Explore Scientific 82 Degree vs TeleVue Nagler at F/5

[Naemeth]

Okay, so I'm considering the Explore Scientific 82 Degree eyepieces, my question is:

At F/5, is there anything separating them (Explore Scientific 82 Degree and Naglers)?

[8kids]

Price!

[John]

How many people have had the luxury of comparing both, back to back, over a number of the focal lengths in the ranges I wonder ?

Damo has done this with the Nagler 31mm and the ES 30mm 82 and has just sold the Nagler as, I believe, he saw little or no difference in his 12" F/5 dobsonian.

Whether it is the same with the other focal lengths in these two ranges I don't know. There probably isn't a lot in it from the reports on other forums.

I've compared Skywatcher Nirvana's / William Optics UWAN's to Naglers and found them very close in performance terms, even with quite fast scopes.

[alan potts]

Look I am rather assuming the Meade UWA 5000 series is as near as makes no difference to the ExSc 82 range, I have used the 4.7, owned the 6.7mm and 8.8, and I have the 14mm, 24mm 30mm. In my opinion the Televuees will be better, but it's not by a great deal. It will always be the edges that are softer than the Naglers but it is only the last 3-4% of the FOV. Nagler are the best 82 degree on the market as far as I am concerned. However some time ago the Sky at Night magazine rated the Meade 8.8mm better than than the 7mm Nagler, I am sure "Value for money" was a prime consideration.

To go back to your question at F5 I am sure that if you compare like for like there will be a difference but nowhere near as bad as it will be at F4, below F5 things tend to head south fast.

Hope this helps

Alan

[Astro_Baby]

I have looked through both. The nagler is probably very slightly better even at f5 but look at the price. It all depends on whether you want to own something thats perhaps a tiny bit better but comes at a very hefty price penalty.

I have the ES30 and use it on an f5......its fine, sharp to the edge but oerhaps not quite as contrasty as the Nagler. For myself I couldnt justify the cost of a Nagler considering last year I got to observe probably fewer than 10 times thanks to weather and work.

The TV stuff might well perform better below f5 bit you would need to consider whether you want to pay a hefty price premium for views in a telescope with a focal ratio that you might never own.

[Moonshane]

I've only had one Nagler (a 26mm T5 which I hope never to part with) and never looked through an ES of any kind. I suspect the differences at this sort of quality are minimal but visible although in truth I am guessing. Personally I took the leap of faith that TV are just superb (I owned a few others at the time and still do - and they are) and knew that a 26mm Nagler would be a lifetime eyepiece purchase. I'd sell a scope before I'd sell the 26mm Nagler, in fact I'd sell my 13mm Ethos before it. Furthermore two of my scopes were less than the 26mm Nagler!

At f4 I was surprised how good the view was before putting in the Paracorr but when I did......wow.

Horses for courses. As with most astro gear it's a case of decide how much you want to spend and then buy the best you can for your budget - well, that's what I do anyway.

Not sure this is a helpful post but it's my thoughts on the subject anyway.

[Damo636]

There's a quote somewhere on here or possibly Cloudy Nights where someone has described the ES 82° as a premium eyepiece at a budget price! In my experience thats a pretty fair evaluation. As John has mentioned, I have compared the 31 Nagler & the ES 30 and found next to nothing between them at f5. If the rest of the range follows suit, & I believe they do, they offer a hell of a lot of bang for buck!

[alan potts]

There's a quote somewhere on here or possibly Cloudy Nights where someone has described the ES 82° as a premium eyepiece at a budget price! In my experience thats a pretty fair evaluation. As John has mentioned, I have compared the 31 Nagler & the ES 30 and found next to nothing between them at f5. If the rest of the range follows suit, & I believe they do, they offer a hell of a lot of bang for buck!

Damo,

Sorry for going off track on this post, Damo did you write a review on the Ex Sc 'V' 31mm Nagler, if so could you link me to it.

Alan.

[Damo636]

Here is the link to the thread Alan....

I can't edit the post now but I see reading back through it I have stated something that is completely wrong! I stated that the Explore Scientific ep had a flatter field, but I have since found out that a flat field has nothing at all to do with pincussion distortion, doh!!

The Nagler, now that I know what it means, has a very flat field.

[johnnyha]

Personally, I hope more and more people buy the ES eyepieces because the TVs are, simply, WAYYYYYYY overpriced. I believe with enough of this competition Mr. Nagler will HAVE to lower his prices back to reasonable levels. The Naglers may or may not be just very slightly better than the ES 82s, but the labor/cost of materials goes nowhere near explaining the HUGE price difference.

[Dunkster]

Apologies to OP for being off topic...

I think the ES / TV situation could end up being more analogous to the prestige car market... incumbent german marques dominating the higher-priced sales, peppy process-driven mass manufacturer jumps on the apple cart to upset it by pitching their equally finely engineered (but soul-less) models at a slight undercut to appeal to the badge snobs. Roll forward 20 years and the qualities are essentially the same, give or take... the apple cart never really got upset (although a few apples may have been bruised along the way), Lexus still makes soul-less but finely engineered cars, and Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi have also increased their sales fairly dramatically over the time period... well over a million buyers each last year, essentially by applying techniques from the mass manufacturer to make themselves more competitive. But it hasn't resulted in any of them lowering their prices

Similarly, while ES (for example, there are others!) offers some products in similar market segments, the demographics of the buyers means that some will inevitably buy the TV by default, and some the ES (if only they were more readily available in the UK...). As awareness and experiences of the 68, 82, 100 degree EPs increases, the number people in the market for a 68, 82 or 100 degree EP inevitably increases, and sales of all will likely increase

[crazyjedi]

I'm confused...so is the best 82 degree EP for an f5 scope a bruised apple or a BMW?

[Moonshane]

Personally, I hope more and more people buy the ES eyepieces because the TVs are, simply, WAYYYYYYY overpriced. I believe with enough of this competition Mr. Nagler will HAVE to lower his prices back to reasonable levels. The Naglers may or may not be just very slightly better than the ES 82s, but the labor/cost of materials goes nowhere near explaining the HUGE price difference.

I completely disagree with this on a number of levels. in the end it's down to personal preference. someone buying Leica bins for say £1000 gets performance slightly better than someone who buys a pair for £100. there will always be people that buy Leica bins and people that will never buy Leica bins.

the cost of top quality opticians is unlikely to be cheap. spending another few hours per eyepiece, plus the costs of individual quality control and possibly different materials at TV IS likely to account for the difference.

a general principle of business is not to reduce prices. cutting margins is the first step to failure. with good margins you can lose a fair percentage of customers before it becomes critical. with smaller margins, every single customer is critical to achieving break even point so I doubt TV will reduce prices dramatically. I suspect most would be surprised how relatively small a business TV is so their overheads are relatively small too I expect. don't forget that it is TV that generally invent the types of eyepieces that we are talking about.

brand loyalty is I think still quite strong but this may of course change as you say. personally, I doubt it.

[Mark in Macc]

Seagull or trawler?

[crazyjedi]

Ahem sorry about that. . Personally I would love Naglers but can only afford ES . Shame.

[Naemeth]

I certainly didn't want to start an attack on TV's pricing. I just want to know if I'll be able to tell the difference at the edge between a Nagler and ES82 at F/5.

[Dunkster]

Not if you only get one of them

[Naemeth]

Not if you only get one of them

To me, if I'd actually be getting a worse performance (if only slightly), I'd feel annoyed that I'd spent near top cash for what isn't the highest quality it can be. Whilst my Vixen LV is a brilliant eyepiece, and I'll use it for a long time (it's very nice and sharp), I wouldn't have been so happy had I paid £140 for it. Plus, assuming I'm in this hobby for life (pretty likely ), I'll have 60 or so years, and over that period of time, the cost of a Nagler doesn't seem too bad.

[crazyjedi]

Dunkster speaks a lot of sense. If you can afford to budget for Naglers then buy them. They are the best 82 degree EPs for edge of field performance. If ES EPs are a more realistic price for you (like in my case) then you won't be disappointed with them. When you start comparing top end EPs the differences become more and more slight.

As Dunkster say, you are unlikely to have the two lenses at the same time so the small differences will seem insignificant. Especially when you remember the £100 you gave saved towards your next ep by buying the ES.

[Naemeth]

Dunkster speaks a lot of sense. If you can afford to budget for Naglers then buy them. They are the best 82 degree EPs for edge of field performance. If ES EPs are a more realistic price for you (like in my case) then you won't be disappointed with them. When you start comparing top end EPs the differences become more and more slight.

As Dunkster say, you are unlikely to have the two lenses at the same time so the small differences will seem insignificant. Especially when you remember the £100 you gave saved towards your next ep by buying the ES.

It's tricky, but I know neither will be in my budget soon. I just know I'd wonder "what if?" if I got the ES.

I think I know my answer,

Thanks for the help everyone .

[Moonshane]

I agree with the long term purchase approach. each time I use my gear it costs less per use. eventually costs are irrelevant. some experienced observers have used both and retained the ES so they must be very very good.

Looking at your kit, if I am being honest, I'd be looking to buy a bigger scope before more eyepieces but that's just me, a saddo aperture junkie

I don't mean any offense at all by the way as your scope is perfectly capable.

[Astro_Baby]

Well if you look at it in those terms you should buy an AP scope or at least a TAk

If you want the flat out best buy the Nag....there was a secondhand one on ABS last week for £360 but thats still over 2x the price of an ES30 brand new.

As ever you pays the money and takes your choice. Bear in mind even a Nag migh not be a top EP for very long with the new ES 25mm 100' about to launch.

Nothig is ever the tops for 60 years.

[Naemeth]

I agree with the long term purchase approach. each time I use my gear it costs less per use. eventually costs are irrelevant. some experienced observers have used both and retained the ES so they must be very very good.

Looking at your kit, if I am being honest, I'd be looking to buy a bigger scope before more eyepieces but that's just me, a saddo aperture junkie

I don't mean any offense at all by the way as your scope is perfectly capable.

Oh yeah, I tend to plan in advance....long in advance .

Not really thinking about imaging yet...

[Dunkster]

Looks like every one can type faster than me, but.... If you have doubts or think it'd bother you, you know what to do... pony up for Uncle Al

The ES82s get good reports from scopers "over there", and at the sale price they're 1/3 the price of a new Nagler. You might be best keeping an eye on the used market though... Naglers come up every now and again but often sell quickly

[andrew63]

After using several of these 82 deg eyepiece not ES i must stress but naglers meades and celestron in my opinion regardless of F number - there are several designs now out there such as pentax or delos which have much better edge correction for aberrations sharpness throughput etc. And if edge of field sharpness was my top priority i would not be looking at these 82deg types.

andrew