Hardware and software advice needed for upgrading to guided imaging

[ianpwilliams]

Hi all, I did some unguided imaging last winter and got various photos of various targets which I was pretty happy with. This winter I'm considering upgrading to a guided setup, but I'm unsure as to what hardware to go with, and especially what software to go with.

On the hardware front it seems that I need a guide cam (I considered an autoguider at one point but that seems to have fallen by the wayside), and either a 9x50 straight-through finderscope with the relevant adaptor, or maybe an ST80 as a guide scope. Would anyone have any suggestions regarding these two options for my Skywatcher 130-PDS?

On the software front I'm completely lost! I've briefly read about PHD2, Astro Tortilla, EQMOD (which needs an adaptor if connecting directly tot he mount), Polar Finder (I usually use my phone app for this), Backyard EOS, and APT, to name but a few. So to prevent me from becoming overwhelmed, I'm trying to work out what software I should be focussing on. I get the impression that there isn't a single piece of software that covers everything, or maybe there is? I have a Canon 1100D so Backyard EOS seems to be the way to go. Could anyone give me an idea of what software I should be looking at? Oh, and I should have mentioned, to begin with the intention is to do more unguided imaging, but using a laptop and software for the first time, and hopefully not having to use the SynScan at all, because if I'm going to use a laptop then why not have it do everything? Then after that I would buy the guiding hardware upgrade, and then use whatever extra software that I would need for that (PHD2?). So any help would be much appreciated.

[Tinker1947]

EQMod, PHD2, Stellarium and Stellarium Scope that's the GoTo and Guiding Software sorted and it's all free, a Finder Scope with a Guide cam is a good way to go, Modern Astronomy do Adapters i used one with a Lodestar worked very well... 

[ianpwilliams]

So I suppose the first thing to do is buy one of these cables so that I can connect my laptop direct to the mount:

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-cables-leads-accessories/hitecastro-eqdir-adapter.html

Is there any advantage that Backyard EOS provides that any of those others don't, given that it's paid software, and geared towards using a Canon?

Also, why would I need Stellarium? At the moment I only use that to choose targets for imaging and star alignment when planning my session, but not during the session itself.

And does anyone know any websites which list all these pieces of software, and ideally describes them and compares them?

[D4N]

The simplest way in my opinion is to buy a guide camera that has an ST4 port (like an asi120) along with a guide scope or finder guider.

The camera should come with the right cable to connect to both the mount and your computer.

Now you just use PHD2 to talk to the camera and the camera will talk to the scope.

You can go down the ascom route and that path will still be open to you but it requires extra software and a serial connection from our computer to the mount.

The guide camera will then also double up as a planetary camera if you want to do a bit of that.

I'm not knocking ascom it's just that guiding can be a real pain to set up and you don't want to have to set up two things at once.

/Dan

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ianpwilliams]

Sounds good, but if I go to the mount via the camera, would that prevent me from using whatever software there is for help with polar aligning, and software for using GOTO?

[Marky1973]

I've kept it simple to start. ASI120MM guide camera with and ST80. PHD2 for guiding and APT for controlling the imaging camera. I find targets with the Synscan handset. All works very well and is a nice, simple way to get started. I may go down the ASCOM route eventually but I'm still figuring out this whole imaging thing....

[ianpwilliams]

Could I use BackyardEos instead of APT?

And what if I wanted to try using the laptop with my unguided setup first to try to get used to it? Presumably I would need that cable then?

I worry that it could feel even more complicated switching between the laptop and SynScan.

[carastro]

Sounds good, but if I go to the mount via the camera, would that prevent me from using whatever software there is for help with polar aligning, and software for using GOTO? 

The guiding via PHD is a cable which goes from the camera to the laptop via a USB cable, and if you get a guide camera with an ST4 port, that cable will go directly to your guide port on the mount, the guiding is still controlled by the laptop.  (If you don't get a guide camera with an ST4 port the cabling is a bit different to that).  

For EQmod you use a separate EQdir cable I think like the one you linked and this is also connected to the laptop enabling you to control the mount and via this cable and AScom you can also do things like use Alignmaster to fine tune your PA.  

EQMod works by interfacing with a planetarium for the GOTO part and you can either use Carte Du Ciel, or Some people use Stellarium for this, but it's not quite so easy to set up Stellarium as CDC though some seem to have managed it.  

HTH

Carole 

[ianpwilliams]

So I could begin with ASI120mm guide cam and ST80 guide scope, then polar align as normal, use SynScan to do star alignment, then use PHD2 to guide, and possibly APT to control the camera? Then I could avoid ASCOM platform stuff like EQMOD, but the disadvantage would be that I couldn't use programs to fine tune polar alignment, or use programs for GOTO.

Is that all correct?

And is the ASI120 any good? It seems very cheap compared to the others, and FLO don't seem to sell it.

[Tinker1947]

You do need a GoTo system to image DSO's as most of them you can't see, so with EQMod and CdC or Stellarium, you Goto a bright star near your DSO, sync the software (press a button) then pick another Star on the opposite side again Sync this, so now you GoTo the DSO it will be on your camera sensor, accurate Sync's mean it will be centred, it quick and easy and reliable...

[ianpwilliams]

But I thought that EQMOD etc needs ASCOM? And EQMOD would need the laptop/mount cable.

My HEQ5 Pro SynScan has GoTo.

So it looks like I need to decide whether to use ASCOM or not to begin with.

[Marky1973]

I don't know BYEOS but I am pretty sure it does the same job as APT. 

Cabling-wise, as Carole says, the ASI120 is connected to the guiding port on the mount and via usb to the laptop. You open up PHD2 and it pretty much works off the bat. Yes, there are a lot of settings you can change, and I found things improved after I worked through the manual and played around a bit but it should, essentially, work out of the box. In truth I had a few problems getting it running, but now, largely, have few problems with it and have managed 7 minute subs so far.

The ASI120 works really well too. I managed to get one for £190 (ex-display) but they appear more cheaply than that from time to time second hand. Again, I had a few false starts with it, but have slowly gotten used to it and manage to get it working quickly enough each time out. The QHY cameras are well regarded too, so worth a look.

I think this is probably the "easiest" route to guiding but as long as you are prepared for the first couple of nights to involve a bit of experimentation, I don't think you will be too upset.

[ianpwilliams]

Ok so ASI120mm and ST80 should be enough to get started then (I have USB cables and an ST4 cable).

Is this the right camera:

http://www.365astronomy.com/ZWO-ASI120MM-Monochrome-1-3-CMOS-USB2.0-Camera-with-Autoguider-Port.html

Because it's only £160 and new as well, whereas all the "Q" ones seem to be £300+

[Marky1973]

Yep, that's the right one - didn't realise they had come down in price - looks a good deal to me!

This is a blog post I was reading to get an idea of what was involved with ASCOM as well that might be of interest in the future.

http://lightvortexastronomy.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/tutorial-imaging-setting-up-equatorial.html

[D4N]

Hold on a moment I don't have a skywatcher mount but I thought that the since the SynScan is full go to it doesn't need eqmod? So far as I know eqmod is to control the syntrek months via a PC.

To control a SynScan mount via a computer all you should need is a serial cable (and a USB serial adaptor if you don't have a serial port) and some software to talk to the mount.

You can use ascom and associated programs to do this.

If you just want to guide you can use a guide cam with an st4 port to achieve this easily and it doesn't interfere with mount control if you do decide to do that too.

PHD2 can fine tune polar alignment and it doesn't need ascom to do it.

I don't know why flo don't stock the asi cameras. They are regarded as being very good as both planetary cameras and guide cameras. I have an asi120mm myself.

/Dan

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ianpwilliams]

I think the suggestion of EQMOD was so that I could control everything using the laptop (polar alignment fine tuning, star alignment, GoTo, and guiding) rather than switching between laptop and SynScan. And if I'm going to use a laptop then I would certainly like to eliminate the SynScan completely. But it sounds like that would require ASCOM.

So to begin with maybe I should go with the ASI and ST80, just using PHD2 for laptop guiding, and SynScan for all the star alignment, GoTo etc. and APT or BYEOS for camera control (unless BYEOS is ASCOM too?).

[ianpwilliams]

So I suppose the question would be whether to go for a 9x50 (with adaptor) or an ST80 to use with the ASI?

[cjdawson]

Something else to throw out there.  I've recently replaced my autoguider with one of these.

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/guide-cameras/skywatcher-synguider-autoguider.html

Actually, I have the SynGuider II (it's got a USB port instead of a serial port) and had success photoing M57, using Vega as the guide star on my last imaging session.

ok ok, I know that Vega is super mega bright, but it was close by, and I didn't want to spend a perfect evening calibrating everything.

The Synguider will screw directly onto the ST80, or as I have done will happily screw onto a flip mirror.  It's got an ST-4 output, and I know from experience that if you can get to lock onto a star, it'll guide happily all night long.

The screen isn't bright, which I found nice to use when I was giving it it's first run.  Also having the image of the star in the screen is reassuring.

The Synguider is capable of 2 second exposures, but it is limited to only being an auto guider rather than being a guider and camera.

[ianpwilliams]

My original plan was to get one of those, especially because it would have meant not needing a laptop. But I was pursuaded into going down the guide cam route instead, and I think it's probably for the best that I stick with that.

[wxsatuser]

I have moved to a standalone guider, Lacerta MGEN.

All I have now is CdC and EQmod on the laptop.

The Lacerta does exposure control and dithering but is a big outlay.

[Tinker1947]

I have moved to a standalone guider, Lacerta MGEN.

All I have now is CdC and EQmod on the laptop.

The Lacerta does exposure control and dithering but is a big outlay.

Does look impressive, i would think Atik and Starlight will be going that way soon...... 

[ianpwilliams]

So I suppose the question would be whether to go for a 9x50 (with adaptor) or an ST80 to use with the ASI?

Anyone have any opinions on this?

[Marky1973]

I think either or to be honest -you will find people on SGL who use both and all will be happy with their set-up. I have only used the ST80/ZWO combo, so can't comment on the finder, but the main issues are probably weight and flexure. The ST80 and ZWo will add more weight to your mount than the Finder/guider combo, but there may be more flexure with the finder, depending on the brackets/fixings used to secure it. These are sweeping generalisations though and both set-ups will work. You might have to think about balancing the scope as well - might be harder with the 130PDS having an ST80 on top of it...I dunno, I haven't tried....those are the more important things to consider I think. 

One finder guider I considered was the Altair Astro set-up - seems well regarded - dunno about your budget, but it would be a light-weight option.....

https://www.altairastro.com/altair-60mm-miniguider-with-autoguider-webcam-focuser-tube-rings-multi-purpose-base.html

[wxsatuser]

I have the 60mm Altair scope, it does the business for me.

[ianpwilliams]

Weight would be an issue for me, not only because of balancing, tracking and guiding (the 130PDS is a lovely scope but it is small and lightweight), but also because of carrying everything up and down stairs. So that would make me lean towards the 9x50, or possibly the Altair. This does raise some questions though:

Is the Altair similar to the 9x50 in terms of size and weight?

What would be the advantages of going for the Altair over the 9x50, given that one is £150 and the other is £60?

Would I need an adaptor to fit the ASI cam to the Altair? Would need an adaptor to fit the ASI cam to the 9x50 in the same way that I would have needed an adaptor to fit the Synguider to the 9x50?

When asking Modern Astronomy about a Synguider/9x50 adaptor I was advised that I would need to adjust the objective lens in order to reach focus. Assuming that I go for the ASI (which is looking extremely likely now), would I need to adjust the objective lens or either or both of the Altair and the 9x50?

And finally, when you say "flexure", you of course mean...?