One thing I've always wondered about

[DaveL59]

Whenever someone asks for a scope recommendation, the majority of  responses are dob and almost always a big one. Now I do get that with a mirror in a bucket you get no chromatic aberration, parabolic mirrors give sharper images than spherical and in fact I do have a couple reflectors in the collection I have so I've aware that they're actually pretty good. Better than the TAL100RS refractor, meh I enjoy the views that scope gives me just as much and also the LT70AZ that is smaller, lightweight and a nice and easy rig to just plop into the garden and play. As for CA, well neither refractor show that much to my eyes or maybe is just that I'm using better eyepieces (tho nothing like the mid-top end ones) so perhaps it doesn't get compounded further?

The argument that's always made tho is how a dob is far better because its on a cheap but stable mount so all the money is spent on giving you the best optics. Yet they're still shipped with a middling 20/25mm and a vaguely mediocre 10mm and if lucky an average performing barlow. So to me the argument about the money and better optics makes little real sense as you're still going to need to go spend lots more on better eyepieces. The only gain I can see is you get a larger aperture vs say a refractor in the same price point which may not be as well mounted as it could be but would work ok. 

To me a huge dob isn't an attractive option, storage, lugging it and the poking and prodding to keep it on target is very inelegant compared to SloMo controls that you can just tweak easily, likewise fitting an RA motor if you have an EQ mount to let the mount track for you making for much more relaxed viewing. The bottom end Alt-AZ gear that starter scopes have lack some of that refinement of course so that's where pennies were cut in building but even so to me they are more natural to use. I have to say had I gone and got a big dob to start with I'd probably have given up on this passtime long ago 🙂 

Shame TAL aren't manufacturing any more as at least with their gear you got a quality set of mirrors, albeit lower end were spherical, a solid mount with SloMo controls and eyepieces and barlow that were actually very usable, at least the examples I have are to me. Not to mention a finder scope that is optically excellent too.

Thoughts?

...heads off to grab the popcorn and pull up a chair now 😉 

[Elp]

I think it largely depends on circumstances, I've wondered the same why dobs are always recommended but in visual or even imaging aperture is king. Where I am if I were to use my 60mm refractor to look for DSOs even expected bright ones like clusters I will struggle to see them even though the optics of the scope are first class, if I use a camera with it the DSOs appear quick. When I've then used my 130pds I can make out the same DSOs visually usually with averted vision, and that's a relatively small aperture compared to say a 12 inch dob. So it does make a difference. I however have no interest in storing a large telescope so my niche is more compact ones which I can pack away. If I were to live in a lower bortle area I may consider a dob or a truss type one.

[DaveL59]

yes for me also there's the small garden with fences, so I'd miss getting much of a view of the planets until they were almost at the oak tree where tripod mounted I can see much lower and so get more time to view them. The light pollution here (these days skies are grey rather than black) I'd likely not find any dim objects without the go-to or starsense, let alone see many of them.

Edited August 13, 2022 by DaveL59

[SthBohemia]

🙂 for better or worse... I don't like Dobs!! Especially if one has the need to 'lug' it around 😞 Much prefer a mount that sits within a yard covered by a sack! Maybe Dobs are OK if the primary mirror is over 12 inches and the scope is housed within a shed, but (to me) there are better alternatives. Nothing wrong with a home made GEM from 1.25"+ bright steel shafts, water pipes, pillow blocks and 3/8" plate steel or 12.5mm aluminium, adding worm/wheels, setting circles blah blah as 2 ones own taste... Shrugs, maybe it's just ancient relics, like me of the old school, that bothers to DIY these days... 🙂 Even make my own outdoor and indoor furniture...

@Dave59 you deserve a medal for persistence "The light pollution here (these days skies are grey rather than black) I'd likely not find any dim objects without the go-to or starsense, let alone see many of them." I have not, until recently, even bothered about the scopes. Now am wondering if it worth the trouble to wander outside now and again to see if the sky is relatively clear. Clouds, clouds, rain, more clouds, pollution and clouds, light haze and clouds. Bortle 5 here @Dave59 , if it were any worse I would not bother with night viewing. Maybe a solar setup would better suit me 🙂 

Shrugs.. In anycase, give it another 5 years and I shall dump all the astro gear on a local Astro club 🙂 

[cajen2]

Complaining about the low quality of EPs supplied with a scope is ridiculous. Yes, they are often of poor quality and will be replaced by better glass. But many scopes come with no EPs or perhaps just one, so new EPs must be bought anyway. The supplied stuff will give a beginner something to look through until he's learnt something about the sky and what he's most interested in, thus having a better chance of buying EPs that he needs.

As to storage / carrying difficulties with large dobs, there's no reason why they should be large. A Heritage Flextube 130/150p will give you a healthy aperture and views for the price and is easy to store, carry and set up. Compare a 6" refractor with an adequate mount and tripod. I know which I'd rather shift around!

So let's not make this another tedious frac v. dob thread and agree that both have advantages and drawbacks.

[DaveL59]

17 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

Complaining about the low quality of EPs supplied with a scope is ridiculous. Yes, they are often of poor quality and will be replaced by better glass. But many scopes come with no EPs or perhaps just one, so new EPs must be bought anyway. The supplied stuff will give a beginner something to look through until he's learnt something about the sky and what he's most interested in, thus having a better chance of buying EPs that he needs.

As to storage / carrying difficulties with large dobs, there's no reason why they should be large. A Heritage Flextube 130/150p will give you a healthy aperture and views for the price and is easy to store, carry and set up. Compare a 6" refractor with an adequate mount and tripod. I know which I'd rather shift around!

So let's not make this another tedious frac v. dob thread and agree that both have advantages and drawbacks.

Fair enough but I'm not in the mindset of frac vs dob with this one, more the why is it if "the money is spent on giving you the best optics" are duff eyepieces shipped. I very much doubt that it costs more to make an 8-inch mirror than a 4-inch doublet lens with automated manufacturing these days so that argument seems wrong to me.

There's also the ease of use esp when sharing with others, young children in particular as well as angle of view to the sky, after all not everyone has low fences or horizons. Its just very noticeable that every time the "what scope" question comes up there's lots of "a big dob" and sometimes doesn't take into account other information provided such as young kids etc. And the comment on better optics is always used to sway the theme. The folding scopes seem OK so long as you've something to plonk it on, I don't have a table out in the garden tho many likely do but probably not in the ideal place to observe from.

It all just made me want to ask... Why?

Edited August 13, 2022 by DaveL59

[SthBohemia]

5 minutes ago, DaveL59 said:

the why is it if "the money is spent on giving you the best optics" are duff eyepieces shipped.

^^ Because the companies are cheapskates and wish to maximise profits 🙂 So "dere'...

[cajen2]

5 minutes ago, DaveL59 said:

Fair enough but I'm not in the mindset of frac vs dob with this one, more the why is it if "the money is spent on giving you the best optics" are duff eyepieces shipped. I very much doubt that it costs more to make an 8-inch mirror than a 4-inch doublet lens with automated manufacturing these days so that argument seems wrong to me.

There's also the ease of use esp when sharing with others, young children in particular as well as angle of view to the sky, after all not everyone has low fences or horizons. Its just very noticeable that every time the "what scope" question comes up there's lots of "a big dob" and sometimes doesn't take into account other information provided such as young kids etc. And the comment on better optics is always used to sway the theme. Made me want to ask... Why?

I think you're missing an obvious point. A cheapish 102 doublet might be comparable in price to a cheapish 8" dob, but that's only taking into account the cost of the OTA. Once you add a diagonal, a finder, a reasonable mount and tripod, there's a considerable difference in price. So recommending a dob at a particular price break makes more sense.

[Zeta Reticulan]

Sir Patrick Moore always maintained that a 4" refractor was roughly equal to a 6" reflector. Obviously the larger aperture will have better resolution and light grasp, but the refractor can seem as effective for a variety of reasons. I am not a Dob' fan although I can appreciate the idea of mounting a large aperture Newtonian on a simple mount. There is an old joke on astronomy forums that the answer to every question asked on a forum is 'A sixteen inch Dob'. I have telescopes ranging between 60mm and 235mm. I've had over a hundred observing sessions so far this year. Sixty five of them have been with refractors of 80mm and under. Forty nine sessions have been with either my 72mm Evostar or 60mm ED doublet. I think that says it all.

[Mr Spock]

The eyepieces shipped with a scope are irrelevant in most cases. Mine are still in the box. They are thrown in to get people started. You are buying a scope, not the eyepieces (which may cost more than the scope in some cases).

It's like complaining about the free cd's shipped with a cd player. It's never music you're going to listen too...

[cajen2]

3 minutes ago, Zeta Reticulan said:

Sir Patrick Moore always maintained that a 4" refractor was roughly equal to a 6" reflector. Obviously the larger aperture will have better resolution and light grasp, but the refractor can seem as effective for a variety of reasons. I am not a Dob' fan although I can appreciate the idea of mounting a large aperture Newtonian on a simple mount. There is an old joke on astronomy forums that the answer to every question asked on a forum is 'A sixteen inch Dob'. I have telescopes ranging between 60mm and 235mm. I've had over a hundred observing sessions so far this year. Sixty five of them have been with refractors of 80mm and under. Forty nine sessions have been with either my 72mm Evostar or 60mm ED doublet. I think that says it all.

Fine, that's what I said: each to his own. But if I wanted to buy a frac, mount and tripod, etc to match the views given by my StellaLyra 8_ dob, how much would I have to spend? There's no way I could afford both.

 

[DaveL59]

3 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

I think you're missing an obvious point. A cheapish 102 doublet might be comparable in price to a cheapish 8" dob, but that's only taking into account the cost of the OTA. Once you add a diagonal, a finder, a reasonable mount and tripod, there's a considerable difference in price. So recommending a dob at a particular price break makes more sense.

didn't think I was missing the point at all but to each his own. Sure if you're going to ship an OTA with a decent mount and tripod so folk can compare it to an ultra stable dob, say, but lets face it starter scopes are provided with the basics rather than an HEQ6 or similar. Fact is they work, ok a bit wobbly as shipped but some simple DIY can make them a lot better and not cost a fortune to do. They're also lighter and easier to move out and set up etc so I'd still say... why...

[Mr Spock]

Dobs are the best value for money, that's why they are recommended. An 8" Dob costs the same as a small EQ mounted achro refractor and would spank it in every observational way imaginable.

[DaveL59]

2 minutes ago, Mr Spock said:

The eyepieces shipped with a scope are irrelevant in most cases. Mine are still in the box. They are thrown in to get people started. You are buying a scope, not the eyepieces (which may cost more than the scope in some cases).

It's like complaining about the free cd's shipped with a cd player. It's never music you're going to listen too...

being devil's advocate then... so the money isn't spent on giving you the best optics? 

Just a bigger mirror 😉

[Mr Spock]

Just now, DaveL59 said:

being devil's advocate then... so the money isn't spent on giving you the best optics? 

I don't know who said that or how you reached that conclusion, but, the mirror on the Dob gives significantly better images than an achro refractor can muster. 

[DaveL59]

I just wonder how long little 10YO jimmy will remain interested after waiting for mum & dad to try find something and then the elders getting their look with of course the fiddling to regain/retain target, then after say 20 mins of waiting about he gets a look and oh, in 2 seconds its gone and we go round again. 

[Zeta Reticulan]

I think complaining about the quality of the bundled eyepieces with what are effectively Synta entry level scopes is a bit redundant. Anyone buying a scope in that category for the first time would expect to be able to use it out of the box. It would not make economic sense to bundle expensive eyepieces. 

Some bundled eyepieces are better than others.

[cajen2]

6 minutes ago, DaveL59 said:

I just wonder how long little 10YO jimmy will remain interested after waiting for mum & dad to try find something and then the elders getting their look with of course the fiddling to regain/retain target, then after say 20 mins of waiting about he gets a look and oh, in 2 seconds its gone and we go round again. 

And this doesn't happen with entry-level fracs? (Particularly those with EQ mounts...) 🤣

[Zeta Reticulan]

11 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

Fine, that's what I said: each to his own. But if I wanted to buy a frac, mount and tripod, etc to match the views given by my StellaLyra 8_ dob, how much would I have to spend? There's no way I could afford both.

 

Astronomy for me is about enjoying the night sky. I live in a Bortle 4-5 area. I'm also physically disabled. A Dob' isn't practical or enjoyable for me to use. I have as much fun with my 60mm as anything else. It isn't always about what you can see, it's about enjoying the night sky.

I like having fun.

[DaveL59]

2 minutes ago, Mr Spock said:

I don't know who said that or how you reached that conclusion, but, the mirror on the Dob gives significantly better images than an achro refractor can muster. 

I don't disagree that a large mirror will give great images, at least compared to a smaller achro that'd be in a similar price bracket. I find my 4-inch TAL100RS gives at least as good views as my TAL-1 or Skywatcher 130 but OK they aren't 8-inch dobs so am I comparing apples with apples etc. But with these I can see over the fence without raising the tripod too much, a dob wouldn't no matter how big the mirror.

Reason I made that comment tho is I always hear the dob brigade cite how those are much better because of the lower cost mount so all the money is focused on getting you the best optics. Clearly not entirely correct, well in my view anyway. For someone new and asking for guidance they'll not know the difference and given the usual large number saying dob and a couple that might say something else I guess they'd end up with a dob as anyone else is pretty much drowned out under the sound of the stampede. Now some may get on fine with a dob, others will abandon the hobby because they don't or end up trying to find something else that better suits their circumstances at of course a loss financially to them so walking away might be the easier choice for them too.

I'm just asking the question "Why" as we aren't really giving a balanced response in many cases and sometimes it doesn't seem as if we've taken all the background info into account. Kids get bored easily as most of us know, but so do adults. Heck I quickly gave up trying to manually navigate as with light skies it was a chore and wasted time, hence I got a GoTo and also Starsense, so much easier and kept me aboard with the option to look at other stuff when the planets aren't about to view. Sure Turn left at Orion is good but still doesn't find you the target in 5 seconds. Those who've been doing this a long time and easily skip and hop between targets maybe forget how frustrating it can be for a beginner and how easily folks would then give up, again my opinion as sorry if I misjudge those who do consider that aspect.

To be honest a lot of the time I pass by the "what scope" questions as I know it'd be pointless to offer my 2 cents with the way those threads usually go, but as kids were mentioned in this one I thought it worth suggesting the starsense option as its for the young family that she asked.

[DaveL59]

17 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

And this doesn't happen with entry-level fracs? (Particularly those with EQ mounts...) 🤣

didn't say it wouldn't, my post to the what scope thread was they'd have budget for a NexYZ phone holder too so they could use a phone to the eyepiece and all be able to see together and might even tease a bit more depth from the fainter objects as EEVA does. Sure you could to that with a dob too, not that anyone suggested it as the responses more forcused on "get a dob" than anything else.

[PeterStudz]

47 minutes ago, DaveL59 said:

I just wonder how long little 10YO jimmy will remain interested after waiting for mum & dad to try find something and then the elders getting their look with of course the fiddling to regain/retain target, then after say 20 mins of waiting about he gets a look and oh, in 2 seconds its gone and we go round again. 

I have been reading this thread with “interest ” and wasn’t going to reply but this amused me. 

I’ve only been into astronomy for 18 months partly because my then 10 yr old daughter showed great interest. But one thing I/we did regret was NOT getting a Dob in the first place. We now fortunately have one and have never looked back. And we’ve never had any of the problems mentioned above! Now, we are in Bortle 7 and if we have to we can find anything in a few moments using the PushTo feature of PSAlign Pro - it’s an iPhone app that costs a few quid. At the moment I don’t have a lot of spare cash so have appreciated the value a Dob gives.

As for tracking I made an EQ platform for under £50.

Edited August 13, 2022 by PeterStudz

[PeterStudz]

13 minutes ago, DaveL59 said:

didn't say it wouldn't, my post to the what scope thread was they'd have budget for a NexYZ phone holder too so they could use a phone to the eyepiece and all be able to see together and might even tease a bit more depth from the fainter objects as EEVA does. Sure you could to that with a dob too, not that anyone suggested it as the responses more forcused on "get a dob" than anything else.

I splashed out on the NeXYZ phone holder but found it rubbish and far over priced for what it is. The £9 no-name brand I got off eBay works far better for me and is far less faff. 

[DaveL59]

13 minutes ago, PeterStudz said:

I have been reading this thread with “interest ” and wasn’t going to reply but this amused me. 

I’ve only been into astronomy for 18 months partly because my then 10 yr old daughter showed great interest. But one thing I/we did regret was NOT getting a Dob in the first place. We now fortunately have one and have never looked back. And we’ve never had any of the problems mentioned above! Now, we are in Bortle 7 and if we have to we can find anything in a few moments using the PushTo feature of PSAlign Pro - it’s an iPhone app that costs a few quid. At the moment I don’t have a lot of spare cash so have appreciated the value a Dob gives.

As for tracking I made and EQ platform for under £50.

Glad it worked for you Peter. Thing is on the thread that got me to start this one there's no mention of apps or anything else to assist a newb to find targets quickly. If anything like I was a couple years back when I started and you didn't know, you read about star hopping and then try and fail tho my skies have gone from a reasonably velvet black 5 years ago to light grey so that doesn't help much. Starsense makes it far simpler and when I pass this little LT70 to my daughter who is in S London where skies are worse she might actually be able to use it and show the grandkids stuff, being she's never done astronomy before she'd have no chance otherwise I expect.

There's also the option of SkEye that does similar to starsense but without the camera so less accurate but still useful but I didn't find those or figure them out till I'd already gotten a SynScan GoTo EQ5. For me working odd hours back then and being tired I wanted something easier than struggling and wasting already limited time trying to find something that I knew was up there, roughly, but  not finding it etc.

Perhaps worth posting your experience on that "what scope" thread as it is at least relevant experience of similar circumstances (young kids) 🙂 

Edited August 13, 2022 by DaveL59

[SthBohemia]

2 minutes ago, DaveL59 said:

SkEye that does similar to starsense

^^ @Dave59 The above leaves me totally out in the 'dark', as have no idea what they are. As to what they do... 😞 

Obviously I have little experience with 'very bad' seeing conditions. As have never purchased a new scope have no real idea what EP's they come with, as for mountings, a modified Celestron CPC carries anything I have, maybe one day it will also accommodate the unfinished 200mm Cassegrain 🙂