Why am I disappointed with my new eyepiece?

[rkc]

I am a new owner of an ED80 (which came with something described as a 2" 28mm LES eyepiece), and an ST80 which came with nondescript 1.5" 25mm and 10mm eyepieces.

The 28mm eyepiece is quite nice, at least to my inexperienced eyes. The 25 and 10mm eyepieces are so-so - need to get the eye in exactly the right place to see anything, but not too bad when you do.

After some searching of reviews, I bought a Baader Hyperion Zoom (mark III), thinking it would give me a higher quality eyepiece over the full 28-10mm range, and an opportunity to see what magnification was good for what before splashing out on anything else. It's not a cheap eyepiece, and I guess I was expecting something at least as nice as the included 28mm eyepiece.

I've not had THAT much chance to try it yet, but so far I've found it something of a disappointment - in particular it seems if anything harder to get the eye in the right position for viewing than even the eyepieces that came with the ST80. The zoom is nice, but the range is not quite enough....

I guess my question is, in order to avoid any future disappointment, what should I be looking for in the specs/reviews of an eyepiece to be able to pick one that will suit me? If an eyepiece requires precise positioning of the eye to see anything, is that a sign of insufficient exit pupil? Or insufficient eye relief? Or have I just set it up wrong / picked the wrong eyecup (it comes with three...)

[ronin]

Don't own a Hyperon but there have been a few posts that question their performance with fast scopes, your ST is f/5 so fast and is an achromat. The eyepiece cannot correct for shortfalls in the objective, and an f/5 achro will have a few.

On the ED scope I can only guess (slightly doubtful) that it is still a bit too fast and also the eyepiece is a zoom, it has to work over a few focal lengths so should do all reasonably well but most likely just reasonably not brilliantly. Sort of Jack of all trades master of none situation. Bit odd we tell everyone not to consider zoom binoculars then often tell people to consider a zoom eyepiece.

It may be that the ED scope and the Hyperon are just not 100% compatible for whatever reason. Not every scope and eyepiece combination will be a perfect match. May be as simple as that.

Concerning what to look for, cannot give you anything. I bought an eyepiece and tried it, if that worked well then I bought others, if it didn't works then I put the purchase down to experience. Have ended up with TV Plossl's and BST Explorers, and a range of other eyepieces but not the full set unlike the TV's and BST's. The BST's have more consistant eye relief then the TV's. Never gone beyond those in budget, and doubt I will.

[Kef9]

When it comes to eyepieces you have to spend big to get the wow factor.

Look through an ethos and you will never turn back.

[faulksy]

i put a heads up post in the astro lounge, william optics 16mm ultra wide angle e.p. this would give you glourious views i think its what you are looking for

[Ohmless]

I wouldn't change a thing at first as there are several factors that might be at work. It could be the objective(I think your scope is somewhat good in regards to chromatic aberration), could be object observed, could be seeing, your experience observing, quality of focus, and eyepieces. Keeping your eye steady to get a good peek is a skill you will develop with time. A long eye relief eyepiece might make that easier for you to do.

If in doubt, go to a star party and try the eyepieces in other scopes and try different eyepieces in yours. Get their opinions also while you are there or even try to show up while everyone is still setting up so there is plenty of time to have others try to trouble shoot your scope.

exit pupil = aperture divided by magnification

I recommend 2mm and 1mm exit pupil magnifications for deep sky stuff. Only need to go higher in power when looking at lunar and planetary IMO

[John]

The OP has an ED80 and an ST80. He has not specified which scope (maybe both ?) the Hyperion is not delivering th goods with. The ED80 is an F/7.5 ED doublet of course so false colour won't be an issue.

The Hyperion zoom should show improvements over the standard eyepieces but 8mm (75x) is not going to be pushing the ED80 really as the scope is capable of supporting twice this magnification, seeing conditions allowing. At the other end of the scale the zoom delivers a rather narrow 24mm, so not really expansive views although they should be a touch crisper than the standard 25mm eyepiece can manage.

Can you be a little more specific about in what areas you feel unfulfilled by the zooms performance and in which scope ?

[alan potts]

Though not a Hyperion fan I would have thought at F7.5 it would have been decent. In my opion below F6 the are not very good, have to say that is when putting them against eyepieces costing much more. So I don't know why it is not showing clean views on the ED scope. A few people on site have had problems with this zoom and I too have had problems with Baader equipment.

Alan.

[andrew63]

I'm not a great fan of zooms, and you have already spent a lot of money. You couls consider BST Explores, often recommended as a good bases to start with. They are relatively cheap under £50, easy to look though with adjustable top, and give a quite generous 60 deg field. From feedback most are delighted with them. As you have a good 28mm 2" you could invest in a 8 or 12mm and see how you get on. If you like them you could easily sell on the zoom. But also try the zoom a bit more as observing conditions change.

As an aside, i recently used a BST 8mm after not using it for some time - and got a bit of a surprise. The view in my scope which is F7 was overall much 'cleaner' than the view in the Meade 8.8 UWA although not as expansive as that is 82 deg.

Hope you enjoy your new telescope - we have been lucky with the weather these last few days.

andrew

[Mark at Beaufort]

RKC I have the Hyperion zoom mk 2 and I find it ok on my Astro Tech f6.95 APO frac although the 24mm setting is a bit narrow. I have kept my Hyperion even though I have a collection of Ethos and Nagler EPs. There are so many reasonable mid priced EPs on the market and you really could do with trying before buying.

I note that you live in Worcestershire and I would recommend that you attend one of their meetings - I know they have regular observing nights and this would be a good way of seeing different EPs. There are members of Worcestershire Astro Society on this forum, some are very knowledgeable. I think there are similar Societies in North Worcestershire - Bromsgrove/Redditch in case you live in that area.

Hope you are able to sort things to your liking.

Mark

[Andrew*]

It sounds to me as if you are bothered by kidney beaning. This is a problem often found in eyepieces with TOO much eye relief, and shows as black patches appearing in the field of view and blocking the view. Extending the eye cup should help you position your eye easier. Kidney beaning is worse in daytime observing, and gets beret with practice. Hang in there!

Do you have any other issues with the views?

[E621Keith]

I am a new owner of an ED80 (which came with something described as a 2" 28mm LES eyepiece), and an ST80 which came with nondescript 1.5" 25mm and 10mm eyepieces.

The 28mm eyepiece is quite nice, at least to my inexperienced eyes. The 25 and 10mm eyepieces are so-so - need to get the eye in exactly the right place to see anything, but not too bad when you do.

After some searching of reviews, I bought a Baader Hyperion Zoom (mark III), thinking it would give me a higher quality eyepiece over the full 28-10mm range, and an opportunity to see what magnification was good for what before splashing out on anything else. It's not a cheap eyepiece, and I guess I was expecting something at least as nice as the included 28mm eyepiece.

I've not had THAT much chance to try it yet, but so far I've found it something of a disappointment - in particular it seems if anything harder to get the eye in the right position for viewing than even the eyepieces that came with the ST80. The zoom is nice, but the range is not quite enough....

I guess my question is, in order to avoid any future disappointment, what should I be looking for in the specs/reviews of an eyepiece to be able to pick one that will suit me? If an eyepiece requires precise positioning of the eye to see anything, is that a sign of insufficient exit pupil? Or insufficient eye relief? Or have I just set it up wrong / picked the wrong eyecup (it comes with three...)

Eye relief of zoom eyepieces is focal length dependent, so you are not going to get the same eye relief as a long eye relief fixed like the 28mm LER. You need to buy fixed focal length Hyperion, LVW, XW, Radian or Delos to get the same 20mm eye relief across the range. Most fixed focal length eyepieces, even those from Televue, do not offer 20mm eye relief.

Blackout is caused by incorrect eye placement. It can be caused by exit pupil that's too large as well as too small and eye relief. Once you learned the correct eye placement for a particular eyepiece, the problem will go away.

Zoom range is always going to be limited. 3x zoom range is about standard in astronomy. High quality zoom eyepiece usually have an even narrower range. You should buy a barlow if you want higher magnification. If you are loaded, Zeiss do a 3.75x (6.7-25.1mm) zoom and an astro adapter for just under £650.

Finally, atmospheric seeing is the biggest limitation at the moment. Over the past few months, I struggle push over 100x due to thin high level clouds. It's highly possible it was the atmosphere, rather than your eyepiece, that limited the clarity and sharpness.

[rkc]

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. My problem is not with the quality of the view when I get one, but with getting a view at all (rather than blackout) seeming to require very precise eye placement. I've tried it with both the ED80 and the ST80 and have similar issues with both. It probably is at least partly inexperience on my part (does seem to be getting better with practice), but I did't have any such problems with the included eyepiece.

I will experiment a bit more with the different eyecups and see if one of the alternative ones makes it easier for me to get my eye in the right place.

I am in the Bromsgrove area, so going to a local meeting would make a lot of sense - I'll see if I can work out when the next one is.

If I am reading the above correctly, the exit pupil is going to be the same (for a given scope) for any eyepiece of a given focal length, but the eye relief may vary. Does a larger eye relief mean it's easier to get your eye in the right place, or does it just change where that 'right place' is? And is it a fact of life that eye positioning gets more critical as the eyepiece focal length decreases and the exit pupil size decreases?

[E621Keith]

Exit pupil is a function of your telescope aperture and magnification, so yes. For any given scope, eyepiece with the same focal length will generate the same exit pupil.

Larger eye relief usually means easier eye placement, but excessive eye relief can make it difficult again.

[Stargazer_00]

Longer eye reliefs is usually the realm of the eyeglass wearer so they can fit the glasses in the way and still see all the AFOV.

I prefer a shortish eyerelieft so I can rest the side of the eyepiece on my nose to gauge exactly where my head needs to be. Trying to float your head in empty space, especially while standing, is extremely tiring. eyecups can also serve as 'rests', I use that termliberally because you dont want to be actually applying any pressure to the eyepiece with your nose, just using the slightest touch to orient your head.

[rkc]

What would be your definition of 'shortish' ?

I think the eye relief on the Hyperion zoom is 12-15mm (depending on the zoom setting).

I just did a bit of experimentation and I think it is an eye-relief issue that I am struggling with, in terms of getting the eye in the right place. Could just be a question of getting used to it and expectations...

Some other relevant info:

1. I also have a SW 200P DS scope, though I've not used it a lot yet (the ED80 is easier to set up while I get to know how everything works)

2. It's my birthday next week

I'm tempted to treat myself to a 10mm Ethos. Any reason I shouldn't ?

[John]

....I'm tempted to treat myself to a 10mm Ethos. Any reason I shouldn't ?....

Unless you use glasses when viewing, go ahead. The Ethos will work superbly with any scope

You might not want to use your zoom much after you get the Ethos though - it's very easy to develop a taste for them

[Stargazer_00]

A 9mm ES 100 would be considerably cheaper.. to the point the cost of a new Ethos might even go as far as 2 (!!) ES 100s!

[John]

Tele Vue options are expensive, no doubt about that. But the Ethos are pretty much the pinnacle of the 100 degree eyepieces in my opinion. Nobody does it better unless you can run to £1K eyepieces.

[rkc]

Tele Vue options are expensive, no doubt about that. But the Ethos are pretty much the pinnacle of the 100 degree eyepieces in my opinion. Nobody does it better unless you can run to £1K eyepieces.

Please don't tell me about them!