telescopes (older, basic lens setups with a relativley narrow view, 30-40 degree apparent field of view, and bad/short eye relief on low eyepiece focal length/high magnification) , Plössl eyepieces (50 degree afov, short eye relief below 9mm) with larger dobsonians and more rarely erfle eyepieces (60-7p degree afov, nice wide angle views, good eye relieve, but outer field is not sharp at telescopes below a focal ratio of f/6, especially below f/5 as many telescopes larger then 10" are f/5 or f/4.7), or with Skywatcher brand telescopes SUPER eyepieces that are a simple design as well, not too bad compared to Huygens eyepieces, but have a bit low contrast.

You can spend more money on decent eyepieces then for the telescope.

But don't rush it. The supplied eyepieces won't turn you blind but once you upgrade you don't want to go back.

My reccomendation would be a decent overview eyepiece with 2" barrel size and a exit pupil a bit under 7mm. Now this is where a lot of theory starts, so I'll try to keep it a bit simple;

The human eye's iris can't open more then 7mm, often less with age. Also when not completely dark, 7mm may not be reached.

An eyepiece exit pupil is calculated by eyepiece-mm devided by telescope focal ratio.

This is why there can't be a generic eyepiece recomendation.

If your telescope has f/5, a 30mm eyepiece has a 6mm exit pupil. A good exit pupil for average conditions and eyes ;-)

Exit pupils under 0.6 or 0.5 make the image dark and contrast gets bad. Also under 1mm older humans have "floaters", debris int the eye fluid that can disturb observation on such small light exit pupils.

Other then the exit pupil the ideal starter eyepieces are a overview eyepiece 30-45x, a planet eyepice with high magnification (200-250x as more is usually not possible due to air turbulances), and one or Two inbetween.

So on a 250mm telescope with a focal length of 1250 , focal ratio f/5,

-a 30mm wide angle eyepiece = 41x for open star clusters and some nebulas

-a 5-6mm eyepiece = about 208-250x, for planets and small deep sky objects

-a 15-20mm eyepiece perhaps, so aprox. 60-80x

-a 8-10mm eyepiece, so something around 100-120x

Depending on your budget and tollerance to a not so sharp outer field, there is a number of very good budget eyepiece that will have a nice wide angle view and can be used for months and years before you want to upgrade.

Erfle and similar:

Due to the wide angle view and the field you should get a 2" eyepiece, depending on your telescope - 10 to 12" dobsonian with f/5 or f/4.7, you may consider a erfle in 25, 30, or 32mm.

They cost 60-100€ and the outer field may not be sharp, but the wide angle view gives a incredible space walk effect.

Baader Hyperion: 100-200€, great for the price. Less issues then the erfle. Around 30mm there's the baader aspheric.

TMB/Hr Planetary

Great for higher magnification and relatively inexpensive, with 58-60 degree afov inbetween Plössl and Erfle, but compared to plossl good eye relieve and suitable for people with glasses. Compared to erfle usualy sharper outer field on f/5 due to the barlow magnifying element included in the lens design. 45-50€ is a great deal for those.

UWA- Incredible eyepieces at only 30 to 40€, but only availalbe in 6, 9, 15 and 20mm. Good to fill the gap in your eyepiece palette at the beginning, acceptable at f/5 in my oppinion.

Some sort of erfle design, same problems and advantages (66 degree afov).

Plössl: Goodie but oldie. Start around 10€ and some offer a bit better variants (better quality, a tad more apparent field of view). Better then most cheap eyepieces of basic starter scopes, but under 15mm not good with glasses, under 9mm even difficult for people without glasses.

Barlow:

Increases magnification, usualy available x2 or x3.

Will decrease overall contrast and add chromatic abberation, but even a 20€ achromatic barlow does it's job. And a 12mm Plössl with a 3x barlow is more comfortable to use then a 4mm Plössl.

BETTER eyepieces: You can spend even more, and just now there is a whole bunch of eyepieces available with 82 or even 100 degree afov, some even for under 200€. IF it's in your budget, go for it. But usualy you should not get ahead of things. Some people buy 10 eyepieces and don't use half of them or discover that for their observation targets they need other magnifications...

As for glasses:

With astigmatism you will need to leave your glasses on, so a eyepiece with lets say around 15mm eye relief is a good choice. Check reviews if the whole field is visible with glasses, some wide angle eyepieces will have issues.

On smaller exit pupils/higher magnification astigmatism gets less of an issue. Also with no astigmatism you can just focus with the telescope. BUT if you have different eye sight this would mean constantly changing focus.

My fiancee also wears glasses and favors leaving them on as it gets a bit fiddly in the dark. Put glasses away, look through eyepiece, put them back on, get another eyepiece, put them away, put them back on to read a star map...

Also importaint as said a decent finder scope, Rigel or telrad as they have many benefits compared to a little finder telescope.

[AlexB67]

A scope for 2 people, I assume that you intend to both be using at the same time as in swap positions at the eyepiece.

To me that removes the dobsonian mounted scopes, by the time you will have swapped over, readjusted the focus then the object will most likely disappeared out of view.

I wouldn't say it is a show stopper, I guess it is not ideal, but to point out, my missus does not observe nearly as much as me, but we were looking at the moon, and Saturn a few times at 200+ mag recently, the object does not stay in view that long, as long as you are reasonably prompt swapping over and careful, we have no issue with it. Rarely has it happened that she or I nudged so anything left the view. The first few times when she was not practiced at high mag it did happen, but not ever since What works well for us is to time it well, so when the target is about to leave the view you swap over, but since I am gentleman she tells me , I nudge it so she has a nice new fresh start to let it drift across the view.

The focus we tend to not have trouble with either, a small tweak in my scope for both of us and we are there, we are both short sighted though, our eyesight is perhaps not that different, but I tend to remove my specs anyway when observing most of the time once I want to look at something for longer periods of time.

[AstroTux]

Just my 2p worth, but we've just bought a 250px for both of us to use in a similar manner as you propose. I would say it is an excellent 'scope for this purpose.

Objects will move across the field of view but will only appear to move fast with higher magnifications. As an example using an 8mm BST Starguider we achieve 150x magnification and a 45 arcminute field of view. The sky moves at approximately 15 arcminutes per minute, giving around 3 minutes for an object to traverse the field of view. Once you have used the 'scope for while you will find that nudging it so that the object is to one side will give plenty of time for the other observer to take over and then track the object as they wish.

We all have different eyes so it is likely that the other observer will probably have to spend some time refocusing, but we do this normally so it is nothing to worry about. The only time when this is likely to cause any issue is with the finder 'scope. If it is set for one observer the other may find objects out of focus through it. This can be easily rectified by not using the locking ring that holds its focus and then each observer refocusing as required. Because of this issue we find the use of a Rigel QuickFinder very useful for the initial locating of objects, and you may wish to consider one of these or a Telrad as an accessory to this 'scope.

As far as eyepieces are concerned, the 10mm and 25mm supplied with this 'scope are OKish (IMHO) but if you want better without breaking the bank then I would recommend the BST Starguiders. I was concerned as to how these would work with such a fast 'scope but can say that I now use them almost exclusively. I currently use a set of 8mm, 15mm & 25mm and find that they cover most bases well. I have found these to be a great improvement over my collection of plossls and at £47 each they are well worth it.

You will also have to learn the art of collimation, but that can be taken one step at a time and is not nearly as daunting as it may seem.

I would say that if you go for this 'scope, a Telrad or Quickfinder, a couple of BST Starguiders, a bike cover ( to keep the 'scope covered when cooling down and keep the birds from depositing things on it :grin: ) and a copy of Turn Left at Orion then you will have the ideal introduction to amateur astronomy that will be extremely useful for many years to come. Looking back it's what I would choose if I had known then what I know now ( hears Rod Stewart singing somewhere in the background.... :grin: ).

Hope this helps,

Alan

[AstroTux]

Just to say sorry but I got my maths wrong. The 8mm gives 150x magnification and a 24 arcminute field of view meaning an object takes about 1 min 40 seconds to cross the field. Still long enough to change observers though.

Alan

[Mizar]

Also is it really worth getting a GoTo device? Or is it better to spend the money on a larger diameter tube?

In some cases, you're hardly paying any more for a GoTo scope of the same aperture as an equatorial. Either one is far more convenient tracking than with a dob. For instance, the Orion StarSeeker II 130mm GoTo Reflector costs only $40 more than the Orion SpaceProbe 130ST Equatorial Reflector, plus its tracking drive. And that's regular prices, sales or discounts take it down even further, to about the same price. I've thought I'd really want the Spaceprobe EQ, but now I believe I'd prefer the StarSeeker GoTo (even though I've never been a fan of a computer doing the locating- but who says you have to use that part) just for the tracking on a much more lightweight and simpler to transport mount.

[66mikeg]

Before you part with your hard earned cash I would suggest finding a local astronomy group and paying them a visit, you'll find them only to pleased to help and give you the opportunity to see and experience a range of 'scopes first hand.