Move away from ASIAIR? Where next....

[mistuk]

I currently have an ASIAIR which I find really easy to use, and very much like the "stand alone" nature - it also (in the main) just works.... However, Im wary about being tied into ZWO Products..... It's not that I don't like them - but I'm in the process of buying a dedicated astro camera and the ZWO offerings (particularly the 2600) is significantly more expensive than, say, the Altair version with this Sony chip.....

I have a ZWO AM5 mount which I've just purchased and am getting used to - but really like what I've seen so far - I don't have an EAF yet.

So if I was going to "jump ship" from the ASIAIR - what would I go to?

I don't have a laptop at the moment - and use a Mac desktop at home - I'm pretty computer literate....

Would it be a miniPC / NUC that I physically locate at the mount then use Remote Desktop to access using an iPad or my Mac - then use something like NINA?

What about something like Indigo and using IndigoSky on a Raspberry Pi physical located on the mount?

Or do I stick with the ASIAIR and spend extra on the camera....

[Stuart1971]

I would go with Stellarmate and the raspberry PI, and the Stellarmate app, which is basically the same as ASIair, but far cheaper and works with all cameras….

The ASIair uses the same indilib driver system as SM, in fact SM was around long before the ASIair…

[Gary Clayton]

I use a cheap Beelink mini pc with PHD2 and NINA with my Altair 26M and use the inbuilt  native camera driver, you do have to install Ascom any other drivers/software that you might need for other equipment but once done it's  a very reliable system that has fully automated my imaging sessions. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Gary Clayton

[Elp]

Whatever works for you really. I've used rpi and astroberry (really needs a computer to interface with it comfortably, doesn't work so well on a mobile phone screen via web browser), for me the UI is extremely good on the air and you don't need to think about having a computer or configuring all your equipment, drivers etc IT JUST WORKS out the box (when the firmware and app want to play ball). Stellarmate I'd assume fits in between the two. A mini PC with a good spec will be more powerful than all of them.

[mistuk]

22 minutes ago, Elp said:

Whatever works for you really. I've used rpi and astroberry (really needs a computer to interface with it comfortably, doesn't work so well on a mobile phone screen via web browser), for me the UI is extremely good on the air and you don't need to think about having a computer or configuring all your equipment, drivers etc IT JUST WORKS out the box (when the firmware and app want to play ball). Stellarmate I'd assume fits in between the two. A mini PC with a good spec will be more powerful than all of them.

It's the "IT JUST WORKS" bit I'm afraid of breaking! 🙂

[Elp]

I doubt it's difficult setting a PC equivalent up if you're accustomed to configuring PCs in general, once it's done that's usually it. But as implied the convenience of having the controller and software in your hand (ie phone) is difficult to beat, you'd have to weigh up whether the cost saving and setup time is worth it.

[powerlord]

Nothing is gonna 'just work' like the asiair - that's the important thing you need to bear in mind. So be prepared to compromise and spend a lot more time faffing around. I'm not saying don't do it. Just be aware of the trade off and be happy you can live with it. That is one of the main benefits of a closed system - mac vs windows/linux, package holiday vs roll yer own, nina vs asiair.

But the other major difference is the UX - mobile app vs one or multiple PC apps. There is no viable mobile app alternative to asiair, nor do I think there will ever be, as the venn diagram of asiair users and 'the others' don't seem to have much cross over in their valuation of mobile app/user friendliness as far as I can see, so efforts are either non existent or so basic and buggy as to be useless.

Lastly it might be worth mentioning if you want to shoot with multiple controller. I now regularly shoot with 4 asiairs on the same night, 4 different setups, 4 different mobile devices connected (not necessary though, I could just use one and swap between them). Though not impossible, I'd be impressed by anyone doing to same thing with a PC alternative.

However, If you do decide, I'd do it BEFORE you get a non asiair camera and get it all working and live with it for a while, then make the move - that way you know you'll be happy.

If you already have an asiair, no need for new HW - AND you can go back to asiair by just popping original sdcard back in. Just get a new sdcard, and have a look at stuff out there - you have options of running astroberry, stellarmate, openastro  on it, or you can think about something like VirtualHere, which exposes everything plugged into the pi to a PC in your house as usb - and you can then use nina or something on a PC in your home, BUT it will be connected to everything as if it was outside.

Joey Troy seems to be the guy hacking all this - so have a look at his site:

https://joeytroy.com/

As I say, the benefit is you can play with what you've got and see if it's a trade off you are prepared to make. I say trade off, because you have mentioned 'just works'. And though much of this other software is more powerful, more configurable and has more hardware support, it does not by any stretch of the imagination 'just work'

Personally, I decided (after trying most of them), that my time and sanity was more valuable to me that the couple of 100 quid I'd save buying non zwo gear. However, your mileage may vary as the saying goes - more power ta ya.

stu

 

[Adam-R]

I think jumping away from the convenience from an ASIair would boil down to the availability/price of the hardware, i.e. another brand is so much better that it makes the decision for you. 

I'm surprised that no-one has hacked the ASI and developed another app that could run other cameras? 

[StevieDvd]

11 minutes ago, Adam-R said:

I think jumping away from the convenience from an ASIair would boil down to the availability/price of the hardware, i.e. another brand is so much better that it makes the decision for you. 

I'm surprised that no-one has hacked the ASI and developed another app that could run other cameras? 

You can run Stellarmate or Astroberry in the ASIAir Pro just by using a different sdcard, that also allows use of the power ports as there is a driver for those in the underlying indilib.

[AstroMuni]

4 hours ago, mistuk said:

and use a Mac desktop at home - I'm pretty computer literate.

As you are more of a Mac user I would suggest going down the Stellarmate OS route. You have a few choices open to you...

- run Kstars & INDI on the Mac and connect devices directly to it

- run Kstars & INDI on an RPi and connect from the Mac/ipad via VNC or browser

- run INDI on RPi and connect from Mac running Kstars

- run INDI on RPi and connect via ipad using Stellarmate app

Take your pick 🙂

[mistuk]

1 hour ago, Adam-R said:

I think jumping away from the convenience from an ASIair would boil down to the availability/price of the hardware, i.e. another brand is so much better that it makes the decision for you. 

I'm surprised that no-one has hacked the ASI and developed another app that could run other cameras? 

I too am surprised that no one has found a way of doing this too!

[mistuk]

2 hours ago, powerlord said:

Nothing is gonna 'just work' like the asiair - that's the important thing you need to bear in mind. So be prepared to compromise and spend a lot more time faffing around. I'm not saying don't do it. Just be aware of the trade off and be happy you can live with it. That is one of the main benefits of a closed system - mac vs windows/linux, package holiday vs roll yer own, nina vs asiair.

But the other major difference is the UX - mobile app vs one or multiple PC apps. There is no viable mobile app alternative to asiair, nor do I think there will ever be, as the venn diagram of asiair users and 'the others' don't seem to have much cross over in their valuation of mobile app/user friendliness as far as I can see, so efforts are either non existent or so basic and buggy as to be useless.

Lastly it might be worth mentioning if you want to shoot with multiple controller. I now regularly shoot with 4 asiairs on the same night, 4 different setups, 4 different mobile devices connected (not necessary though, I could just use one and swap between them). Though not impossible, I'd be impressed by anyone doing to same thing with a PC alternative.

However, If you do decide, I'd do it BEFORE you get a non asiair camera and get it all working and live with it for a while, then make the move - that way you know you'll be happy.

If you already have an asiair, no need for new HW - AND you can go back to asiair by just popping original sdcard back in. Just get a new sdcard, and have a look at stuff out there - you have options of running astroberry, stellarmate, openastro  on it, or you can think about something like VirtualHere, which exposes everything plugged into the pi to a PC in your house as usb - and you can then use nina or something on a PC in your home, BUT it will be connected to everything as if it was outside.

Joey Troy seems to be the guy hacking all this - so have a look at his site:

https://joeytroy.com/

As I say, the benefit is you can play with what you've got and see if it's a trade off you are prepared to make. I say trade off, because you have mentioned 'just works'. And though much of this other software is more powerful, more configurable and has more hardware support, it does not by any stretch of the imagination 'just work'

Personally, I decided (after trying most of them), that my time and sanity was more valuable to me that the couple of 100 quid I'd save buying non zwo gear. However, your mileage may vary as the saying goes - more power ta ya.

stu

 

Wow! Loads of interesting stuff there. Thank you

[Elp]

6 hours ago, powerlord said:

4

And I thought I was mad when getting three going at once... (It does weigh on your mind when you have to setup and breakdown every time).

Edited October 26, 2023 by Elp

[mistuk]

Just now, Elp said:

And I thought I was mad when getting three going at once...

Not even trying by the sounds of it!

[Stuart1971]

3 hours ago, mistuk said:

I too am surprised that no one has found a way of doing this too!

They have, as I said Stellarmate and it’s App, it is better and runs all cameras, this is where the ASIair came from, they basically “borrowed” the open source software that the Stellarmate developer built, and used it for there own kit…so there is a very viable alternative…

[Elp]

The Stellarmate X does raise some curiousity, but it does cost more than an air though total outlay may balance out in the end. There is the option to purchase Stellarmate OS and run it off an rpi, and I think it can be run off a mini pc too (which the X effectively is).

Edited October 26, 2023 by Elp

[powerlord]

1 hour ago, Stuart1971 said:

They have, as I said Stellarmate and it’s App, it is better and runs all cameras, this is where the ASIair came from, they basically “borrowed” the open source software that the Stellarmate developer built, and used it for there own kit…so there is a very viable alternative…

Have you some references/citations for that stuart ? I mean, I know there i some fuss about zwo not honouring GPL, but that was stuff like ffdshow, etc. Since asiair is all based on indi stuff and the UI is entirely theirs, I'm curious as to what stellarmate open source stuff you are referring to is ? Of course, depending on the licence associated with. it, using open source in your product can be entirely inkeeping with the licence also.

I've not used stellarmate's mobile app - is it really usable and a complete alternative to vnc ? or it it just a fancy vnc interface ?

[Stuart1971]

1 hour ago, powerlord said:

Have you some references/citations for that stuart ? I mean, I know there i some fuss about zwo not honouring GPL, but that was stuff like ffdshow, etc. Since asiair is all based on indi stuff and the UI is entirely theirs, I'm curious as to what stellarmate open source stuff you are referring to is ? Of course, depending on the licence associated with. it, using open source in your product can be entirely inkeeping with the licence also.

I've not used stellarmate's mobile app - is it really usable and a complete alternative to vnc ? or it it just a fancy vnc interface ?

I have always been in close contact with Jasem the indi / Stellarmate developer and have had many convos on others using indilib, but it’s not for discussing here…
There mobile app is just a much better version of ASIair app, it’s nothing to do with VNC, it runs on an android or Apple tablet just like the ASIair does, it is a complete alternative and does not rely on any other software other than the indi drivers….

[Backyardscope]

Here's my 2p worth.

Stellarmate X on a Mele Mini PC or Stellarmate on a Raspberry Pi 4B 8GB.

INDI is cross platform and supports all hardware, not like ZWO which they have made proprietary only to their devices.

The INDI platform was very much there before ZWO came along.

All credit goes to Jasem Mutlaq (developer of StellarMate) and also a major contributor to the INDI Platform.

ASIAIR just rebranded and sold under a different guise, for people who do not know or can't  be bothered to program a raspberry pi.

You could easily either load Ubuntu, install the indi drivers and Kstars, phd2 or use the internal guider program and use an external wireless dongle to control your gear remotely.

Use Kstars windows version to link to your raspberry pi  and capture the Data on your pc, mac or mobile device.

Buy Stellarmate OS for $49 or for $80 StellarmateX, load it onto the raspberry pi or mini pc, voila! you have now a cheaper universal version of the ASAIR AIR PRO and you can hotspot onto it and use a tablet, smartphone to connect. Or connectly remotely via windows Kstars or use VNC.

FLO sell the Stellarmate X version which is just a Mele Mini PC Quiter 2 with the Stellamate X preloaded onto the system. 

The Quiter 3 has a more powerful CPU and has WiFi 6 available from amazon, something ro consider if your planning to get more of an advance camera in the future.

I currently have a Raspberry Pi 4B 8GB with Stellarmate OS with my Quattro 150P setup with an external 5Ghz Atenna and my Evolux 62ED setup up running a Quiter 3 with Stellarmate X on WiFi 6.

When I bought the Quiter 3 from amazon they were offering 3 months 0% interest on payments.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Backyardscope

[The Admiral]

Does Stellarmate have a polar align function, or more specifically, an all star polar align function for when the Polar regions are not visible?

Ian

[Backyardscope]

55 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

Does Stellarmate have a polar align function, or more specifically, an all star polar align function for when the Polar regions are not visible?

Ian

This may answer your question:

https://www.stellarmate.com/help/PAA.html#:~:text=If your mount supports Polar,Settings to modify the settings.

[powerlord]

11 hours ago, Stuart1971 said:

I have always been in close contact with Jasem the indi / Stellarmate developer and have had many convos on others using indilib, but it’s not for discussing here…
There mobile app is just a much better version of ASIair app, it’s nothing to do with VNC, it runs on an android or Apple tablet just like the ASIair does, it is a complete alternative and does not rely on any other software other than the indi drivers….

 Joey's kernel is required for the usb and power board to work on the asiair - is that correct ?

I'd quite like to try it and give it a work out you see, but don't really want to faff around with rebuilding kernels to get it working. And running it on a pi is no use to me, as I'd lose the 12v power connectors I need and would need to faff around with new pi case, bla bla.

I posted a message to joey on youtube saying it'd be great if he could make imgs available for openastro for the asiair pro. Similarly it'd be great if stellamate could do the same.

I'm assuming you also have an asiair and after evaluating them side by side have decided stellamate's mobile app is better ? I've not seen any in depth reviews comparing them both ? All I find are ones reviewing stellarmates web interface. e.g:

https://webofoptics.com/stellarmate-vs-asiair/

I do think stellarmate shoots itself in the foot as a software offering not offering and evaluation option - and it's what has always put me off trying it frankly. It's money down the pan if I don't like it. And for me anyway, I'd only be interested if if works on my asiair pro - since that's what I have already HW wise, and all the cabling, mounting, etc that goes with it.

i.e. Im not paying $50 to run it on a pi4 as I know that's not a viable real option for me without also then getting 12v distribution boards, etc, etc - so not work paying.

However saying it doesn't rely on any other software is not accurate I think ? It is in it's own way just a package of other things - ekos/kstars, astronomy.net, etc.

https://www.stellarmate.com/

And this website states:

StellarMate is a verstile OS that supports multiple methods to control it.

1. The first and primary supported method to control StellarMate remotely is via the Ekos 64bit desktop application on Mac/Linux/Windows.
2. The secondary supported method is to treat StellarMate as a mini-PC and access it over VNC or directly via HDMI/Keyboard/Mouse. You can use Ekos directly on StellarMate and it supports all the features just like the 64bit version.
3. The final and third method is via the StellarMate Mobile App. The app is still in development and does not cover many features in the desktop application

Everytime these asiair vs others comparisons come along, some folk get hostile on the anti-asiair side. I just don't understand that as a tech guy, and an experienced IT guy - they are different. To say one is better than the other is total nonsense - you might as well argue windows is better than linux, a ferrari is better than a tesla, a horse is better than a dog. I don't think statements like @Backyardscope "asair is just a rebranded..." help new users at all either - they are again, false.

I would never say asiair is better than stellarmate. Any more than I'd say stellarmate is better than astroberry. It needs honest evaluation of the features that are important to you as a user - and that requires information out there to be accurate and without bias.

If Joey can persuade me I can get stellarmate working on my asiair, I may buy it and try my best to do an evaluation which is accurate and unbiased , as well as a review of how it compares for my use. I have alread done those evaluations privately for other software - astroberry, PC - kstar/ekos/phd2, NINA. I found each of these powerful, but complex, buggy, unreliable, unscalable, and messy to use (x86, remote required, not mobile, etc) FOR ME. Since I valuable plug and play and mobile control, and total reliability more than anything else - and asiair does that for me 100%. However, I'm a geek - I like trying new things - I have no chips on my shoulder or skin in the game --I've just bought a dwarfii to try along with the S50 I have, etc -- So I am genuinely interested if Stellarmate are one the way to achieving the same level of black box bit of HW don't worry about what runs under the lid 'just works' asiair. Having an asiair I can 'flip' to being stellarmate and therefore open the door to non ZWO camera would be useful Im sure for certain stuff.

atb

stu

[powerlord]

2 minutes ago, Backyardscope said:

This may answer your question:

https://www.stellarmate.com/help/PAA.html#:~:text=If your mount supports Polar,Settings to modify the settings.

Now, that's what I mean. If anyone truly thinks that's as easy as it is on the asiair - I cannot believe they have actually done it on both systems. I have done (since stellarmate's is just same as Kstars). And seriously, it just is not as easy and quick. length of triangles, plate solving vs move star and calc - enough already. 🤨

[Stuart1971]

2 minutes ago, powerlord said:

 Joey's kernel is required for the usb and power board to work on the asiair - is that correct ?

I'd quite like to try it and give it a work out you see, but don't really want to faff around with rebuilding kernels to get it working. And running it on a pi is no use to me, as I'd lose the 12v power connectors I need and would need to faff around with new pi case, bla bla.

I posted a message to joey on youtube saying it'd be great if he could make imgs available for openastro for the asiair pro. Similarly it'd be great if stellamate could do the same.

I'm assuming you also have an asiair and after evaluating them side by side have decided stellamate's mobile app is better ? I've not seen any in depth reviews comparing them both ? All I find are ones reviewing stellarmates web interface. e.g:

https://webofoptics.com/stellarmate-vs-asiair/

I do think stellarmate shoots itself in the foot as a software offering not offering and evaluation option - and it's what has always put me off trying it frankly. It's money down the pan if I don't like it. And for me anyway, I'd only be interested if if works on my asiair pro - since that's what I have already HW wise, and all the cabling, mounting, etc that goes with it.

i.e. Im not paying $50 to run it on a pi4 as I know that's not a viable real option for me without also then getting 12v distribution boards, etc, etc - so not work paying.

However saying it doesn't rely on any other software is not accurate I think ? It is in it's own way just a package of other things - ekos/kstars, astronomy.net, etc.

https://www.stellarmate.com/

And this website states:

StellarMate is a verstile OS that supports multiple methods to control it.

1. The first and primary supported method to control StellarMate remotely is via the Ekos 64bit desktop application on Mac/Linux/Windows.
2. The secondary supported method is to treat StellarMate as a mini-PC and access it over VNC or directly via HDMI/Keyboard/Mouse. You can use Ekos directly on StellarMate and it supports all the features just like the 64bit version.
3. The final and third method is via the StellarMate Mobile App. The app is still in development and does not cover many features in the desktop application

Everytime these asiair vs others comparisons come along, some folk get hostile on the anti-asiair side. I just don't understand that as a tech guy, and an experienced IT guy - they are different. To say one is better than the other is total nonsense - you might as well argue windows is better than linux, a ferrari is better than a tesla, a horse is better than a dog. I don't think statements like @Backyardscope "asair is just a rebranded..." help new users at all either - they are again, false.

I would never say asiair is better than stellarmate. Any more than I'd say stellarmate is better than astroberry. It needs honest evaluation of the features that are important to you as a user - and that requires information out there to be accurate and without bias.

If Joey can persuade me I can get stellarmate working on my asiair, I may buy it and try my best to do an evaluation which is accurate and unbiased , as well as a review of how it compares for my use. I have alread done those evaluations privately for other software - astroberry, PC - kstar/ekos/phd2, NINA. I found each of these powerful, but complex, buggy, unreliable, unscalable, and messy to use (x86, remote required, not mobile, etc) FOR ME. Since I valuable plug and play and mobile control, and total reliability more than anything else - and asiair does that for me 100%. However, I'm a geek - I like trying new things - I have no chips on my shoulder or skin in the game --I've just bought a dwarfii to try along with the S50 I have, etc -- So I am genuinely interested if Stellarmate are one the way to achieving the same level of black box bit of HW don't worry about what runs under the lid 'just works' asiair. Having an asiair I can 'flip' to being stellarmate and therefore open the door to non ZWO camera would be useful Im sure for certain stuff.

atb

stu

AFAIK, SM does work on the ASIair, I had an ASIair for a short while to evaluate and ditched it pretty quick and went back to SM, I now use QHY cameras…

Not sure on the power port issue as I have always used a Pegasus UPB so it’s never something I have needed.

Yes SM does rely on ekos, PhD2 plate solving etc, you are correct there…

The app is much further down the line that that statement makes out, I think that has been there a long time, as I saw that 2 years ago….

The only issue i has with SM on a PI mounted on my rig, was over VNC at 4k resolution it could be laggy, but that where the app then comes in, if it has been as stable as windows Remote Desktop is, I would have stuck at using it that way, and running it all from the RPI on the mount…

I don’t like ASIair because of the lock in with ASI kit, if it worked with other cameras great, but they can’t do that as I believe it’s part of the license or it will encroach on SM customers….and that was the deal I believe….and rightly so, or Jasem would be out of business….as he can’t compete with ZWO…yet…

Although since the 2 guys who owned ZWO split, I think they’re products have suffered a bit, as it was the main man who left and founded Player one Astronomy….

[Backyardscope]

I am sorry if I have caused confusion nor was to cause offence. Nor do you need to justify your profession, who cares! @powerlord

But I do stick to my opinion INDI was very much there before ZWO decided to somewhat replicate the idea and make it proprietary to only their devices, nice idea if you want lock people into buying your devices.

Some people prefer Open Source you know!  and not just locked into one brand and nor is it about being Anti-ASI.

However, I do wonder did ASI credit the original open source community for their efforts?

Some of my previous cameras were ASI Pro's.

Nor did I claim that ASIAIR was inferior or better then Stellarmate. I gave my 2p's worth. 

If your happy with the ASI and it floats your boat stick with it. Why bother looking at something else!

N.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Backyardscope