To ortho or not - that's the question

[AlexB67]

Hello,

before moving onto  bigger and better things, ( a pentax 7mm and Delos 14mm are in the pipeline ) I now have a nice  collection of eyepieces I am happy with for the foreseeable future. Most of them cost me around the 40 - 60 pounds mark, and even in the f4.7 Dob nothing  feels like it needs upgrading tomorrow.  With the exception of the MV 28mm which was a present and the pentax 10.5 XL that cost me about twice the price of a BST,  money well spent without regret. 

There is one bugbear in my case however in the 66 degrees 6mm UWA, it has served me well for an eyepiece under the 30 pounds, but having gathered more experience, realising some of it shortcomings, the time has come where I am looking for a replacement. Something that will not break the bank too much, since I'll be getting the pentax 7mm anyway in due course.  That said,  I would still like to have a 200x mag eyepiece.

Use for the 6mm would be as a planetary/lunar eyepiece and splitting some doubles, mainly for use in the 10 inch f4.7 Dob, but also in the 130p on occasion.

I was very close to pulling the trigger on a astro hutech 6mm on the basis it has been deemed a decent successor to the GSO  , but as always, when you get close to buying I ask questions, do some more reading and so on and the cycle repeats .  I was pretty close to convinced by various reviews, in particular the excellent review by William Paolini and felt a decent orthoscopic would be a good addition

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1935

BUT

since last night, reading numerous reviews the Vixen NLV 6mm has made a late  ( but serious ) entry in my consideration. The vixen would be somewhat more costly, but it does have that lovely 20m eyerelief.  I observe with and without glasses, but more an more, lately I tend to remove my specs, for high power especially.

I have not forgotten about the 6mm Radian, and eyepiece with some different strengths in this category, but they turn up so rarely, and as far as I can tell so far,  apart from the FOV difference and build quality, the 6mm NLV is right up there as a good alternative.    I am aware of the small FOV restriction and fine to go with that. Using my 8mm BST I rarely use more than half of the FOV anyway when planetary viewing, since I notice it retains details somewhat better,  so I do the nudge nudge quite often

Q1: Can I live with the very tight eye relief of an ortho, remains to be seen, perhaps I will be thought a lesson or perhaps I should really try before I buy if possible.  

Q2: . In various reviews I do get some conflicting messages regarding off axis performance  of the orthos.  I suspect nothing too much can go wrong in a FOV this small, probably it is not worth worrying about, or is it ?. Some sources say wen it comes to outright edge to edge performance in faster scopes that the nlv is better compared to the well reviewed orthos in the sort of GSO class, though I have heard it to other way round too. It doesn't help when the scope in consideration is not even stated and how well these things were tested, I am unclear  on this.  Arguably the ortho will perhaps just edge it with a slightly brighter image and a tad more contrast for outright detail on axis, but even in that category  the vixen seems to deliver very well.  

My own thoughts:

Even if the ortho is that tad bit better on axis, when I get an eyepiece with a FOV as small as this, I want to overall FOV performance to be close to excellent for most of it. The greater eyerelief of the vixen will easily and comfortably allow me to use all the 45 degrees it offers with and without specs, The ortho on the other hand will be more of a challenge  of longer periods to see the entire 42 degrees, even without specs I suspect. Even if  I do compromise a little bit on pure optical brilliance on axis, it's a compromise that may be well worth having when it comes to actual observing.

Q3. Any news on the Vixen SLV models coming to Europe ? , seems the improved build with the newly designed all metal twist eyecup, plus the now 50 degrees in the 6mm model seems an attractive upgrade, seeing the plastic design of the NLV has been somewhat criticised.

Final question: What would go for and why ? Users with experience of both these eyepieces having compared them would be great in a scope of similar focal ratio such as mine, but throw in whatever you fancy as a new 6mm in this sort of price range.  I think it would need quite a bit of convincing to derail me from picking something entirely different though, by all means try, I am always open to listening to all points of views. Extreme wide angles need not apply though

Many thanks in advance, sorry for all the questions 

[John]

I like to have a good ortho or two in my eyepiece case for when I want the max contrast, light throughput and light scatter control and for when I'm happy to make a few comfort concessions to obtain those benefits. Quite often I'm not in the mood though so having something with a wider field and more eye relief is also very nice.

If I wore glasses to observe the orthos would not be an option though.

Having compared them, I'd be happy with any of the Baader GO, Astro Hutech or Fujiyamas. The Baader CO is very nearly as good too. 

Off axis aberrations don't seem a major issue with orthos even in fastish scopes as you don't get to see much off axis anyway ! 

FWIW (about £400 !) there is not a whole lot of difference between the 6mm Ethos and one of the above 6mm orthos in terms of view quality so much of the time I'm happy to drink in the additional 60 degrees of FoV     

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I used to have a 5mm ortho, and hated the small eye relief, and likewise for the 10mm Plossl I had. The Vixen LV7 and LV9 which I got much later were a breath of fresh air, compared to the short orthos and Plossls. The only ortho I really liked was the 25mm I unfortunately sold with my previous scope (0.965", hence the sale). The NLV is supposed to be a bit better than the older LVs (better coatings), and the LVs were a close match for the Radians I had. If you can live with the 45-50 deg FOV, you should seriously consider the NLV6. And then there is the Delos 6. You know you want one

[AlexB67]

Trying to bankrupt me ? 6mm Delos, 7mm XW mm, a nice mix. I know, that would have to wait, but it could be worth the wait  The 6mm feels somewhat more urgent to anything I own, perhaps I am too desparate looking for a temporary solution, but at the same time find a good optical step on my current 6mm and it is clouding my view. Rush buy is no buy some will say.

That said, I think that nudging business I can live with, especially now I have comfy seat.  The scope could do with some modding in alt movement to smoothen it a bit. Strangely, contrary to regular reports with my scope,  I am very happy in azimuth, but in alt it has a habit ( not always ) of finding little pockets, or valleys if you like where the scope likes to settle, a little annoying when that happens.  Very critical to get the right balance in the tension adjustment, but once you do I have moments where it is almost smooth enough to manually track with. Not that I would, but very easy to reposition with small nudges when it is in the sweet spot.

[AlexB67]

Just to give an update regarding the new Vixen SLV series. FLO suspect they will become available this month ( not 100% certain though )

Gives me a littie time to ponder, Who knows maybe be I'll be the first buyer.  The more time goes buy, the closer that 6mm Delos is in reach. I would not be surprised if the new SLVs will be another 20 - 30 pounds more anyway over the NLV, but that's just me guessing.

[AlexB67]

I can now tell you how this adventure turned out. As luck would have it, and good things come to those who wait, I did not buy an orthoscopic, I did not buy a vixen NLV.  It is GREEN, it is BLACK , It is shiny  . I managed to get my hands on a 6mm Televue Radian. Hope I did not jinx it by posting but the sale is agreed and I just paid for it.
 
My first ever TV eyepiece, suffice it to say I am very excited
 
     
 
Alex does some dances around room  ( something you will not want to see )
 
Is it finally time to change that avatar of mine ?

[John]

Congratulations Alex

The Radian was one of the last TV designs that I got to use and my 1st one came last year in the 4mm focal length. I now also have the 3mm and I like them both very much. I think you will enjoy the 6mm. See what you think of not only the optical quality but the whole build quality compared with other eyepieces. I suspect you will be impressed 

[Mark at Beaufort]

Alex I hope the Radian meets all your needs I am sure you will love it. Trouble is you will want other Televue EPs in the future.

To be honest I have never owned an Orthoscopic EP mainly because the tight eye relief put me off. My main EPs are Televue Ethos. Anyway a few weeks ago I was given the opportunity to test the Hutech Orthoscopic EPs in 6mm, 9mm and 18mm.

Last night viewing through a f5 Newt at really tight doubles 1.7 arcseconds the 6mm Hutech gave me edge to edge pin point sharpness. I have been so pleased the quality and contrast of these EPs that I might buy some for extra magnification.

So Alex if you ever decide to buy more EPs the Orthoscopic is one to consider but if you wear glasses don't buy one.

[AlexB67]

Thanks Mark/John. I was aware that the radian will have its own strengths and a bit of a different beast to an ortho, but it was always my dream sort of 6mm ideal choice to buy on a budget, but they are hard to come by these days in that focal length.

My fear with an ortho, as you say, it is kind of specialist and not the kind of thing I'd probably want to use often on a regular basis.  I therefore did have doubts, hence my long first post on the topic.   I do think that it is likely that an ortho will enter my case at some point, that it is more a question of when :0) 

I believe, without having used either, the radian will be a better all-rounder for regular use for me. If my favourite golden oldie pentax 10.5mm is anything to go by, what I learned from that, I have no doubt I am going to love  the radian also. Buying the pentax was the first high quality eyepiece I bought that performs really well in my scope, but it was also an eye opener that opened the door for me to say myself where to put my money in future. 

It is one thing to be told, as the John's and Alan Potts' keep reminding me, but I can be stubborn   It is lot of money to spend when you don't hav much to start with, but it is another experiencing these things, looking through them, gaining experience  and deciding on what direction is best for me.   

Of course now that I have a 6mm radian,  that still means the 7mm will be a pentax XW, that purchase was never in doubt. :0) 

No doubt in a year say, John will perhaps have managed to convince me that swimming in the view of a 100 degrees ethos  is also a good idea, who knows

[alan potts]

I was sorry I ever sold my 6mm, it really gets you when you don't need to but just feel it's not getting enough use, so you sell it. I bet I am not on my own there. I always fancied the 18mm as a planetary eyepiece for the LX, it would have been great on Jupiter, never seen one S/H and all the new ones have gone.

Alan

[AlexB67]

Alan, selling eyepieces I think is something I am unlikely to ever do. I am a hoarder. The 6mm UWA I will keep. it will serve as a useful comparison also, It will be interesting to see how two identical focal length eyepieces perform.

Also, If there others that would want to use my scope at a party, or visitors the SW UWA may actually be handy. it is very easy on the eye placement too and has a bit more FOV.  I don't have the Radian yet, but I suspect like my pentax that potentially newcomers may struggle with it on eye placement perhaps, and besides,  I am not sure I want pretty girls to deposit their mascara on my Radian.   

[RT65CB-SWL]

I can now tell you how this adventure turned out. As luck would have it, and good things come to those who wait, I did not buy an orthoscopic, I did not buy a vixen NLV.  It is GREEN, it is BLACK , It is shiny  . I managed to get my hands on a 6mm Televue Radian. Hope I did not jinx it by posting but the sale is agreed and I just paid for it.  My first ever TV eyepiece, suffice it to say I am very excited       Alex does some dances around room  ( something you will not want to see ) Is it finally time to change that avatar of mine ?

i

My TV 6mm Radian is my favourite...

...and most of my e/p's are TV anyway!

[alan potts]

Alex,

The Radian come with an eye placement aid which is like a large Polo, though not all S/H ones would have been kept by the owners. If you need one I can pop one in the post I have 2-3.

Alan

[Stu]

The Radians are very nice, sharp eps with comfy eye relief. I find them easy to use and with the eye guard raised the eye positioning is quite simple.

Enjoy

Stu

[Stu]

Alex,

The Radian come with an eye placement aid which is like a large Polo, though not all S/H ones would have been kept by the owners. If you need one I can pop one in the post I have 2-3.

Alan

Those are quite handy. They also cut down on reflections in the exit lens. I have used them at times on my T4's

Stu

[John]

Alan, selling eyepieces I think is something I am unlikely to ever do. I am a hoarder. The 6mm UWA I will keep. it will serve as a useful comparison also, It will be interesting to see how two identical focal length eyepieces perform.

Also, If there others that would want to use my scope at a party, or visitors the SW UWA may actually be handy. it is very easy on the eye placement too and has a bit more FOV.  I don't have the Radian yet, but I suspect like my pentax that potentially newcomers may struggle with it on eye placement perhaps, and besides,  I am not sure I want pretty girls to deposit their mascara on my Radian.   

The SW UWA's, though a little mis-named, are one line of low cost eyepieces that I rather enjoyed owning. The 9mm is considered a little gem and the others are not bad at all, especially if your scope is F/7 or slower. 

[Mr Spock]

I use both a Radian and an NLV at 10mm. There's not much between them in use - six of one, half a dozen of the other

[alan potts]

A little off the subject but I believe my 12mm T4 came with one of them Stu.

Alan

[AlexB67]

John, that 6mm has surprised me over time, but the time for the upgrade was ready, it lasted a good 9 months now since my first upgrade in the same focal length to say to myself I had outgrown it.   I needed something better. That said, I have many font memories of the SW 6mm. You don't need to break the bank to get some stunning views of globulars like M13 in a 10 inch Dob. I've had some amazing sights with this eyepiece.

That bit of extra experience helps too. It was not that long ago I gave the 10mm super plossl a good go that came with the 10 inch Dob, I realised I was getting that much more out of my views compared when I started, enough to say they are not really as bad as sometimes perhaps they are made out to be by beginners that want an upgrade as soon as possible. IMHO, it takes quite a bit of time and practice to outgrow even modest eyepieces sometimes I feel. That said, seeing BSTs are so cheap, and if you wear glasses in particular, for that money, if you have it handy and it doesn't cause much of a financial stress, they are well worth it and you may as well. IN my case, even the 10mm and especially the 25mm MA lasted me a good few months before I upgraded the latter when I had the 5 inch Dob only.

Spock, your nice report had not been missed during my searches in looking at various eyepieces, very useful.

[Joves]

I was sorry I ever sold my 6mm, it really gets you when you don't need to but just feel it's not getting enough use, so you sell it. I bet I am not on my own there. I always fancied the 18mm as a planetary eyepiece for the LX, it would have been great on Jupiter, never seen one S/H and all the new ones have gone.Alan

Alan,

They do come up. I just purchased recently two of the 18mm and they are very nice, particularly in the Bino Vue. There have since been two more go on Astromart, so they're definitely out there.

I'm hoping for a 12mm to become available... I stupidly passed up on two of them only a week ago, so am hoping another comes about soon enough, which will complete the Radian lineup for me.

[Joves]

Alex,The Radian come with an eye placement aid which is like a large Polo, though not all S/H ones would have been kept by the owners. If you need one I can pop one in the post I have 2-3.Alan

Ahhhhh, is THAT what those things are for?!!!

Cheers for that!

[Joves]

Alex I hope the Radian meets all your needs I am sure you will love it. Trouble is you will want other Televue EPs in the future.

I can quite comfortably vouch for this statement!

[alan potts]

Joves, a very true ststemant and I guess you only had one once. When you get your 12mm Radian which I have never seen advertised, I think it was one of the first dropped, are you going to start collecting Naglers?

Alan.

[Joves]

The Naglers are indeed appealing Alan, but it would seem I've taken to collecting TV's larger lenses.

(I'm sure my wife will have disposed of me before completing the Nagler set )

[AlexB67]

My package  arrived today with the golden oldie, I'll now present my reasonably priced case too while I had the camera handy 

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/57027-show-me-your-eye-piece-cases/?p=2208656

Thanks Alan, I'll see how I manage without a pupil guide to start with, it didn't come with one. I think it will be fine to be honest for my own use an the missus, just a matter of getting use to and finding the sweet spot. I had a little fight with the old pentax XL on the first night too, but it was fine after some adjusting and I got used to it.