How to use SkySafari with a GOTO mount?

[PeterC65]

I use a SynScan AZ GOTO mount with a hand controller for visual astronomy, and I mentioned recently in an observing report that when doing visual (as opposed to EAA) I miss having Stellarium to hand so that I can check what I'm supposed to be observing. @RobertI recommended using the Starsense app at the mount as an alternative. I don't have this but do have SkySafari on a tablet, and I've played with this during daylight and decided that it would be useful for checking star patterns at the mount when doing visual.

This got me wondering whether I could just use SkySafari to control the mount, working through an Observing List rather than entering object IDs into the hand controller from a printed list which is my current method. I can see that this would be possible if I got a WiFi dongle for the mount, but then I would have no hand controller. I use the hand controller to nudge the mount when the GOTO doesn't get it quite right, or when I want to scan the area around the object. So I'm thinking that I would need to use two app, SkySafari for finding objects and the SynScan App to give me manual mount control (and to align the mount). Then I would need to switch between the two apps which on my tablet would reveal a full brightness screen, destroying my dark adaption.

How do others use SkySafari with their GOTO mount? How do you avoid a bright screen?

One related question ...

My mount doesn't have Freedom Find so I have to use the hand controller to slew. With Freedom Find, do you need to unlock the clutches to move the scope manually after using GOTO? I assume it isn't possible to use GOTO to slew the scope and then just move the scope manually as well?

As things stand I'm planning to stick with the hand controller for alignment and manual slewing, and just setup an observing list in SkySafari to check what I should be seeing.

 

[RobertI]

For Celestron mounts you can buy the SkyFi Portal dongle and use the Sky Portal app or SkySafari to do the initial alignment, find objects, slew and nudge. So I think you would have everything you need. You can set the display to night mode and dim it, and it doesn’t affect night vision too much. I’ve never tried in a really dark sky site though. I am guessing for Skywatcher there is a similar wireless dingle solution. 

[Zermelo]

Yes, I use it this way and it works very well for me.

With iOS, I understand its possible to redden the screen in the operating system, which affects all running appa, and avoids the brightness during switch. I have Android, and it seems all that's possible there is to dim the screen to minimum and use the night light facility to take out the blue.

So instead I've created a screen for my phone, by attaching a piece of red plastic to a gel phone case. In my Bortle 4 neighbourhood, it's rare that I find it too bright.

Note also that SkySafari has its own slewing controls. There are only 4 speed levels instead of the 9 in Synscan, but most of the time you may find that you don't need to switch. I've gotten into the habit of switching every few minutes because, historically, Android killed off background processes if they weren't used. But I think I've stopped it from doing that.

With Freedom Find, you slacken the alt clutch knob. It moves in azimuth if you just push it. You can use goto and manual slews in any sequence, though once you've used a manual slew, it can degrade subsequent gotos, because the second set of encoders is less accurate (because they're on the coarse side of the gearing).

Edited September 9, 2023 by Zermelo

[Knighty2112]

I have a heq5 pro and have a synscan wifi dongle plugged into where the hand controller would plug in on the mount to use wifi on the mount. I then use the Synscan Pro app on my ipad to connect up initially to the mount and do an alignment with. After alignment complete I then switch over to using Skysafari Pro 7 (can’t get it to work on SS Pro 6). You can set the display in SS to night so it goes red, but I just generally set the display brightness on SS right down on my ipad. I use the direction controls on SS display if I ned to move the scope slightly to get items in view better. TBH once I’ve done a 3 star alignment on Synscan Pro app, using SS Pro 7 after that to select objects works very well. Doing it this way means you need to have the Synscan Pro app running still for the connection, and SS Pro 7 joins onto that. 
 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Knighty2112

[happy-kat]

I use skysafari 4 plus, you will need sysafari pro or plus version to use with a synscan compatible mount from what I have read, I prefer the plus version to the pro for me

[RobertI]

2 hours ago, Zermelo said:

With iOS, I understand its possible to redden the screen in the operating system

Yes, that’s correct, I do this in addition to the night mode in SS - I think it’s set up in Accessibility options and activated with a triple click of the on/off button. It’s necessary as the iPhone has a bright white bar which sometimes appears at the bottom of the screen which needs reddening, and as you say, for using other apps.

[Zermelo]

21 minutes ago, RobertI said:

Yes, that’s correct, I do this in addition to the night mode in SS - I think it’s set up in Accessibility options and activated with a triple click of the on/off button. It’s necessary as the iPhone has a bright white bar which sometimes appears at the bottom of the screen which needs reddening, and as you say, for using other apps.

And in Android, if you've chosen to use gesture control for switching, you have an annoying white line at the bottom.

As you say, night/red modes are available for both SynScan and SkySafari, though if you need to enter text, you are at the mercy of the keyboard, which won't follow the app setting. Skysafari has a built-in keyboard that you can redden, but I prefer SwiftKey for other reasons, and I've not yet found a suitable red theme to install for that.

[PeterC65]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm not able to connect SkySafari to the mount at present, and didn't realise there was a mount simulator, so I wasn't aware of the manual slew buttons in SkySafari. Now that I can see them with the mount simulator, they would allow me to do what I currently do with the handset, apart from alignment for which I could use the SynScan App.

It sounds like Freedom Find would only let me manually adjust the mount in azimuth, still having to unlock the clutch to move it by hand in altitude. It sounds like using the slew buttons would be better anyway. And there was me thinking this could be an excuse to buy an AZ-GTiX!

I'm thinking I might get a Sky-Watcher SynScan WiFi Adapter then I will be able to connect SkySafari to my current mount.

I'm using an Android tablet which shows at least the white navigation bar when switching between apps, hence my desire to avoid switching apps during a session.

 

[Zermelo]

30 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

It sounds like Freedom Find would only let me manually adjust the mount in azimuth, still having to unlock the clutch to move it by hand in altitude.

No, you can move it in both axes, it's just that for azimuth there's no knob to slacken.

[Zermelo]

32 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

I'm using an Android tablet which shows at least the white navigation bar when switching between apps, hence my desire to avoid switching apps during a session.

I use a phone, but I have a tablet that I want to try out. Unfortunately SkySafari is currently having a hissy fit with Android 13, so awaiting a fix from devs.

One feature that might be better on the tablet, when I get to use it, it's that there's a setting to dim the screen below the normal minimum brightness. It's in the accessibility settings, but I'm not sure if it's contained in that android version universally, or whether it's part of the Lenovo bake specifically.

[Elp]

SS Pro works reasonably well with an azgti, though I haven't managed to figure out how to sync the app to the mount (ie if the scope is centered on the moon, in SS it shows as slightly off so if I try to goto in SS I usually can't see the object). Trying to sync it just says error or something like that.

[PeterC65]

3 hours ago, Zermelo said:

No, you can move it in both axes, it's just that for azimuth there's no knob to slacken.

Do you have to tighten the knob for GOTO and slacken it for manual? I'm assuming that you GOTO with the knob tightened and then have to slacken it to move the scope by hand.

[Zermelo]

2 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

Do you have to tighten the knob for GOTO and slacken it for manual? I'm assuming that you GOTO with the knob tightened and then have to slacken it to move the scope by hand.

Yes, though actually it doesn't seem to need to be very tight to goto.

[PeterC65]

3 hours ago, Zermelo said:

I use a phone, but I have a tablet that I want to try out. Unfortunately SkySafari is currently having a hissy fit with Android 13, so awaiting a fix from devs.

One feature that might be better on the tablet, when I get to use it, it's that there's a setting to dim the screen below the normal minimum brightness. It's in the accessibility settings, but I'm not sure if it's contained in that android version universally, or whether it's part of the Lenovo bake specifically.

I'm not sure what version of Android I'm using. It's a Samsung tablet that, I assume, keeps itself up to date. SkySafari Pro seems to work reliably on it but I haven't used it much. Stellarium (v23.1) running on my Windows 11 PC on the other hand freezes between 1-3 times during an EAA session, and almost immediately if I make it go full screen which is the only way to make everything appear red (unless I use a screen filter).

The night mode on SkySafari seems good, and I like the fact that it also deals with the keyboard.

 

[happy-kat]

Az-gti does also have an azumith knob to slaken

After aligning, if using the mount manually by pushing the telescope with hands then if the two clutches are done up again then freedom find means the mount knows where it is so if you select a target in synscan the mount will slew there.

If instead you had after alignment just use synscan buttons to slew somewhere then the mount knows where it is.

Freedom find I've found, in the synscan app you must have enabled the auxiliary encoders, synscan settings/advanced then enable auxiliary encoders

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by happy-kat

[Zermelo]

49 minutes ago, happy-kat said:

Az-gti does also have an azumith knob to slaken

Does it?

I have the AZ-GTiX, I assumed they would be the same.

[happy-kat]

The small knob at the bottom azumith clutch (altitude clutch out of shot)

Edited September 9, 2023 by happy-kat

[Jules Tohpipi]

Yes it’s correct that the AZ-GTi has separate clutches for alt and az. The alt clutch is much wider diameter than the az but still easy to operate. 
 

The AZ-GTi is also very easy to interface with Stellarium wirelessly on a PC (the same would probably apply if Peter added the WI-Fi dongle to his mount). There’s two different ways of doing it. The simplest is to first connect wirelessly to the mount using a mobile device and align the mount with the SynScan Pro app (basically same procedure as if you were only going to control the mount with the app). Next it’s then easy to tell Stellarium on a PC to control the mount wirelessly and Stellarium will indicate where the scope is pointing also. Alternatively you can interface with Stellarium using ASCOM. I found this video very helpful to understanding all the options. Note it doesn’t seem possible to use the Stellarium sync mount feature when in AZ mode. 
 

 

What has remained a frustration though is using the app ‘buttons” to makes minor adjustments to the mount. Sure they work but are not as convenient as the physical buttons on a handset. Nor can you use the SynScan app and a SynScan handset simultaneously with an AZ-GTI unfortunately. It’s an either/or choice. Used simultaneously they clash with each other and the mount starts behaving erratically. I discovered this when trying it with the AZ SynScan handset of my GOTO Dob (the two fight against each other) and tried it with the smaller and simpler tracking-only handset (which the AZ-GTi won’t respond to at all).

I use the Sky-Watcher Wi-Fi dongle on my Sky-Watcher GOTO Dob (it pre-dates Wi-Fi) and it works very well with the SynScan app. It essentially makes the old Dob behave exactly the same as the AZ-GTI when inside the app. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Jules Tohpipi

[PeterC65]

I have a three year old SynScan AZ GOTO mount which I think is no longer in production. It doesn't have WiFi but does have a hand controller.

When doing visual astronomy I use the hand controller to find targets, having printed out an observing list which I slip down the back of the eyepiece case. Sometimes I'm not confident that GOTO has centred on the object, or there is something in the field of view that I want too identify, then I have to go back inside and use Stellarium, which destroys my dark adaption. The plan with using SkySafari on the tablet outside at the mount is to avoid this. I don't need to use SkySafari to control the mount but it may make life a little easier. I'm going to try using it just as a visual reference only and if that works out then get the WiFi dongle.

When doing EAA I still have the hand controller connected but it has a USB connection and I connect this to the laptop via cables and a hub. I then run SharpCap and Stellarium on the laptop, both of which connect to the mount via ASCOM. My procedure is to align the mount using the handset, then GOTO with Stellarium and adjust the slew with the manual buttons provided by SharpCap. This is all with Windows 11. With Windows 10 I used the SynScan App to control the mount, then used the ASCOM drivers for the app (they are different from those for the mount) to allow control via SharpCap and Stellarium. This setup allowed me to align the mount from the PC using the SynScan app, but I can't get it to work with Windows 11. ASCOM does allow multiple clients to control a single mount, so SharpCap and Stellarium can be used together.

I'm happy with my EAA setup and would be loathed to change it and potentially break something. I need the USB cable for the camera feed in any case (I don't have a ZWO camera so can't use ASIair and don't want the stress of a mini PC at the mount).

 

[Jules Tohpipi]

Thanks Peter, I was interested to know your set-up/workflow in more detail.

During the early days after getting the AZ-GTi, I had flirted with the idea of using SkySafari to control it (but never pursued it to its conclusion). There were several discussions on SGL I read through where members had success from tablets, albeit it wasn't that intuitive to initiate the connection and there was a process to follow. Could have sworn I bookmarked one particularly useful post detailing it step by step; however, I can't find it now after much searching this morning. Sorry that's not more specific information but it's definitely possible it seems. At the time I was searching on SkySafari and AZ-GTi - the process of which I believe will be the same for your mount with the [potential new] Wi-Fi adapter.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Jules Tohpipi

[happy-kat]

I found the stumble block was getting the port right for sky safari otherwise it didn't connect, 11882

[PeterC65]

I've been playing with SkySafari in daylight and discovered that you can get it to do manual slew of the mount by tilting the tablet rather than using the on screen arrow keys. This strikes me as a great feature. I like to be looking though the eyepiece as I slew the mount which is one of the reasons for sticking with the more tactile hand controller, but even with the hand controller I often press the wrong key. Tilting the tablet seems to be more intuitive on the face of it.

Do other use this tilt feature to manually slew the mount?

It's looking increasingly likely that a WiFi dongle will be getting purchased!

 

[Zermelo]

1 hour ago, PeterC65 said:

I've been playing with SkySafari in daylight and discovered that you can get it to do manual slew of the mount by tilting the tablet rather than using the on screen arrow keys. This strikes me as a great feature. I like to be looking though the eyepiece as I slew the mount which is one of the reasons for sticking with the more tactile hand controller, but even with the hand controller I often press the wrong key. Tilting the tablet seems to be more intuitive on the face of it.

Do other use this tilt feature to manually slew the mount?

It's looking increasingly likely that a WiFi dongle will be getting purchased!

 

That would be the "Tilt device to slew" settings option?

I've never tried that, but I should give it a go. The Help text says that the manual slew buttons are hidden if the option is active. I'm wondering if the slew speeds in that mode are continuous, rather than the four discrete speeds available with the manual buttons. The app would be receiving information from the gyros at quite high resolution, so it should be possible.
I find that I usually want something like a speed "2.5" as the best compromise between speed and noise, so that would be quite handy.

[Zermelo]

On 09/09/2023 at 21:36, happy-kat said:

The small knob at the bottom azumith clutch (altitude clutch out of shot)

Now that's interesting.

I just checked my AZ-GTiX, and it does have the same knob. I thought it was different, just a locking mechanism, but the manual says it is indeed the Az clutch. I've never used it, I've just had it very loose, but the goto and tracking have been fine. It must be set up that way. My Star Discovery mount has an altitude clutch but nothing for azimuth.

[Elp]

I find the roughness or available natural friction of the azgti construction actually helps its operation, loads can be slightly unbalanced in RA or DEC and it'll track fine. If I tried that with my ioptrons I'd have to throw at least half the subs away.