I need help, I've got the bug (Astrotrac vs. HEQ5)

[Rico]

Right, so first of all, I just want to say hi! I've spent a lot of time browsing through some of the posts on this forum, and what can i say other than ... wow.

Photography has always been a bit of a hobby of mine, but recently, with the little ones, I haven't had much time to go out and tinker with my camera. I came a cross a few astrophotography pictures and I was very quickly sucked into the world of DSOs, stacking and equipment. 

I currently own a 7D, with a few lenses (some of which are L lenses) including a Samyang 10mm f/2.8, 100mm macro f/2.8 L and 70-300mm f/4-5.6.

Although currently stacking shorter exposures in DSS to get the most of out of what I have, I've come to the realisation that a motorised tracking mount is the way to go. Now here's the problem I see most of us come across ... what do I get!

My initial thoughts are either a HEQ5 pro with GOTO or an Astrotrac.

I already own a manfrotto 055Pro tripod with a 3way pro head, which I was hoping to use with the Astrotrac. But from what i've read, a geared head is preferred for minor adjustments. I've seen nothing but praises for the astrotrac, which claims to have very good unguided performance.  

However, in order to future proof my setup ... an HEQ5 mount which will roughly cost the same as an astrotrac, after I've factored in a new head and the polar scope seems like a sensible option. I also have the option of accessorising this mount with a shiny new telescope ;o).

 

Now my backyard, doesn’t have the darkest of skies … images are washed out with light pollution after long exposures … but nothing a bit of post processing can’t deal with. So portability is relatively important to me, and I need to be able to setup relatively quickly.  

 

So, down to the crux of the post … are HEQ5 pros too fiddly to setup and get right for unguided tracking? Whats a realistic exposure length on a 300mm lens … unguided. The setup won’t have a permanent position in my garden … so how long will I expect to take to setup my HEQ5 for imaging? Do I need to guide an HEQ5 to come close to the performance of a lightly loaded Astrotrac?

 

Apologies for the long post. If you’ve read this far … I really appreciate your time!

[PhotoGav]

Hello Rico and welcome to the Lounge. Sounds like you've been doing your homework! Now, I have never used an Astrotrac, so can't comment on that, but have been using an HEQ5 Pro for the last year and a bit, so have some thoughts on that...

If you are serious about DSO photography there is no doubt that you will end up wanting to use some kind of guiding set up to get the longest sub lengths possible for your skies and camera. The HEQ5 has got to be the way forwards for that.

It is definitely portable. I have taken my set up out to dark sky locations with no problems, but I certainly wouldn't really want anything bigger and heavier. The HEQ5 is the way forwards for a guidable yet portable set up.

Time to set up will shorten with experience. When my HEQ5 arrived and I put it up in the living room, I thought oh jeez, I've overdone this, how am I ever going to suss this beast out. Anyway with practice you can be set up from scratch and imaging in about 45mins. I have now set up my mount in the garden and it leave it there covered between sessions. My set up time is down to about 15 mins.

All in all, the HEQ5 is a great mount that you can get good images with. It is portable, in the boot of a car. It also allows you to indulge your passion much further in time by managing to cope with quite a long upgrade path. Though eventually you will want to build an obsy, install a permanent pier with high end mount and huge scopes!

Good luck and enjoy.

[GarethA]

Having used both - if you want quick setup, portability and an easier learning curve then go for the astrotrac.

With the lenses you have the astrotrac will be more than adequate once you get the hang of polar aligning and you'll be getting results quickly.

The heq5 will be more "future proof" for putting scopes on later on....  but you'll have lots of fun with the astrotrac while you save up for the heq5 *as well*

Not sure exactly which head you have but the manfrotto 410 is great for polar aligning and they come up second hand all the time.

One essential bit of kit you'll need is a cheap red dot finder to attach to your hotshoe - once you get it aligned it makes finding stuff much easier!

[Rico]

Thanks for the input Gav. Its reassuring to here you say that the HEQ5 is portable, I suppose it can sometimes come down to the size of the telescope that's being used as well. I guess I may need to factor in guiding equipment as well ... which from what I've seen will cost between £300-400. Astronomical prices ... pun definitely intended ... lol. So, so far ... HEQ5 GOTO with a modest telescope and guiding equipment comes in at about £1400 whereas an astrotrac with the necessaries, comes in at about £1k without a telescope. So far, swaying towards a HEQ5 ... with the intention of buying a guider in the future. 

What sort of exposure times do you get unguided?

I'm from Bath/Bristol ... so not too far from you. What sort of setup do you have in your garden? It would be awesome if I could leave it relatively untouched between sessions. 

[kalasinman]

Welcome to SGL. With your enthusiasm, you will be an asset to the community. I went through a similar decision myself this year. Falling in love with astrophotography and starting with a DSLR on a tripod. I have a Nikon D5100 a 12-28, a 10mm macro, and a 400mm prime. Trying to look forward to buying a scope at some point, I wanted to future proof a little as well. After much investigation, I bought the Ioptron ZEQ25GT. It's a new design, receiving a US Patent this year. As many things are these days, it's made in China. The only problems I have had with it, other than beginner error, have been due to poor assembly at the factory. I'd been aware of this from the start, and as my life has been in various mechanical pursuits, I looked forward to leveraging some tinkering into getting a great mount for the money. If you dig into comments here and elsewhere, unguided sub exposures of over 2 minutes are almost unheard of with mounts even twice the price or more. This mount has started giving me 5 minute unguided subs. When I get the balance right, I have experienced 100% out of 20.

Others imaging with this mount with larger scopes and guiding are happy and produce good work, including a fair number using 8" RC's.

Ioptron support is simply top, which is so important and somewhat rare.

Besides Ioptron support, there is a growing community of users who are happy to advise and assist others achieve great images.

Ioptron had one of the best polar scopes made, which combined with an aid to actual polar position in the hand controller make polar alignment a breeze.

I opted for the 2" tripod as I do plan on loading this thing up with the biggest kit I can afford one day. It also can adjust higher than the supplied tripod.

Whatever you decide, I wish you Clear Skies, and please share the great images you will be producing.--Jack

P.S. Portability? Mount with CW and 2" tripod comes in at 10kg with a 12kg payload capacity.-J

[FunkyKoval35]

 I guess I may need to factor in guiding equipment as well ... which from what I've seen will cost between £300-400.

I paid for my guiding setup - ST80 + QHY5 Mono + bits - about £200.

With SW150/750 scope on my HEQ5, and good polar alignment,  I able to make up to 60 - 80s exposures without star trials(image zoomed).

[jgs001]

I have both... but for the past year or so, I've been using the Astrotrac exclusively... This is because I do not have a permanent setup, and having a bad back, I find the HEQ5 to much of a challenge to have to carry outside. With short focal lengths... 50mm and below, using either the AT or the HEQ5 unguided (as long as you have a reasonable polar alignment) is a doddle. For this sort of focal length, a 3 way head with the AT is fine. Go beyond this sort of focal length, and you really need a geared head for the Astrotrac to get a more accurate polar alignment. Although, to date, I've not really pushed it to see what the maximum length sub is. With the HEQ5, I've achieved 4 minute unguided subs with an 80ED (600mm focal length), but that was a one off, and typically 3 minutes is achievable. This is polar aligning with the polar scope only. 

Both the AT (the new version) and the HEQ5 are capable of guiding... With the HEQ5, my test setup is to use 1200mm and run for a 20 minute exposure.. Typically this does not show any issues and the tracking is spot on. I've not tried guiding on the Astrotrac. According to the specifications, both have the same load limit, although I'm not sure I'd want to put a long/large tube on the astrotrac on a camera tripod, as I suspect, the wind profile would be too high, and likely to tip things over because of the way standard tripod underneath. This is not an issue with the HEQ5, and I suspect, if you have the full astrotrac travel kit, including the pier and wedge, this would not be an issue with the Astrotrac either. 

The thing is, both are very capable performers, but they serve different purposes. To help you get a better idea, I'd strongly recommend that you purchase and read

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

as this will give you some better idea (although the version I have doesn't discuss Astrotracs ) hopefully, of the direction you want to go in, which really has to be the crux of the decision making process.

Either way though, I don't think you'll regret either purchase, although you may regret the amount of hair pulling and frustration that goes hand in hand with any astro photography until you get the results at the end, and then it's all worth it.

[Rico]

Not sure exactly which head you have but the manfrotto 410 is great for polar aligning and they come up second hand all the time.

Thanks Gareth. The head I have isn't geared ... but yes, the 410 seems like a good alternative to the 405 for half the price.

After much investigation, I bought the Ioptron ZEQ25GT. It's a new design, receiving a US Patent this year. 

Lol ... adding another option to my list? The choices are endless!

I paid for my guiding setup - ST80 + QHY5 Mono + bits - about £200.

With SW150/750 scope on my HEQ5, and good polar alignment,  I able to make up to 60 - 80s exposures without star trials(image zoomed).

Thanks Koval. I'll take a look at that setup ... cheaper than what I was looking at. 60-80s seems good. I've heard of 3 minutes on the astrotrac unguided with a dslr. I guess the gearing setup is completely different, so this isn't surprising.

With the HEQ5, I've achieved 4 minute unguided subs with an 80ED (600mm focal length), but that was a one off, and typically 3 minutes is achievable. This is polar aligning with the polar scope only. 

...

The thing is, both are very capable performers, but they serve different purposes. To help you get a better idea, I'd strongly recommend that you purchase and read

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

as this will give you some better idea (although the version I have doesn't discuss Astrotracs ) hopefully, of the direction you want to go in, which really has to be the crux of the decision making process.

Either way though, I don't think you'll regret either purchase, although you may regret the amount of hair pulling and frustration that goes hand in hand with any astro photography until you get the results at the end, and then it's all worth it.

Jas ... thanks for the link ... I'll bury my face in that article ... maybe I'll be enlightened.

The ease of the Astrotrac seems to be really appealing! But at that price .. I might as well bite the bullet and go for the HEQ5 ... seems like a better investment ... correct me if I'm wrong! 

[Rico]

Jgs001 ... your selling it to me with those numbers 

With the HEQ5, I've achieved 4 minute unguided subs with an 80ED (600mm focal length), but that was a one off, and typically 3 minutes is achievable. This is polar aligning with the polar scope only. 

Both the AT (the new version) and the HEQ5 are capable of guiding... With the HEQ5, my test setup is to use 1200mm and run for a 20 minute exposure.. Typically this does not show any issues and the tracking is spot on. 

[jgs001]

... I've not tried a comparable test with the Astrotrac, for the reasons I gave... so it's hard to compare... Of the two, if you're wanting to use more than just lenses, then yes, go for the HEQ5. But, before spending money, read Steve's book... 

[Psychobilly]

As an alternative to either of the geared heads - I have the 405  - Have a look at the Wedge for the Skywatcher Star Adventurer...

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-star-adventurer/skywatcher-star-adventurer-equatorial-wedge.html

Peter...

[Rico]

... I've not tried a comparable test with the Astrotrac, for the reasons I gave... so it's hard to compare... Of the two, if you're wanting to use more than just lenses, then yes, go for the HEQ5. But, before spending money, read Steve's book...

Your advice is duly taken ... Ordering the book now.

[Psychobilly]

If your 055  (I have the 055XPROB) is not the latest model the mechanism for switching the column from Vertical to horizontal is a source of flexure...

Peter...

[Richie092]

I have both and now tend to just use the HEQ5. I laid a patio and stuck a shed next to it so all I have to do is lift the HEQ5 out of the double doors. I purchased the Astrotrac mainly for traveling as we were often away for long weekends etc but with the arrival of our puppy earlier in the year it is gathering dust. It is a first class bit of kit, I got the wedge with it that made life a little easier.

Having said all that I do love my HEQ5 - another 2 or 3 seasons and I might even have it mastered and produce a post worthy image ...

[swag72]

I have never used an Astrotrac, not even seen one, but there's a few folks on here that get some top drawer images from them and a camera lens. I can however vouch for the HEQ5. I had one for a couple of years and it was a cracking mount. Definitely portable. With a guiding setup I was able to pull out 30 minute subs with no problems. The HEQ5 is a lot of scope for the money really.

[Richie092]

It's your settings I am using on my guiding set up

I still haven't had 30 min subs but they are getting longer. My main problem with the astrotrac was framing and focus.

[Rico]

Thank you all for your input. Plan of action:

read Steve Richards book;

See a friend's guided setup to let me know what's involved;

and then after that after get myself the equipment ... Which at this stage is more likely to be a HEQ5.

I'll keep you guys 'posted'.

[PhotoGav]

Rico,

Lot's of good advice pouring in here! As people have said - either option will give you plenty of mileage and great results once mastered.

I leave just the tripod with the mount head attached in the garden between sessions. I cover it first with a tea-towel, then a bin liner and finally with a heavy duty kettle BBQ cover. That has withstood some full on downpours! The great thing is that the Polar Alignment is not lost, so at the next set-up I just attach the scope and camera (which I leave all connected together on the dining room table between sessions of a single project - thanks to my understanding family!), connect up power and laptop and hey ho off we go!

If you fancy, you are more than welcome to 'pop over' to Marlborough and see the kit in action if that would help. May be a while before there's a clear dark night at this rate though!

[Rico]

I hope the author doesn't mind posting a link ... But I'm blown away by these unguided images taken using a dslr and an AstroTrac (3 min subs with a 200mm telephoto).

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/fyngyrz/sets/72157622309410941/

[Scott]

I also have an Astrotrac and an EQ mount. I would say of the two, the AT gets the most use. I have my neq6 pier mounted at home and use the At when I travel or can only grab an hr or two.

I've not used my 60mm frac ont the AT yet but am reliably informed it will handle it with ease.

As Peter has already mentioned, The skywatcher wedge looks a great alternative to the Astrotrac one and weighs in at around £55 compared to nearly £300 for the AT one. something to think about anyway

[Psychobilly]

I hope the author doesn't mind posting a link ... But I'm blown away by these unguided images taken using a dslr and an AstroTrac (3 min subs with a 200mm telephoto).

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/fyngyrz/sets/72157622309410941/

Taking nothing away from those images but have a look on here for StuartJPP's 500mm FL images with the Astrotrac...

Just two examples...

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/226515-m42-the-great-nebula-in-orion-from-a-hotel-balcony/#entry2439175

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/226253-horsehead-barnard-33-and-flame-nebula-ngc-2024/#entry2436253

Peter...

[Dr_Ju_ju]

As Psychobilly, has already pointed out the Skywatcher wedge looks to be good value, but I was interested in the complete Skywatcher Star Adventurer Astronomy Bundle, as at £300 all in it looks to be a bargain.

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-mounts/skywatcher-star-adventurer-astronomy-bundle.html

Has anyone played with one ??

[Rico]

I also have an Astrotrac and an EQ mount. I would say of the two, the AT gets the most use. I have my neq6 pier mounted at home and use the At when I travel or can only grab an hr or two.

I've not used my 60mm frac ont the AT yet but am reliably informed it will handle it with ease.

As Peter has already mentioned, The skywatcher wedge looks a great alternative to the Astrotrac one and weighs in at around £55 compared to nearly £300 for the AT one. something to think about anyway

Oh my ... if this hobby takes off and I end up with both AT and HeQ5 on my dining room table, I'll know who to blame ...

[michaelmorris]

I too have both an AT and an HEQ5 pro. The set up time on my astrotrac is around 15 minutes, if not less. For the HEQ5 (with just a camera on it) its more like 45 minutes. The AT is a far more portable set up.

I mount the AT on one of Celestron's £90 Alt-Az mounts. This has a fully geared head that, if tilted to the required angle, turns it into a geared adjustable wedge.

Please bear in mind a couple of factors when trying to compare the unguided performance from different users.

1 The shorter the focal length of the lens, the longer the unguided exposure you can take before star trailing becomes apparent

2 The further the target is away from the celestial pole, the greater it's rate of drift across the camera chip. Thus you may be able to get a good unguided exposure of a target in x minutes near the pole, but get unacceptable trailing in x/2 minutes for a target near the celestial equator.

[Rico]

I too have both an AT and an HEQ5 pro. The set up time on my astrotrac is around 15 minutes, if not less. For the HEQ5 (with just a camera on it) its more like 45 minutes. The AT is a far more portable set up.

I mount the AT on one of Celestron's £90 Alt-Az mounts. This has a fully geared head that, if tilted to the required angle, turns it into a geared adjustable wedge.

Please bear in mind a couple of factors when trying to compare the unguided performance from different users.

1 The shorter the focal length of the lens, the longer the unguided exposure you can take before star trailing becomes apparent

2 The further the target is away from the celestial pole, the greater it's rate of drift across the camera chip. Thus you may be able to get a good unguided exposure of a target in x minutes near the pole, but get unacceptable trailing in x/2 minutes for a target near the celestial equator.

Having the luxury of setting up so quickly, seems to be a huge bonus of the AstroTrac. I guess I need to decide whether I'm after the ease and portability of the AstroTrac or versatility of the HEQ5 setup, in terms of potential telescope additions. I wish I could test both for a while. 

I've heard comments that the AstroTrac struggles with anything above 500mm ... do they mean that if you reduce your field of view any further you're then too prone to trailing, or is it that the 600mm Canon L lens is almost double its weight, and so the payload becomes an issue?

Thanks