A Dob That Won't Give Me a Hernia

[LukeTheNuke]

Hi, Folks!

My wife and I should be in the market soon for a new or used dob, max budget £5K, though if something suits us that's closer to £1K, great! I'm looking for something I can move around reasonably easily, not too much more over 20kg for the tube, and similar for the base. I have an old knee injury I need to be a little wary of, and I don't want to do my back in either hauling out the gear! We don't mind whether it's manual or goto, with a slight preference for manual.

We used to have a Skywatcher 400P Goto, which we loved, but I did find it a bit heavy to shift around on my own, and I don't want to injure myself! We currently use a 10 inch GSO solid tube, which is very easy to move around, and I'm up for something bigger and heavier. I'd prefer a solid tube. We used to have a 12 inch Skywatcher solid tube many years ago, and I wish they still made those! It was not that heavy, and the optics seemed better to me than our GSO.

We were thinking about a 14 inch Orion Optics UK dob, but these cost a fair bit new. Should I expect better optics than Skywatcher? I was happy with the Skywatcher optics, but if splashing out a lot more on another brand, I would hope to see a difference at the eyepiece.

Because of our fondness for the old SW 12 inch solid tube, the new Celestron StarSense 12 inch has caught our eye, but we know practically nothing about it. Are these being well received?

Or is it worth considering a 16 or 18 inch dob open design after all, with some DIY to make things easier, such as wheelbarrow handles? If there's a way to make a 16 or 18 inch work within budget that can be stored indoors and taken out without giving me a hernia, then we might be willing to give up on the solid tube preference.

Why solid tube? Well we just found it a bit less hassle, less prone to dew. That was our experience anyway with the scopes we've had, and in some ways, the old SW 12 inch solid tube was my favourite dob, pound for pound. I kinda wish we'd never sold it. I preferred it to the 12 inch FlexTube.

Eyepiece-wise, we have Tele Vue 21mm Ethos and the rest are Delos mostly, and we have a Tele Vue Paracorr, which seems to tidy up the optics a bit on the GSO. So I think the eyepieces can cope with a fast scope? The GSO has served us well, but we'd like to feel like we are significantly upgrading it.

Thanks for reading and for any thoughts. If you need any more info about our needs, please fire away!

Edited March 31 by LukeTheNuke

[Stu]

Sounds like a nice problem to have  

Just a few thoughts…

The Orion Optics dobs are made from aluminium and so are a decent amount lighter than the others available.

The Skywatcher and GSO based optics seem to be of decent quality these days, so if going for OO I would likely try for 1/10th wave spec just for peace of mind and whatever edge there is over standard.

I believe the Celestron StarSense units are well recieved, and the StarSense itself is excellent for locating objects. The Stella Lyra scopes from our sponsor are also worth a look.

I assume your aims are for deep sky observing? Aperture obviously matters for this, so it is worth considering a larger model. Truss dobs are actually quite manageable if you assemble them at your observing location, or perhaps you could look into something like an Astro Tuff Truck which would make moving the scope around a lot easier and avoid any lifting. This would take a 16” or 18” truss dob I think.

https://www.astrotufftruk.com

https://www.astrotufftruk.com/productsandprices/dobtruklarge

There are various manufacturers of truss dobs which are worth thoroughly researching if going down that route.

Hope that’s of some use for starters.

[John]

To echo part of what @Stu says above, I had a 12 inch F/5.3 dob based on an Orion Optics tube and a custom made base which broadly followed the OO small footprint design.

The overall weight of that scope + mount was similar to a 10 inch chinese made dob.

I'd previously had a 12 inch Meade Lightbridge and found it too heavy for me so moving to the OO based dob meant that I could keep the aperture, get slightly better optics and be able to set the scope up and tear it down quite quickly and without feeling that I was risking an injury of some sort !

I did consider getting a 14 inch OO dob a couple of times but doing the maths made me realise that I would be back where I was with the Lightbridge 12 in terms of overall weight. So I stuck with the 12 inch for over a decade.

 

[PhilB61]

I can't help in your choice unfortunately as I've never looked through a reflector bigger than 6". However, from what I have read mainly through this and CN forums there is a limit to what benefits larger aperture brings in light polluted areas. Obviously I don't know your sky conditions but it sounds like your not planning to travel with this scope, so just something to consider or maybe temper your expectations. Obviously if you have already considered this and know what to expect, I apologise and ignore my comments.

[Piero]

If wheelbarrow handles are fitted, moving the telescope around is not tiring at all. I leave my 16" f4 assembled in the garage and wheel it out in a couple of minutes. Seriously, it takes me less time to observe with this telescope than my 4" refractor..

This photo was taken from my previous house. The telescope lived in the living room and was wheeled through that door and steps with ramps. From that door I wheeled it for about 20m (each way).

 

Your TV eyepieces with a coma corrector will work fine.

Edited April 1 by Piero

[LukeTheNuke]

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone! Much appreciated.

Stu, perhaps I should reconsider GSO. My 10 inch GSO dob might be over a decade old. I see Mr Spock was chuffed with the optics on his StellaLyra 12". Thanks for the link to the Astro Tuff Truck. I see they have a 16 inch Skywatcher shown! The dob would mainly be for deep sky.

John, that's interesting to think about the 12 inch Orion Optics as well, I hadn't really thought about that. I do like the light weight of my 10 inch GSO. I feel like 20 kg would be okay for me, based on Sarah making me shift 20 kg bags of slate chippings around for her garden project! I think our GSO tube's weight is about 12.2 kg. And it looks like the OO VX12 is 14 kg, the VX12L is 16 kg, and the VX14 is 20 kg. So I guess the VX12 or 12L looks like a compromise between what I currently find easy, and the 20 kg I feel I could handle but would feel heavy-ish to me (those slate bags never felt light!)

The Celestron 12 inch does have a useful-looking handle on the tube, though at 22.58 kg, I wonder if it might feel a touch heavy to me. Sarah tells me I'd be fine with it, thanks to the handle, but she won't be the one shifting it around! Still, I'm sure her encouragement will take 10 kg off the weight!

Phil, thanks for checking about the sky conditions. Our skies are kinda okay for DSO, and our old 16 inch definitely showed more generally than the 12 inch scopes. And it was a big step up on the 10 inch. I'd say our 16 inch at home felt a bit like using a 12 inch at a darker site, like Kelling. Our skies aren't very stable for planets, though. I've never had a view of Jupiter at home anywhere near as good as it was at Kelling one year.

Piero, you make a 16 inch scope look practical, LOL! I was thinking about some ramps, it's good to see, thanks, and to hear how well it works for you.

I hadn't really thought about where the scope would be stored! Sarah reminded me that we stored our 16 inch SW indoors in the cupboard under the stairs, which is now home to a bunch of board games! We have a shed in the garden where the 10 inch is stored. I think we'd get the OO UK 14 inch in the shed.

Edited April 1 by LukeTheNuke

[Ratlet]

If you buy a model that is not conductive to having barrow wheel/handle fitted myself and @bosun21 used a sack barrow with a fold out toe for moving our dobs (he put me on the idea).  Only mod needed is some slightly longer rubber feet so you can get the toe under the dob.

I find it very easy to setup when moving from the shed and a bungee cord stops the tube from moving around.

[Paz]

I have had a VX14 for 8 years or so. I agree with the comments to consider where and how you will store a dob and all the steps you will need to take to get it set up to observe.

A observatory is best 😉, next best is a fully set up scope on a wheelbarrow that you can roll out and start using straight away. Next best is a scope where you have a base and a fully set up ota (i.e finders  heaters, etc already fitted) that you can carry out, plonk one on the other, and start observing, etc. From there the more bits you have to put together and take apart each time the more time you spend setting up and taking down.

My scope is stored in a study downstairs so my set up process is....

1. (Optional) Carry out eq platform from garage.

1. Clear my other scope stuff out of the way which my Dob is stored behind. If I had space I would rearrange everything to eliminate this step.

2. Carry base out (I think about 20kg including a small motorbike battery that is tucked in the corner of it). It's never more than 20m to carry but the back garden entails awkward tight gaps and a flight of steps, hence wheelbarrows are not an option for me.

3. Carry out ota (well over 20kg including finders, heaters, and metal ota reinforcement and extension modifications). I have a strong strap looped through one of the mounting rings so that I don't have to bend over it to pick it up and put it down. Finders are pre aligned and heaters are preset, being a solid tube I can leave everything on the ota between sessions.

4. (Optional) Collimate

5. (Optional) Connect and switch on heaters and primary fan

6. (Optional) Insert Paracorr 2.

7. Insert eyepiece.

8. Observe.

I list the above to illustrate that depending on your circumstances you may end up with different steps affecting your set up time.

I imagine a common trade off is the one between storage convenience and setting up convenience.

If I could have a huge Dob sitting proudly in the middlenof my kitchen on a trolley ready to go at a moments notice, and get my garden levelled to make a trolley viable I would be much happier... and my other half would be much unhappier!

[Mr Spock]

Interestingly, despite having a slipped disc, I can move my 12" from the shed to the patio without too much difficulty.

[Mr H in Yorkshire]

My son has a 12" Skywatcher collapsible DOB - it is at the absolute limit of practicality in mobility terms, both weight and bulk. Without a permanent setup or obsy (as described by many above), because of it's challenges it seldom gets used which is sad because its performance is breath taking.

Edited April 1 by Mr H in Yorkshire

[Mr Spock]

The heaviest part is usually the base. Tubes are more bulky than heavy.

I did have a Flextube 250 which was easier to manoeuvre. The base had more handles than the StellaLyra (though you could fix that) and the tube can be picked up by the struts with one hand.

[bosun21]

Having owned both the 8" and 12" solid tube Stella Lyra (GSO) dobsonians, both of which were optically very good. I found that moving them around the garden, and even to and fro from the house to the garden was relatively easy using a sack barrow  @Ratlet has mentioned this fact in a previous post. I now have the 10" Flextube go to dobsonian which is also easily manoeuvred using the sack barrow despite the much heavier base. I never use the trusses to move the scope and this is clearly stated in literature. To me it's all about the bulk and not so much the weight that makes them problematic. This problem is taken care of with the addition of wheelbarrow handles or the use of a sack barrow.

[LukeTheNuke]

Thanks for the further ideas and thoughts!

Ratlet, thanks for a plan B re: scope on wheels!

Paz, thanks for taking the time to go through the setup routine. I suppose really I am looking for the sweet spot between the light weight and low hassle of my GSO 10 inch dob, and the bigger aperture of my old Skywatcher 16 inch. So maybe I should stick with a solid tube.

I love with the GSO that if the forecast is clear, I can plonk it out in seconds, there's very little to do to set it up, and if the night ends up as being wall-to-wall cloud, I didn't waste much time and it wasn't much of a chore.

Mr Spock, the base of your StellaLyra looks very similar to my GSO 10 inch dob's base. I really like it, and prefer it to the Skywatcher FlexTube bases. 

So I suppose I need to set my limit on the weight. I think as has been mentioned, it's not just the weight alone really, despite me going on about 20 kg bags of slate! I think it's also the shape and size, and how the weight is distributed.

I think we're edging towards the OOUK VX14, with it perhaps between that or the VX12 or VX12L. With the 12's, Sarah wonders if the VX12L might be more practical in terms of a more comfortable height of the eyepiece when standing generally.

I went out to measure our shed. It has a width of 100 cm, and the gap where the door goes is 166.5 cm tall (and there seems to be ample width). So I think we'd get the VX14 in there fine (tube length: 154 cm).

Edited April 1 by LukeTheNuke

[John]

Was your 16 inch the Flextube that used to come to the SGL star parties a few years ago ? 

I can recall looking through that one and thinking that the views were lovely but the scope certainly very far from "grab and go" 😁

 

[LukeTheNuke]

44 minutes ago, John said:

Was your 16 inch the Flextube that used to come to the SGL star parties a few years ago ? 

I can recall looking through that one and thinking that the views were lovely but the scope certainly very far from "grab and go" 😁

 

Yes, that was the one! We sold it because I was finding it too heavy, and feared for my knee or back! And I was getting into another hobby that softened the blow: board gaming. Mind you, some of those are getting pretty heavy these days!

[tomato]

There is a 16” Explore Scientific ultra light Dobsonian in the classifieds, it is a truss tube design but there aren’t many 16” dobs out there which are lighter and more compact. I have a 16” SW flextube but it is not the easiest scope to to move around.

[John]

1 hour ago, tomato said:

There is a 16” Explore Scientific ultra light Dobsonian in the classifieds, it is a truss tube design but there aren’t many 16” dobs out there which are lighter and more compact. I have a 16” SW flextube but it is not the easiest scope to to move around.

I'm not sure that the ES Ultra Light's are any lighter than the Skywatcher equivalents 🤔

It's worth checking.

[tomato]

Skywatcher make a light weight 18” and 20” Dobsonian but I think their 16” is only available as a flextube. All that chipboard and steel tube make it a substantial beast, 80kg, vs 40 kg for the 16” ES truss tube scope.

[LukeTheNuke]

Thanks for the ideas and thoughts! They have been very helpful, we had a big think over the Easter weekend, and did some other reading up here on SGL.

All things considered, Sarah and I think it makes sense to store the dob in our shed, which I think rules out using a trolley or wheelbarrow handles, alas. That's because the path to the shed is loose slate chippings. Also, the shed door opening has a lip at the bottom, and I think the shed may be too shallow for using a ramp (it's only 100 cm deep), and perhaps taking a trolley.

The door opening, after careful checking, is 74.5 cm wide (less than I thought!), and 169.5 cm tall (more than I thought, LOL!). The shed is about 140 cm wide, 100 cm deep. We'd like to store the dob base in the shed as well, which is where we currently store our 10" GSO dob and base. I don't think we'll be keeping the GSO if the new scope is practical enough to replace it, and there might not be space for both in the shed, as we also have a few other bits in the shed.

I tested the waters by mentioning the word "observatory" to Sarah, suggesting perhaps she could do the odd bit of crafting in there as well. I got rather a stern look back.

We think we want a solid tube. We just find them that bit less hassle. They are far less prone to dew than the FlexTubes in our experience.

OTA weight-wise, thinking about what I've used in the past and how much I appreciate the light weight of the GSO (about 12.5 kg, I think), how heavy I found the SW 400P (32 - 38 kg???), a max weight of about 22.5 kg sounds about right to me. I'm sure I could manage a bit more, but I like the idea of being a bit under what I think I am fine with, and bearing in mind that I'm not getting any younger, and we hope to keep this scope for many years...

I think the Celestron 12 StarSense and the StellaLyra 12 dobs are options, and have the plus that they're way under our budget, and the tubes are probably a bit less prone to denting than the OOUK dobs. With Celestron, I've been happy with the optics on their scopes. With the StellaLyra, the base looks like the one on my GSO, which I am fond of. It's not flashy or beefed up, but it works so well. It's very smooth.

It would be a nice plus if the scope could fit in a car so we could take it to star parties, though if not, we can always take our lovely Edge 8 SCT. This could sway us to the Orion Optics VX12 if that fits in the car (my car could be changing soon), and the XV12L or VX14 don't.

Apart from the star party aspect, the VX14 tempts the most for me at the mo because it might feel like a nice compromise between the convenience of the GSO 10 inch, and the aperture of our old SW 400P. The VX14 OTA is 20 kg, which is similar to the StellaLyra 12, and less than the Celestron 12. And 14 inches sounds a decent step up on 10 inches.

We're open to new or used, and see plusses both ways. We hope to have funds within the next three months - we're not able to buy anything just yet.

Edited April 2 by LukeTheNuke

[Zermelo]

3 hours ago, LukeTheNuke said:

I tested the waters by mentioning the word "observatory" to Sarah, suggesting perhaps she could do the odd bit of crafting in there as well.

Thanks, just added to my own strategy list

[LukeTheNuke]

Sarah and I are now wondering if two scopes might be better than one! What we're thinking for Option 2 is 12 inch solid tube dob to replace the GSO 10, as our low-hassle DSO scope. Maybe the StellaLyra or Celestron StarSense, so we can spend the bulk of the budget on the bigger scope.

And something 16 inches or larger that is very portable and can cover star parties or the odd night at home when we have the energy to set it up. Maybe it's the weekend and the forecast is clear. Out comes the big dob. Midweek, might be clear, might not - out comes the 12.

For example, the Explore Scientific Ultra Light Dobsonian 406mm looks reasonable weight-wise, with the heaviest single part being the mirror box, at 23.8 kg.

I guess I could, at a push, clear the games out of the cupboard where the 400P used to go, and the big dob could be stored there, hopefully. Maybe I'll have to sell some games [gasp!] We have games stored in several locations (we have many games!), so it's not end of the world to free up under the stairs, I think, especially if we sell some of Sarah's games!

It might be possible to stretch the budget above £5K for the right big dob, we have to see how the finances work out when we have the funds. Sarah has been looking at product pages for 18 and 20 inch dobs! A 20 inch dob would be a dream come true, though I want to avoid any really heavy single part, so maybe those mirrors are just going to be too heavy anyway. Or can the heaviest part easily be carried by two people? I've never moved a mirror box. If two of us can easily move it, then maybe we can push towards 20 inches?

 

Edited April 2 by LukeTheNuke

[Ratlet]

I'd question whether you will get much bang for your buck going from 10" to 12".  Why not look at quality of life improvements for the 10"?  Like an eq platform so it tracks targets or picking up a cheap starsense scope so you can scavenge the starsense off it for easy push to.

[Mr Spock]

Size matters... Here's how big a 12" is next to an 8" f4 and 4" f7.4.

[LukeTheNuke]

1 hour ago, Ratlet said:

I'd question whether you will get much bang for your buck going from 10" to 12".  Why not look at quality of life improvements for the 10"?  Like an eq platform so it tracks targets or picking up a cheap starsense scope so you can scavenge the starsense off it for easy push to.

Thanks for the thoughts. I can see why you'd say that, and it was part of my thinking in favouring the VX14 over the 12s, so that there's a more substantial increase in aperture. The answer is that I find the optics a bit lacking on the TS GSO 10 anyway, and would actually consider changing it for another 10 inch, if I felt confident the optics would be better. They're not terrible, but I think they are not as good as the (four?) Skywatcher dobs I've had. And the 10 is my most used scope for DSO, so a replacement is likely to get a lot of use.

I do really like its mechanics, though. I'm fond of the base. The scope has a surprisingly good two-speed focuser. We usually upgrade focusers - I think we did for all of our Skywatcher dobs. But we were happy with the stock one on the TS GSO 10. I was impressed that it could handle the weight of a Paracorr and 21mm Ethos. So the StellaLyra, if I am confident it has better optics than my old GSO (> 10 years?), looks quite tempting. It appears to have a very similar base, and I wonder if the focuser is also pretty decent.

I suppose a used VX14 could still work, though, if we go the two scope route, if the price gets closer to a new StellaLyra.

And part of my thinking is that having owned a lot of different aperture scopes, the 12 inch solid tube Skywatcher was a gem, and I wish I hadn't sold it. Now with the Celestron StarSense, and Mr Spock's glowing report of the StellaLyra, I wonder if there is the chance to correct my mistake.

Edited April 3 by LukeTheNuke

[LukeTheNuke]

3 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

Size matters... Here's how big a 12" is next to an 8" f4 and 4" f7.4.

 

Very true, Michael. I've been fortunate to own quite a range of sizes and scope styles: 60mm, 80mm, 100mm, 120mm, 150mm, 200mm, 250mm, 280mm, 300mm, 400mm. And we were very lucky to look through some bigger dobs at star parties. With the really big dobs, you also need stepladders! I was just okay without a ladder for the 400P, Sarah needed to use a few steps sometimes. I think Sarah might not need steps with the VX14, so that would be a plus versus the old 400P we sold.

I think I need to check what would actually fit under the stairs, to see what the limit there is. The door opening is roughly 75 cm wide, and 130 cm tall. We got the SW 400P in there fine. Whether it could take an 18 or 20 of some type, I don't know at the mo. Perhaps not. The big scope for our two scope option must go under the stairs. I think that's non-negotiable with Sarah! For the single scope option, we think the shed makes more sense - e.g. scope already pretty much cooled down.

If we go the two scope route, I guess the aperture needs to be at least 4 inches in difference to make it feel worth the effort. I'm not sure it would make that much sense to have a 14 solid tube and the Explore Scientific Ultra Light Dobsonian 406mm. I think there needs to be a bigger reason to get the bigger dob out to make the extra setup feel worth it. So perhaps a 12 and a 16, or a 14 and an 18 or 20. But definitely, I don't want a hernia from the scope(s)!

There is still the star party aspect, but I think the big scope does need to offer something at home too. We can't justify the cost of an expensive large dob for star parties only.

Edited April 3 by LukeTheNuke