A WARNING on the StarAdventurer GTI

[drjolo]

1 hour ago, Astroscot2 said:

I wonder how common it is for the RA adjustment screw to become loose on this mount?  Reason I say this  is that Ive owned my SA GTI for nearly a year and used it a lot,  during normal operation I do loosen the DEC axis so I can view through the polar scope but rarely touch the RA adjustment due to my set up.

I have been using my GTi for several sessions already and did not touch the RA screw since the first time I adjusted it. The total RMS guiding error is consistent at about 2". 

RA screw is accessible when you remove the label sticker. The DEC cover comes out clean and easily

[Adam J]

1 hour ago, Astroscot2 said:

I wonder how common it is for the RA adjustment screw to become loose on this mount?  Reason I say this  is that Ive owned my SA GTI for nearly a year and used it a lot,  during normal operation I do loosen the DEC axis so I can view through the polar scope but rarely touch the RA adjustment due to my set up.

Adam was this an issue from when you received the GTI or noticable over tim?,  something I may need to watch out for.

 

Mark

Just reading this again, I am not talking about the clutch, I am talking about the worm gear setting screw that is hidden under a label and would not normally need adjustment. 

Adam

[Adam J]

10 minutes ago, drjolo said:

I have been using my GTi for several sessions already and did not touch the RA screw since the first time I adjusted it. The total RMS guiding error is consistent at about 2". 

RA screw is accessible when you remove the label sticker. The DEC cover comes out clean and easily

You can access it externally but on mine it kept coming loose requiring frequent adjustment and so i needed to remove the RA cover to add lock tight to the thread. 

The Dec is easy to access as seen in the picture. 

Also several seasons? It only came out in August last year? and announced some time early 2022.

Adam

Edited May 24, 2023 by Adam J

[drjolo]

Several sessions - six nights or so, as I recall in the backyard and one starparty. I received mine at the end of February. 

I do not use it with batteries but checked what you described, and yes - I cannot place a polar scope cover when the batteries are inside. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by drjolo

[Adam J]

2 hours ago, drjolo said:

Several sessions - six nights or so, as I recall in the backyard and one starparty. I received mine at the end of February. 

I do not use it with batteries but checked what you described, and yes - I cannot place a polar scope cover when the batteries are inside. 

Ah got it. 

Adam

[Nakedgun]

19 hours ago, Adam J said:

The first thing that annoyed me with this mount was that its not possible to put the polar scope cover in place if you actually have batteries in the holders, anyone else noticed that?

But having just had to remove the cover to tune my RA worm mesh I can tell you that its one of the worst things I have ever had to deal with, and I am well versed in activities such as astro modifying DSLRs, tuning the AZ GTI and other mounts. Its a mine field of epic proportions and makes me wonder what they were thinking. The mount looks well made and well designed from the outside but once you scratch the surface you realise the number of corners cut to make it to a cost.

SA actually mounted the Main Board on the back of the cover that you need to remove to access the worm gear assembly. This is bad because its not possible to see that the main board is located in such a way until you start trying to pull it off! 

WARNING: DO NOT TRY TO REMOVE THE COVER WITHOUT FIRST REMOVING THE MAIN BOARD FROM THE INSIDE FACE! If you do then you will likely pull connectors out all over the place and potentially damage the board as in their rush to save every penny SW have not made the cables just 3cm longer to allow you to fully remove the cover before having to unscrew the board. As such getting it off is almost impossible, but that is nothing in comparison to putting it back on again ill warn you. Even worse you cant perform common maintenance such as refreshing the lubrication to the RA worm without having to go through this.

The second thing that annoys me is that they have designed the set screw that determines the amount of pressure placed on the spring mounted RA worm in such a way that is is almost inevitable that its going to loosen off over time (the reason for having to open it in the first place). The ring that it threads into is able to rotate relative to the spur and there is sufficient friction between the two such that it will wiggle the screw from side to side every time the direction of movement of the mount is changed and it comes loose as a result. I have now added purple lock tight to mine to prevent it from doing this again others have used PTFE tape I may yet have to go back and do that if its not sufficient.

The next thing is the use of specialist nuts...who has heard of a pig nose nut? Well you will need a specialist tool to undo it so best find out, if you find yourself having to do this. If you have heard of one you will know you need a circlip spanner to undo one. Not a big deal right....well it is a big deal as this one has 1.5mm holes in it and you just try finding a tool with 1.5mm prongs.

In short this thing makes working on the AZ GTI look easy by comparison and I do not recommend that the average user attempts to tune the mount themselves as things are likely to go down hill very fast.

All was ok and its back together and working fine now, but if I had known I would have thought twice about it.

Some general advice to Skywatcher, don't attach things to covers.....people might actually want to take them off. Even if you do then allow for a little slack in the cables. 

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Adam J

 

 

 

 

~

This posting provides a service to existing and/or potential users of this mount.

Photos taken during these procedures would have proven invaluable, in my view.

 

.

[Adam J]

12 hours ago, Nakedgun said:

~

This posting provides a service to existing and/or potential users of this mount.

Photos taken during these procedures would have proven invaluable, in my view.

 

.

It was not my intention from the outset to inform other of an issue as when I started taking it apart I did not know it would be so difficult and once I had it apart I was fully focused on getting it back together again. 

Adam

[malc-c]

23 hours ago, Adam J said:

Yes but 'how' would they (SW not FLO) 'fix it' if I had chosen to send it back under warranty?? Would they just re-adjust the screw only for it to keep working its way out again and again?? There is also the fact that if it had been done properly (using purple lock-tight or equivalent) in the first place I would not need to be doing it at all. 

Honestly in many ways I have more confidence in myself when it comes to a lasting fix, but this one did stretch the skill set for sure. 

Adam

Just to clarify that any warranty claim or claim under UK consumer law is dealt with by the retailer who sold you the goods.  That is who you have a "contract" with and who you have paid your hard earned cash to.  I can't speak for FLO or RVO or any of the other SW retailers on how they would process a warranty return if a protective sticker had been broken.  Each case would be dealt with individually, and with their experience should be able to tell if the user's activity was the cause of any failure or if the covers have never been removed.  In this case if it seemed that all that was required was to add some locking compound to a grub screw and make any adjustments that are needed before securing the cover and returning the mount back to you.  It's then down to the retailer to seek redress from the sole distributor should they receive a high percentage of the same product back with faults (hence why we see products recalls.

To be honest the warranty a product comes with is just a guide in which the manufacture feels a free repair is acceptable.  But UK consumer law is what governs the rights to the consumers expectations.  If your mount failed two weeks outside of warranty it is still the retailer who deals with the case, and in some cases (not directed at any astro kit supplier) they might try fobbing the customer off as its no longer in "warranty".  In reality in such cases I'm sure FLO or RVO (and other reputable retailers) would still agree to resolve the issue free of charge (and thus increase their reputation).  However, as mentioned before, goods are expected to last for a reasonable amount of time based on the retail selling price.  For example you would expect a £2000 TV to last a lot longer than a £200 TV.  The same may translate to SW mounts. 

As a side note, you mentioned seeking advice and authorisation from the retailer to brake that seal in order to affect a fix, which was given.  Again, its worth getting such agreements in writing, should something else happen and the mount needs a return for the same issue or unrelated issues and then the retailer tries to refuse the warranty claim (again, this is not directed at FLO / RVO or any other large retailer who prides themselves with an excellent reputation for customer satisfaction).

[FLO]

Oh my!  Where to begin? 

On 24/05/2023 at 02:27, Adam J said:

I do not recommend that the average user attempts to tune the mount themselves ...

We agree.

Compact astronomy mounts can be difficult to service so if you own a Star Adventurer GTi that requires attention, we recommend you contact your supplier. 

On 24/05/2023 at 09:57, scotty38 said:

The manual does say there are no user serviceable parts inside and if anything is needed you should contact tech support. It also says do not disassemble.

@scotty38 is right. Sky-Watcher have not designed the mount for home servicing. They are very clear about this. 

On 24/05/2023 at 02:27, Adam J said:

SA actually mounted the Main Board on the back of the cover that you need to remove to access the worm gear assembly. 

SW have not made the cables just 3cm longer to allow you to fully remove the cover before having to unscrew the board. 

The next thing is the use of specialist nuts...who has heard of a pig nose nut? Well you will need a specialist tool to undo it so best find out, if you find yourself having to do this. If you have heard of one you will know you need a circlip spanner to undo one. Not a big deal right....well it is a big deal as this one has 1.5mm holes in it and you just try finding a tool with 1.5mm prongs.

None of this is a problem. We have the necessary knowledge and tools in our workshop. 

Remember, this mount was not designed to be serviced by the owner. 

On 24/05/2023 at 02:27, Adam J said:

... they have designed the set screw that determines the amount of pressure placed on the spring mounted RA worm in such a way that is is almost inevitable that its going to loosen off over time (the reason for having to open it in the first place).

Currently, this is not true. It is only speculation. 

FLO is Sky-Watcher's largest UK retailer, and the Star Adventurer GTi is a very popular mount. If it had an inherent fault, we would know about it. 

This year, so far, only two problems have been reported to us: One mount arrived without its bubble-level, and another had a faulty tripod leg. In both instances, we simply posted replacement parts. 

If you own a Star Adventurer GTI mount. Don't worry. The odds are in your favour. And if, sometime in the future, your mount does need attention, you need only contact us (assuming it was purchased from FLO) for support. 

4 hours ago, malc-c said:

Just to clarify that any warranty claim or claim under UK consumer law is dealt with by the retailer who sold you the goods.  That is who you have a "contract" with and who you have paid your hard earned cash to. 

This is true. In this instance, Adam's supplier is FLO. There is no issue. No argument. There has been no falling out of any kind. 

FLO's service and support is over and above what is required by UK consumer law. It always has been 😇 

Adam wrote to us back in Sep 2022 (eight months ago) to say he wanted to open and adjust his mount. We like to help, and we know he has previous experience working on mounts, so we agreed he could do so without it affecting his warranty. We made an exception for him. 

HTH, 

Steve 

[Adam J]

2 hours ago, FLO said:

Oh my!  Where to begin? 

We agree.

Compact astronomy mounts can be difficult to service so if you own a Star Adventurer GTi that requires attention, we recommend you contact your supplier. 

@scotty38 is right. Sky-Watcher have not designed the mount for home servicing. They are very clear about this. 

None of this is a problem. We have the necessary knowledge and tools in our workshop. 

Remember, this mount was not designed to be serviced by the owner. 

Currently, this is not true. It is only speculation. 

FLO is Sky-Watcher's largest UK retailer, and the Star Adventurer GTi is a very popular mount. If it had an inherent fault, we would know about it. 

This year, so far, only two problems have been reported to us: One mount arrived without its bubble-level, and another had a faulty tripod leg. In both instances, we simply posted replacement parts. 

If you own a Star Adventurer GTI mount. Don't worry. The odds are in your favour. And if, sometime in the future, your mount does need attention, you need only contact us (assuming it was purchased from FLO) for support. 

This is true. In this instance, Adam's supplier is FLO. There is no issue. No argument. There has been no falling out of any kind. 

FLO's service and support is over and above what is required by UK consumer law. It always has been 😇 

Adam wrote to us back in Sep 2022 (eight months ago) to say he wanted to open and adjust his mount. We like to help, and we know he has previous experience working on mounts, so we agreed he could do so without it affecting his warranty. We made an exception for him. 

HTH, 

Steve 

 

All as above, no issues with FLO I could have sent it back if I had wanted under warranty at any time, I am just a hands on person and so like to get dug in myself. If your reading irritation into my post it was off the back of a tricky and annoying job (once you have dropped a screw into the body of the mount a few times at 1am you can get a little grumpy about it) and nothing to do with anything else. 

Steve I have never had an issue with your service at FLO. Yes, I decided back in September that I would live with tweaking it from time to time but it got annoying that the mesh was not holding so I decided to try the fix at this time now that i am not using it due to loss of astro-darkness. I thank you for the original permission, it was a while back but I did not perceive it as being a time limited permission. It is done now and working better than ever in any case, so no harm done, time will tell if the thread lock will hold the screw. I only mentioned I had discussed it with FLO as I did not want people to think that I was advocating this procedure at the expense of invalidating a valued warranty. This level of flexibility, it is one of the things i like about you as a supplier. Having said that though with my acquired knowledge of the mount I don't suggest you allow anyone to do the same. 

As I say no real issues just fiddly, but at the risk of sounding arrogant it is not something I think anyone should try, so my main goal here is to warn other owners. Most will still be inside warranty but not forever and I know that there is a large community that will want to tune the mount to improve performance irrespective, so better forewarned with knowledge if they are going to do it anyway. 

It is a harder nut to crack than the AZ GTI and some danger exists if your not careful (irrespective of experience) due to the configuration and short cables. That is the message I want people to leave this thread with, all in all I would still recommend the mount. 

Cheers, 

Adam

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Adam J

[malc-c]

21 hours ago, FLO said:

This is true. In this instance, Adam's supplier is FLO. There is no issue. No argument. There has been no falling out of any kind. 

FLO's service and support is over and above what is required by UK consumer law. It always has been 😇 

Adam wrote to us back in Sep 2022 (eight months ago) to say he wanted to open and adjust his mount. We like to help, and we know he has previous experience working on mounts, so we agreed he could do so without it affecting his warranty. We made an exception for him. 

HTH, 

Steve 

Steve,  to be honest I knew it wouldn't be anything else.  There are several examples where you guys and the guys over at RVO have gone that extra mile.   I listen to a daily consumer show and it's surprising how many big names including the likes of John Lewis who don't follow UK consumer laws and push the customer to the manufacture should an item develop a fault once the warranty period has expired, even on items like TVs costing thousands. 

I think your approach really does show how things should be.  Adam approached you for advice before opening the mount.  You were well within your rights to say warranty void but didn't, it's been documented that permission was given and the warranty would not be affected.  Now whether this has set a precedent, and others will say that as an exception was made for Adam it should be made for them, only time will tell 🙂   

[Adam J]

6 hours ago, malc-c said:

Steve,  to be honest I knew it wouldn't be anything else.  There are several examples where you guys and the guys over at RVO have gone that extra mile.   I listen to a daily consumer show and it's surprising how many big names including the likes of John Lewis who don't follow UK consumer laws and push the customer to the manufacture should an item develop a fault once the warranty period has expired, even on items like TVs costing thousands. 

I think your approach really does show how things should be.  Adam approached you for advice before opening the mount.  You were well within your rights to say warranty void but didn't, it's been documented that permission was given and the warranty would not be affected.  Now whether this has set a precedent, and others will say that as an exception was made for Adam it should be made for them, only time will tell 🙂   

Got to be honest I don't think a precedent has been set, it's up to the retailer in question. Also on reflection I think it was a mistake for me to bring it up. As above my experience in servicing it means I would recommend that they don't give permission in future, for this procedure or anything that required work on the RA, the Dec is a different matter that's very easy to access. As pictured above four screws and you are in. 

It's about being sensible no one gains anything from having to arrange return of an item and lose use of it for a period for the sake of removing a cover and plugging something back in or tightening a screw. But if that process carries additional risk sending it back under warranty is the way to go. 

When I asked permission to do this the mount was totally new on the market so doubt even FLO knew what was involved in accessing the RA drive and no tutorials existed online. 

On the other hand if SW have made those cables longer in the later batches, it's less of a problem, but I would not bank on it. 

Adam

Edited May 26, 2023 by Adam J

[Adam J]

So this link shows the board in question. 

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/808906-star-adventurer-gti/page-29

User Steve6291 on CN having opened the RA for exactly the same reason I did (mesh adjustment screw coming loose), several others in the same thread.

He also notes the short cables. But the two he points out are not the motor drive as he claims they are for the Snap port and the USB connection. 

My solution to the short cables was different though, as I know those type of surface mount connectors are delicate (hence my broader concern about damaging the board) I decided against tugging the cables out and instead removed the worm drive assembly to enable sufficient clearance for the screw driver to reach the main board mounting screws. A more fiddly but safer option. 

Adam

Edited May 26, 2023 by Adam J

[recceranger]

It’s a fragile mount. I’ve used mine for six sessions and I now have about a cm give in the RA axis when fully locked down. Backlash is now horrendous and guiding almost impossible. I also have the Star Adventurer 2i and it’s been operating perfectly for the past 2 years. I think the design and build quality of the GTI is questionable at best. 

[FLO]

On 05/06/2023 at 22:31, recceranger said:

It’s a fragile mount. I’ve used mine for six sessions and I now have about a cm give in the RA axis when fully locked down. Backlash is now horrendous and guiding almost impossible. I also have the Star Adventurer 2i and it’s been operating perfectly for the past 2 years. I think the design and build quality of the GTI is questionable at best. 

This is not normal. Yours must be faulty. Was it purchased from FLO? 🙂 

Steve 

[recceranger]

On 08/06/2023 at 16:32, FLO said:

This is not normal. Yours must be faulty. Was it purchased from FLO? 🙂 

Steve 

Hi Steve, I’ll check with the Mrs. She bought me the mount for last Christmas and she usually purchases from FLO. I’ll come back to you and TY

[Adam J]

On 11/06/2023 at 02:33, recceranger said:

Hi Steve, I’ll check with the Mrs. She bought me the mount for last Christmas and she usually purchases from FLO. I’ll come back to you and TY

When I am discussing backlash I am talking about a mm or two not a CM. The mechanism I am talking about above would not allow such a large amount of movement. You have a different issue possibly something wrong with the clutch or maybe the worm itself is moving laterally. 

Above is a tuning issue, what you have is a fault and not normal as Steve says. 

Adam 

[FLO]

On 05/06/2023 at 22:31, recceranger said:

It’s a fragile mount. I’ve used mine for six sessions and I now have about a cm give in the RA axis when fully locked down. Backlash is now horrendous and guiding almost impossible. I also have the Star Adventurer 2i and it’s been operating perfectly for the past 2 years. I think the design and build quality of the GTI is questionable at best. 

Your mount is on our bench.

We noted some impact damage. That could've loosened the mesh, but it hasn't.

We didn't find notable backlash. Indeed, the mount is designed so that, even if the gearbox loosens, it is impossible to experience more than around 1.5-1.7mm backlash in the worm/wheel engagement (determined by the thread pitch). To experience more, the RA worm must be completely disengaged. 

Where are you measuring 1 cm backlash? Perhaps you are measuring movement at the front of your telescope. I.e. if the mechanism has 1mm backlash, then this would equate to around 1 cm movement at a telescope objective 50 cm away from the pivot point. The actual backlash would still only be 1mm. 

Anyhow, your mount is good, so we'll reassemble and return it to you. 

HTH, 

Steve 

[recceranger]

On 22/06/2023 at 14:39, FLO said:

Your mount is on our bench.

We noted some impact damage. That could've loosened the mesh, but it hasn't.

We didn't find notable backlash. Indeed, the mount is designed so that, even if the gearbox loosens, it is impossible to experience more than around 1.5-1.7mm backlash in the worm/wheel engagement (determined by the thread pitch). To experience more, the RA worm must be completely disengaged. 

Where are you measuring 1 cm backlash? Perhaps you are measuring movement at the front of your telescope. I.e. if the mechanism has 1mm backlash, then this would equate to around 1 cm movement at a telescope objective 50 cm away from the pivot point. The actual backlash would still only be 1mm. 

Anyhow, your mount is good, so we'll reassemble and return it to you. 

HTH, 

Steve 

Some customer/supplier correspondence is better in private message don’t you think

[scotty38]

Why? You said the mount has huge issues and they say it doesn't so what's wrong with them responding to those comments given they're selling said mount?

I guess you didn't need to post what you did but surely it cannot be a one way street here if you choose to do so.

No disrespect intended just trying to be fair.....

[Adam J]

SO...to bring this back onto topic, there are reports that people who have more recently opened the mount up found glue like residue already on and around the adjustment screw.

So it appears that Skywatcher may have taken note and added a step to the build process to prevent the screw from becoming loose over time. 

See purple substance below on and around the thread. Essentially the same solution as what I applied to my mount. 

Credit:  Challenger 75 on cloudy nights 

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/808906-star-adventurer-gti/page-21

 

Adam

Edited July 12, 2023 by Adam J

[recceranger]

On 12/07/2023 at 08:43, scotty38 said:

Why? You said the mount has huge issues and they say it doesn't so what's wrong with them responding to those comments given they're selling said mount?

I guess you didn't need to post what you did but surely it cannot be a one way street here if you choose to do so.

No disrespect intended just trying to be fair.....

I totally disagree with you here I'm afraid. Yes, open forum is fine to express an opinion with regards to the performance (or lack of) of equipment. However, when it comes to the private business between paying customer and supplier, then those matters should not be open source. So I'm sorry, you are incorrect. 

I hope this clarifies it for you

Edited July 13, 2023 by recceranger

[scotty38]

30 minutes ago, recceranger said:

I hope this clarifies it for you

Not really but thank you anyway.