Looking at messiers

[brascoe]

Ive never actually look at one through a scope im interested in knowing if when i do eventually look all the different ones will there be ones with differnet colours or are they all shades of whites and grays. I know thethe objects i will be viewing will be nothing like the ones in magazines etc...

[brascoe]

I was wondering when i do eventually get to look at the different messiers are they all white and grays or have some of them full of different colours. I might be viewing through a 10" dob and the correct eyepiece for viewing messiers. I know i cant expect them to look as good as the ones in the magazines etc....

[rocketandroll]

No, you won't see colour in any deep sky objects unless with a REALLY big scope, and even then I think only a little.

Most will just appear shades of grey... most galaxies will appear as feint smudges of grey in different shapes, until you get up above 12" scopes, then I think you can start really seeing some structure/shape to the brighter ones.

Some objects, like M42, you can see a good amount of detail in even with a relatively small scope as they are so bright.

Ben

[John]

Shades of grey really. A little lime green can sometimes be seen in the Orion Nebula, M42 with a medium / larger aperture scope but thats about it. Have a look in the sketching section - drawings / sketches are more representative of what can be seen visually than photos are.

Edit: Ben and I typing at the same time there - Ben faster than me !

[Moonshane]

you will never see objects like in magazines and only with serious aperture, maybe 30" plus, will you see them anything like.

at modest aperture (up to 16") you'll see them mainly as grey fuzzy blobs or star clusters of course.

concentrate on what you are seeing though and read a bit and then you'll be in awe that something millions of light years away can even be seen!

[John]

I've just merged the thread that brascoe started in the Tutorials section with this one to keep things tidy.

Hope that's OK

[brascoe]

I've just merged the thread that brascoe started in the Tutorials section with this one to keep things tidy.

Hope that's OK

Thanks i realised after i posted it that i put it in the wrong thread was wondering how to move it but job done thanks for that.

[matsey]

Also, if you can, I would definitely recommend getting hold of the book Turn Left at Orion... it's not strictly specific to Messier objects (although it does have a fair few), but it does give a good indication of what you'll really see in a small telescope... when I first got my scope a few months ago I found it really useful, not just for realistically setting my expectations of what I'm likely to see, but also for locating the item as well.

Having said that, there is a new edition of the book coming out on 30th September, so maybe hold off until then to get the new version...

Matsey

EDIT: just seen your other post titled "Turn Left at Orion"... I guess you already know about the book then?!!

[brascoe]

I was going to buy it the otherday but saw a new edition is out end of the month so will wait till then in the mean time im scouting the countryside for no light pollution lol

[JimStan]

The reason you cannot see color through a telescope is because the level of light that you are going to see is below the threshold of what is needed to perceive color with our eyes. That is the same reason why a dark rooms appears to be monochrome at night time, while color floods our vision when we turn on the light in the same room!

It doesn't take an extremely large scope to reveal color in the M and NGC objects, if you take pictures of them with a DSLR or CCD camera ! In fact, there are some outstandly beautiful color images here on the forum that were taken with scopes with as small as a 127mm objective !

Digital sensors are just that much more capable of extracting the color information from those objects then the human eye is. ( Long exposures don't hurt, either ! )

Jim S.

[Doc]

The only messier that I ever saw colour in with my 16" dob was M42, it appeared green and I swaer a hint and i do mean a small hint of pink on the outer edges, but that was under very dark skies.

The blue Snowball looked blue and there was one which I cannot remember the name off but it was in Cetus or was it Lupus, that appeared pink in colour.

[bish]

The Night Sky Atlas by Robin scagell (pub phillips) is a good all round book that has a number of illustrations of sketches next to the photos. The sketches have been made using various size scopes, and shows how even in an 18" scope DSO's can still be a small smudge.

[umadog]

It's true that the smaller DSOs (e.g. many of the galaxies in the Virgo cluster) will look like little fuzzy patches but the showcase objects are stunning and will even reveal rich detail if you're patient. In good skies, an experienced observer with a moderate instrument (8") will see things that very closely resemble these sketches. http://www.deepskywatch.com/deepsky-sketches.html Under the same skies, a beginner would probably need a larger instrument to see the same level of detail. I should emphasise the importance of good skies. The drawings you see are made under conditions with little or no light pollution and excellent transparency. You can't control transparency so much, but taking your telescope to darker skies will make vast difference to what you can see. If you want to see detail then good targets include the Veil Nebula (east and west portions), M42, M8, M17, M16, M20, M31, M27, M57, to name but a few. There's plenty see in globular clusters and open clusters also. Galaxies are fascinating but the details are more subtle.

There was an interesting thread a while ago on Cloudy Nights about colour in M42. I couldn't find the thread I'm thinking of, but I did find these:

Telescope Reviews: Seeing Color in M42

Telescope Reviews: Color in M42

I have seen two sorts of colour in M42. Viewing it at dusk in a 12", I have seen a very pronounced green colour. Viewing it at night in a 12", I have seen subtle pink and rust colouring in the "wings" flanking the trapezium region. I don't think you need particularly dark skies, since it's cone vision that's needed to see these colours. Not rod vision. I've done it an mag 5.5 skies. You have to remember that the colours are subtle. It's not striking but it is there. I'm betting a smaller scope would show it too, but you'd have to know what you were looking for. I don't know of any other DSOs where I've clearly seen colour. Some bright planetaries give me a hint of colour, but I'm never sure. For example, the Blue Snowball isn't quite white to my eyes but I can't tell if I see green or blue.

[matsey]

Jimstan - I really like your explanation with the dark room/no colour example, that is such a good way of explaining why we're not seeing the colour

What Moonshine says though about learning a bit about what you're looking at is excellent advice, and something I've found really does add a whole extra dimension to the observing experience. Yes, when I'm looking at a galaxy I may only being able to visually see a small fuzzy blob, but knowing how incredibly far away that galaxy is, knowing that the fuzziness is really millions of stars and that a fair number of those stars will have planets orbiting them, that's when it really does blow my mind. Yes, of course I enjoy the beautiful views, the coloured doubles, the incredible star clusters, but that buzz I get having just a smidge of understanding of what I'm really looking at is really incredible and does not disappoint at all

[bish]

It's true that the smaller DSOs (e.g. many of the galaxies in the Virgo cluster) will look like little fuzzy patches but the showcase objects are stunning and will even reveal rich detail if you're patient. In good skies, an experienced observer with a moderate instrument (8") will see things that very closely resemble these sketches. Deep Sky Sketches - Deep Sky Watch Under the same skies, a beginner would probably need a larger instrument to see the same level of detail. I should emphasise the importance of good skies. The drawings you see are made under conditions with little or no light pollution and excellent transparency. You can't control transparency so much, but taking your telescope to darker skies will make vast difference to what you can see. If you want to see detail then good targets include the Veil Nebula (east and west portions), M42, M8, M17, M16, M20, M31, M27, M57, to name but a few. There's plenty see in globular clusters and open clusters also. Galaxies are fascinating but the details are more subtle.

There was an interesting thread a while ago on Cloudy Nights about colour in M42. I couldn't find the thread I'm thinking of, but I did find these:

Telescope Reviews: Seeing Color in M42

Telescope Reviews: Color in M42

I have seen two sorts of colour in M42. Viewing it at dusk in a 12", I have seen a very pronounced green colour. Viewing it at night in a 12", I have seen subtle pink and rust colouring in the "wings" flanking the trapezium region. I don't think you need particularly dark skies, since it's cone vision that's needed to see these colours. Not rod vision. I've done it an mag 5.5 skies. You have to remember that the colours are subtle. It's not striking but it is there. I'm betting a smaller scope would show it too, but you'd have to know what you were looking for. I don't know of any other DSOs where I've clearly seen colour. Some bright planetaries give me a hint of colour, but I'm never sure. For example, the Blue Snowball isn't quite white to my eyes but I can't tell if I see green or blue.

Very true. My comment above was probably a bit negative. The veil from a good site is great. There are plenty of clusters that look good even under light pollution and even the smudges can have subtle details.

[Manok101]

With my 10" on high magnification I can see some detail, enough to know what I am looking at, with some globular clusters I can see some star seperation. It depends on what I am looking at though. Its much harder to see certain nebula. Those mostly appear cloud like, and you're not always entirely sure (unless its a very clear night) what it is you're looking at. At home, galaxies just look like faint featureless blobs, but when I take my scope to a dark site, there is no doubt at all what I am looking at.

[JimStan]

It helps to remember that the sketches have often been made by experienced stargazers, and that they will pick moments of excellent seeing when something "pops" out of the background and then is comitted to paper.

Don't expect to see EVERYTHING that shows up in a good sketch right off the bat!

Jim S.

[umadog]

That's true, Jim. I have often found that one may have to search for details seen in a sketch and they aren't all visible at the same time. This is probably because you're searching for stuff right at the edges of visibility and you must concentrate on that specific feature. In that respect, DSOs may not look like the sketch.

Also, I have found that it may take some time to realise what a particular feature looks like through the eyepiece. Having seen a feature in dark skies one may well then be able to see it in more light-polluted skies. Similarly, one sees more through smaller apertures having spent time with bigger apertures. Having someone point out features to you also helps.

[Moonshane]

I agree with this. It's the same with actually detecting an object too. You can sometimes really struggle to find a target for what seems like ages. Then when found, you can find it first time every time and wonder how you could have missed it before! It's a matter of learning how to see. Sounds weird but it's true.

[GodsPredeces0r]

Just curious but will i be able to see the colors of messier objects using filters ?

The specs of the scope i ordered say it was made to see deep sky objects and is only a 120mm ?

[John]

Just curious but will i be able to see the colors of messier objects using filter even with a smaller aperture say 120mm ?

Not visually, no. messier objects and other deep sky objects are basically shades of grey even with quite large aperture scopes. There are one or two exceptions but even then the "colours" are the subtlest of tints at best and not seen by all observers.

[umadog]

"The specs of the scope i ordered say it was made to see deep sky objects and is only a 120mm"

Sounds like marketing speak.

You have to understand that DSOs have no visible colour because they're too faint to activate your eye's cone photoreceptors. A filter is going to make DSOs fainter, not brighter. So there's no way a filter will help you see colour in DSOs.

[Moonshane]

with the obvious exception of stars which are also of course DSOs which like nebula are within our own galaxy. e.g. the double star Beta Cygni (Albireo). so I suppose technically their blurb is correct but not in the way they perhaps lead you to think by showing coloured images of the Orion Nebula for example.