One thing I've always wondered about

[Mr Spock]

11 minutes ago, DaveL59 said:

Thing is on the thread that got me to start this one there's no mention of apps or anything else to assist a newb to find targets quickly.

There was no such thing when I started - no such thing as the internet either. It didn't dampen my enthusiasm or stop me finding things. For many years all I had was a copy of Norton's Star Atlas. 

[Zeta Reticulan]

Like DaveL59, these days I'm often reluctant to recommend starter scopes to novice astronomers. I don't think I've ever seen a forum that isn't rapidly drowned out by the 'Dob Mob'. It's a shame that a more balanced or nuanced view can't be achieved. Particularly for newbies who must be suffering from a terrible information overload. 

I recall on one forum recommending a small ED doublet to a retired lady living in an apartment building. She had no knowledge of astronomical equipment at all. She would have to use a lift to get the telescope out of her flat and use outside. I suggested a small portable, but effective scope, combined with a light portable tripod. 

Within minutes the Dob Mob descended on the thread. Eventually she was convinced to buy a large Dobsonian because it 'would see more'. I often wonder how she got on dragging that huge scope into a lift and then outside.

[Zeta Reticulan]

2 minutes ago, Mr Spock said:

There was no such thing when I started - no such thing as the internet either. It didn't dampen my enthusiasm or stop me finding things. For many years all I had was a copy of Norton's Star Atlas. 

Wot no planisphere? lol

[DaveL59]

3 minutes ago, Mr Spock said:

There was no such thing when I started - no such thing as the internet either. It didn't dampen my enthusiasm or stop me finding things. For many years all I had was a copy of Norton's Star Atlas. 

Appreciate that so learning the hard way was the only way, kudos to all who did/have. For me its always been an area of interest but not passionately so tho I've always been looking at the stars, probably more the easy constellations if I'm honest and I've learned of more of what's up there to see since being on here. It was after moving to this place and doing a lot of binocular overhauls, using the stars as a test that my interest re-sparked and so the quest for a scope. Trouble is the sky got lighter and travel/job tiring so that just added to the difficulty/inertia to not bother. Hence the GoTo and Starsense have been great as I just ask and they provide. Lazy I know, c'est la vie 😉 

[PeterStudz]

Hi Dave,

I’ve been meaning to post more. Using PushTo in PSAlign Pro was one topic, but often struggle to find time. I also find it hard to write things down!

Young kids is also a good one too. What I have learnt and works for us, is to make the session an event. One recent example is my daughter inviting a friend over for a sleep-over. Her friend saying she was interested in looking through the telescope.

Alice and her friend camped in the garden. It was summer so no issues with the cold. I got them up at about 2am, although they hadn’t gone to sleep as they were too excited. Not really excited about the astronomy but excited about the sleep-over, camping etc. We viewed the moon, Saturn, Jupiter, a couple of star cluster and the ring nebula (only DSO that stood out in the moon light). There was also a shadow transit of Io which was fun. Oh and the GRS. Kids love seeing that. Plus they saw a few shooting stars. In between I made them hot chocolate and toasted marsh mellows. As the sun came we saw a fox with its cubs and heard the dawn chorus. Alice’s friend had never heard the dawn chorus. After that they finally went to bed.

It didn’t end there as when they woke up we did a little solar. At the time there were some big and beautiful sunspots. I find that kids like looking at sunspots. Often more than DSO which require some skill, patience, eyes use to the dark etc. The whole  event was finished off with a cooked brunch in the garden. 

The whole thing literally took me 3 days to recover from  But see what I mean by an “event”.

[SthBohemia]

@Dave59 WHAT! You missed all the joys of astro navigation with nothing other than a late 1800's yoke mounted 12.5" F10 Newt!

Now that WAS a mount, cast originally for Sydney Observatory, weight est 300Kg...

Will find some pics of it from old negatives I hope I still have...

[DaveL59]

2 minutes ago, PeterStudz said:

Hi Dave,

I’ve been meaning to post more. Using PushTo in PSAlign Pro was one topic, but often struggle to find time. I also find it hard to write things down!

Young kids is also a good one too. What I have learnt and works for us, is to make the session an event. One recent example is my daughter inviting a friend over for a sleep-over. Her friend saying she was interested in looking through the telescope.

Alice and her friend camped in the garden. It was summer so no issues with the cold. I got them up at about 2am, although they hadn’t gone to sleep as they were too excited. Not really excited about the astronomy but excited about the sleep-over, camping etc. We viewed the moon, Saturn, Jupiter, a couple of star cluster and the ring nebula (only DSO that stood out in the moon light). There was also a shadow transit of Io which was fun. Oh and the GRS. Kids love seeing that. Plus they saw a few shooting stars. In between I made them hot chocolate and toasted marsh mellows. As the sun came we saw a fox with its cubs and heard the dawn chorus. Alice’s friend had never heard the dawn chorus. After that they finally went to bed.

It didn’t end there as when they woke up we did a little solar. At the time there were some big and beautiful sunspots. I find that kids like looking at sunspots. Often more than DSO which require some skill, patience, eyes use to the dark etc. The whole  event was finished off with a cooked brunch in the garden. 

The whole thing literally took me 3 days to recover from  But see what I mean by an “event”.

haha yeah I hear you re the late nights. Used to be no prob to work 36 hours when needed and just carry on with life, these days one very late night and I'm done for a few days, ain't age great 😞 And for the moment I don't even have to worry about work but that's likely to change soon if this new job gets the green light and I'll have less time to be outside late.

Get what you mean re kids too, easily distracted and friends over trumps just about everything but sounds like it was a great time for all. These days with the kit available its so much easier to get them interested and involved than it was when I was a kid, or my daughter even tho when she was little time would've been the killer as I was travelling around the country a lot.

[PeterStudz]

10 minutes ago, Zeta Reticulan said:

Like DaveL59, these days I'm often reluctant to recommend starter scopes to novice astronomers. I don't think I've ever seen a forum that isn't rapidly drowned out by the 'Dob Mob'. It's a shame that a more balanced or nuanced view can't be achieved. Particularly for newbies who must be suffering from a terrible information overload. 

I recall on one forum recommending a small ED doublet to a retired lady living in an apartment building. She had no knowledge of astronomical equipment at all. She would have to use a lift to get the telescope out of her flat and use outside. I suggested a small portable, but effective scope, combined with a light portable tripod. 

Within minutes the Dob Mob descended on the thread. Eventually she was convinced to buy a large Dobsonian because it 'would see more'. I often wonder how she got on dragging that huge scope into a lift and then outside.

When recommending anything (not just telescopes) you need to find out some details about the individual. I would have thought that was common sense. 

When I bought our first kit I did a lot of my own research (not 100% successful) and went on the principal that if we didn’t get on with it I would cut our loses and sell secondhand. So I made sure we had something that had reasonable second hand value. After all, we didn’t even know if astronomy would be for  us. 

[Paz]

I think a sensible starter scope depends on someone's circumstances, what they want to achieve, and what they want to spend. My scopes fit into 3 groups - the small ones are all refractor's, the mid sized ones are catadiatroptics, and the big one is a reflector. I didn't plan for things to end up that way but the pros and cons of the different designs and their value for money at a given aperture probably has something to do with it.

Personally I would usually say a small refractor on an alt az mount is a good idea for simplicity and for breaking down into smaller/lighter/more manageable parts or mid sized reflector on a dobsonian mount is good where people have the space to store it and the ability to move it easily (and it does have to be easy or it will quickly become a turn-off), but I wouldn't rate either as being simply better than the other.

[Zeta Reticulan]

5 minutes ago, PeterStudz said:

When recommending anything (not just telescopes) you need to find out some details about the individual. I would have thought that was common sense. 

When I bought our first kit I did a lot of my own research (not 100% successful) and went on the principal that if we didn’t get on with it I would cut our loses and sell secondhand. So I made sure we had something that had reasonable second hand value. After all, we didn’t even know if astronomy would be for  us. 

She gave the same information to everyone IIRC. Everyone's situation is different and subjective, of course. I've witnessed the descent of the Dob Mob on so many forums though. It is a bit weird and almost cult-like. I believe the OP's point was that novices aren't getting a balanced view of available options. Many moons ago I originally started out with a small Tasco refractor. As a schoolboy I though it was wonderful. It was a very good introduction to the night sky, however. Later I acquired larger reflectors. If I had to recommend a scope to a complete beginner it would still be a small inexpensive refractor.  It wouldn't matter anyway. As they'd almost certainly be convinced by consensus to buy a large Dob',

[DaveL59]

That was pretty much the point I was trying to make. Of course that I prefer a frac lends others to think I'm more sided that way in option and it becomes a dob vs frac debate which wasn't the aim. It is true that I prefer a tube+lens vs a bucket+mirror aesthetically and I wonder how many look at a newt/dob and think "that's a telescope???" as on film/TV you usually see a frac lurking in the background but never a dob.

Was amusing to see it all start with huge dob, 200 this etc then it tailed to a probably more sensible folding 150/130. Likely easier to manage for a young family, after all kids take up crazy amounts of space with all their own stuff if memory serves. And three well I do remember how that was both as a kid and my own brood, barely room to swing a cat as it were! We're all of course assuming this will be a new hobby that will develop a lifetime interest for them but it may fade quickly just as easily, so a nice starter setup at reasonably low outlay seems a good way to start off esp in the economic climate we're now in.

Anyways, hopefully she'll read all those responses in the thread and ask more before dropping a wedge n some light gathering kit. For sure we'll be happy to help spend the cash, hopefully on the best fit for them rather than ourselves 😉 

Edited August 13, 2022 by DaveL59

[bosun21]

1 hour ago, cajen2 said:

And this doesn't happen with entry-level fracs? (Particularly those with EQ mounts...) 🤣

Another point is for a beginner an EQ mount can be a nightmare  to operate properly. They are counter intuitive and they have to learn how to polar align before they can view anything while using slo mo controls. 

[Orange Smartie]

This is an interesting topic. I have 2 dobs, but wouldn't recommend the larger one to a newcomer - it is simply too large and heavy. I would recommend the smaller tabletop one, and have, because it's light, relatively cheap, compact, easy to set up and gives good views. Does that make me part of a "dob mob" (a slightly pejorative term, I would say)? Probably! However, that doesn't make my personal experience invalid.

I haven't ever had the chance to look through a refractor or mak - I would love to, if and when the chance comes along. I don't think I would regret the choices I've already made though. I'd be very interested to see a thread based around the lines of "I bought a ...... and wish I hadn't because...." as I feel negative reviews are far more revealing than positive ones.

 

[DaveL59]

1 minute ago, bosun21 said:

Another point is for a beginner an EQ mount can be a nightmare  to operate properly. They are counter intuitive and they have to learn how to polar align before they can view anything while using slo mo controls. 

can be, but the starsense ones are all alt-az and some GEM's can be operated alt-az too, just set the latitude to zero or 90 🙂 

[bosun21]

1 minute ago, DaveL59 said:

can be, but the starsense ones are all alt-az and some GEM's can be operated alt-az too, just set the latitude to zero or 90 🙂 

Alt Az is another matter altogether. Yes even a 102 frac on an alt az go to would be a great beginners scope.

[Moonshane]

I think most scopes these days give decent views per aperture. People should make choices based on observing preferences and personal circumstances. As for eyepieces, you may be surprised what little difference there is. Perhaps read https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/166265-cheap-vs-expensive/ which I wrote a rather shocking ten years ago! Not much has changed since then although I did sell the 13mm Ethos, preferring Delites now. The 26mm Nagler remains 😁

Edited August 13, 2022 by Moonshane

[DaveL59]

2 minutes ago, Orange Smartie said:

I'd be very interested to see a thread based around the lines of "I bought a ...... and wish I hadn't because...." as I feel negative reviews are far more revealing than positive ones.

 

I bought a Nat Geo 76/300 tabletop "dob" and its terrible to use, likely much as the firstscopes of similar type. But then that's not a fair comparison point against something like the flextube 130 and I'd only bought it as it was £10 used, very local and at the time I was thinking of the grandkids. Quickly realised that it'd be useless for them tho even after tweaking things to make it smoother, just a totally impractical design IMHO.

[Orange Smartie]

What would be really nice to see is a real world test - what you can actually buy for 200 or 300 quid in dob, mak, refractor. Bring along a bunch of newbies and see what's popular.

[DaveL59]

8 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

I think most scopes these days give decent views per aperture. As for eyepieces, you may be surprised what little difference there is. Perhaps read https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/166265-cheap-vs-expensive/ which I wrote a rather shocking ten years ago! Not much has changed since then although I did sell the 13mm Ethos, preferring Delites now. The 26mm Nagler remains 😁

thanks, I'd not seen that before. None of mine are at that price level, mainly TAL plossl or Vixen NPL with a few vintage ortho's and a zoom. I feel no need for wide AFoV etc. tho I can see the benefit with a non-tracking mount perhaps. That said, my scopes are all 'slow' which is easier on the eyepiece 🙂 

Edited August 13, 2022 by DaveL59

[SthBohemia]

14 minutes ago, bosun21 said:

Another point is for a beginner an EQ mount can be a nightmare  to operate properly.

^^Eh? Why? Forget GOTO and all the modern bells and whistles that some come with. An EQ mounted scope on even a DIY jumble of shafts and pipes is simplicity itself to use as it is aligned to follow the stars!! Mark the meridian with 2 stakes driven into the ground, point scope at stake.. Done. Better still (for those who like digging and mixing concrete) drive a 6" rainwater down pipe into the ground, fill with concrete, and make a permanent pier for the concocted mish mash of shafts 🙂 

[Elp]

14 minutes ago, Orange Smartie said:

Bring along a bunch of newbies

The problem with this is most of them are like wow (quietly: is that it?!?), most don't have the patience when youre busy setting up too. I believe if people are genuinely interested they'll make their own way into the hobby even if some requested assistance is required along the way.

[DaveL59]

1 minute ago, SthBohemia said:

^^Eh? Why? Forget GOTO and all the modern bells and whistles that some come with. An EQ mounted scope on even a DIY jumble of shafts and pipes is simplicity itself to use as it is aligned to follow the stars!! Mark the meridian with 2 stakes driven into the ground, point scope at stake.. Done. Better still (for those who like digging and mixing concrete) drive a 6" rainwater down pipe into the ground, fill with concrete, and make a permanent pier for the concocted mish mash of shafts 🙂 

Since I'm visual only I just plop the thing out in the garden and get it roughly aimed North. Ok I have to make a tweak here and there if I was a bit out but generally works fine for me. Of course there's an app now to help you do better which I'll use if getting the GoTo out just to save any hassles with it finding stuff later.

[Zeta Reticulan]

18 minutes ago, Orange Smartie said:

This is an interesting topic. I have 2 dobs, but wouldn't recommend the larger one to a newcomer - it is simply too large and heavy. I would recommend the smaller tabletop one, and have, because it's light, relatively cheap, compact, easy to set up and gives good views. Does that make me part of a "dob mob" (a slightly pejorative term, I would say)? Probably! However, that doesn't make my personal experience invalid.

I haven't ever had the chance to look through a refractor or mak - I would love to, if and when the chance comes along. I don't think I would regret the choices I've already made though. I'd be very interested to see a thread based around the lines of "I bought a ...... and wish I hadn't because...." as I feel negative reviews are far more revealing than positive ones.

 

I wish I hadn't bought this:

It's an 'Omegon' 90mm Maksutov. I chose this over the Orion equivalent as it was slightly faster. They were similar prices. I ended up with the Orion anyway. The Omegon (these are sold under other names) was a disappointment. It didn't focus sharply above about 40x and had poor build quality. I don't know whether Dob Mob is a pejorative term or not. After all, it rhymes well lol. Either way, it is a known phenomena on many forums. I've witnessed it many times. Particularly when beginners naively ask what is the best telescope to use. It's a fair and logical question to ask if you have no experience at all. I just believe that bombarding a newbie with the idea that bigger is always better isn't necessarily helpful. Which is why I'm personally reluctant to even offer advice now. 

[SthBohemia]

@Zeta Reticulan is it just a matter of the scope not being correctly collimated? Do you have anyway of testing its optics?

[Orange Smartie]

7 minutes ago, Zeta Reticulan said:

I just believe that bombarding a newbie with the idea that bigger is always better isn't necessarily helpful. Which is why I'm personally reluctant to even offer advice now. 

I agree. It would be nice to have an article aimed at those starting out with a consensus view on what makes a good starter set up given ambition, budget, local light pollution conditions etc.