Starter rig advice?

[lankywolf]

 

Before, I hit you with all my noob questions. I'll just tell you my situation. I've been observing the night sky on and off since I was a kid, but I've never had the time to dedicate hours and hours a week to it.  Now that my offspring are getting a bit older I'm finding I have more time on my hands to dedicate to the hobby.  I've always been interested in imaging, but knew that if you really want to do it properly you need to put the time in, so as I knew I wouldn't be able to do that, I've never bought any kit with a view to imaging.  

I have some relatively basic observational kit, namely an 8" dob and some fairly cheap 15x70 bins that I put on a tripod. I have never owned or used an equatorial mount and have always star hopped my way to targets. 

So, with a view to learning some of the basics (and hopefully achieving some halfway decent results) the plan for my first rig is as follows;

Tracker:  SW Star adventurer 2i Pro pack - £350.

Camera:  Used stock Canon 70d - £350 (plus potential astro mod £100).

Lens:  Samyang 135mm F2 - £370.

Filter:  I have no idea.  But I will mostly be imaging from my back garden in a West Midlands housing estate (bortle 6/7). I'd really appreciate some advice on this.

Tripod :  I currently put my bins on a Camlink TPPRO32B which I think I paid about £75 for years ago.  Not sure if this will be sturdy enough for imaging, so may need to replace.

Accessories:  Dew heater band and intervalometer - £50

I could possibly stretch my budget to say £1500, so I'm curious if there's anywhere I should invest more heavily. I really am undecided about the camera.  I've already changed my mind numerous times and as I only plan to use it for AP, should I just go straight in with a modded camera. 

I'm also aware that this rig will give fairly wide field images, and my ultimate aim is to get detailed images of galaxies and nebulae for which I'll need to invest in a heavier mount and a scope. But for getting my feet wet and learning the basics, I'm hoping this rig would be a good investment that would still get some use in 5-10 years time. 

So, I guess my ultimate question is, if you were starting out from my position and have the knowledge you have now, what advice would you give or what might you change about this rig? 

I think I've ended up going on a bit there, so thanks for reading. 

Any advice will be gratefully received. 

[Clarkey]

Welcome to the slippery (and expensive) slope that is AP....

I would say you starting kit is pretty sensible and will give you some great images and get you used to the processing side of the hobby. If you start with the Samyang 135mm you can always get another lens or two from Fleabay pretty cheaply. I think even a small widefield telescope would be possible later. With regards to the camera, if you are only using it for AP then get it modified. This will give you a much better Ha response and allow you to use things like dual band filters when the moon or LP does not allow broadband imaging. You could go straight to an astro camera, but a cooled version would take up most of your budget. You might be lucky and get one second hand, but for widefield you really need a reasonable size sensor (or mosaics) which makes the DSLR a good option. Also, if you buy a second hand DSLR you can always sell it and get most of your investment back.

With regards to filters more generally, my advice would be to avoid LP filters if you can. As a rule most LP these days is LED and the filters are not really designed for this. Personally get all the data you can and treat the LP on processing. If you keep your subs relatively short that will help.

As for the tripod - give it a go. If you struggle with movement you can get a new one. Just keep the legs as short as practical to prevent it wobbling.

I have a range of kit for different imaging and I am reluctant to let any of it go - for the simple reason it all does slightly different stuff. I think the equipment you listed will still be useable in a few years time for the same reason. Even if you move up to a bigger mount / scope, it as always good to have a portable set up. (In fact it is the next thing on my shopping list when SWMBO agrees).

Good luck.

[Elp]

Have you got a camera already which you can put onto the tripod and try some imaging as is? That would be my first recommendation and try to test how the tripod dampens vibration by touching the camera and see how long it takes for the live view (if you have the option) to stabilise. The tripod would be one of the most important purchases I'd say.

Are you looking to just use it at home or on travels too?

Generally you don't need filters to start with as they also block signal though Optolong L-Enhance and lextreme do work well on certain nebulae, they wouldn't be good for galaxies because of the reason above. Try imaging as is to understand how bad the light pollution is where you are and in which directions.

The star adventurer is good, I had one but didn't like having to find and align to targets in a bortle 7 as you won't be able to see them, only after a 60-120s exposure they appear faintly. I soon bought an azgti (you'll also need an equatorial wedge, DIY counterweight and bar, an eqdir cable and other equipment to computer control the rig it all adds up), you can use the azgti via the synscan mobile app, for imaging though you will need the equatorial setup and can "potentially" use the in built sidereal tracking function (it won't be as accurate as autoguiding which you'll need for long exposures). Another option will be the soon to be released GTi.

AP is a deep hole which will batter your wallet, take your time with it.

 

[ollypenrice]

As an astronomy provider I have some good optics available: Takahashi FSQ106, TEC 140, Meade 10 inch ACF, etc and, make no mistake, I would love to add a Samyang 135 to the lineup. This widefield lens is taking some of the best astrophotos I've ever seen. So I think that's a great choice. To get the best out of it you'll be introduced to the wonderful world of fine tuning to get rid of tilt and you'll meet the need to focus perfectly. This is good and necessary.

I've never been a DSLR fan and, nowadays, older CCD cameras are appearing for sale at knock-down prices. They will trounce a DSLR, except on chip size. A set of RGB filters won't break the bank and if you add an Ha filter you'll have a killer rig in place. Or you could go for a colour CCD. The smaller chip will make getting the tilt fettled much easier.

Don't expect many people to agree with this post! 🤣  I'm used to it.

Olly

[tomato]

I’m with Olly on the choice of camera. My own experience of starting out with an (old) DSLR then moving to a cooled OSC CCD was like night and day. If you are going to spend £450 on a modified DSLR, then you should seriously consider a used cooled CCD, I have seen the venerable Atik 383 up for sale recently for £500. Yes, you would also need a filter wheel and filters, but it will certainly out perform the DSLR for DSO imaging.

[Clarkey]

You can get a DSLR with an APS-C sensor for <£200. I don't think you would get close to this with a cooled astro camera. I agree that if you have the finances a cooled camera is certainly the way to go, but a good sized sensor which will pair well with a 135mm lens would be difficult to achieve within budget.

[lankywolf]

Thanks for the advice so far folks... I'm looking to keep things as simple as possible to begin with, which is the primary reason I've been favouring the DSLR/lens rig. I think for me it'll be more about learning and mastering the basics before moving onto more advanced kit. I will read up a bit more on dedicated astro cams, but was of the impression that they weren't really for noobs like me.

I was aware of the GTI mount but I'm already pretty adept at star hopping so don't anticipate too many problems from not having GOTO particularly at this focal length where I should have quite a few stars in the FOV for reference.  I'm also glad I asked about the LP filters as I probably won't bother with those based on the responses above. 

The main thing I can't decide on is the camera.. I don't already have one other than my smartphone. Let's assume I go for a DSLR. It must have a tiltable screen as I suffer a little bit with my back. What's the best I can get for say £500? 

Oh, and is there anyone in the UK that modifies Nikon cameras? I've been restricting myself to Canon as they seem to be the only ones that you can get mods on. 

Thanks for your help so far folks.. Much appreciated. 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by lankywolf

[ONIKKINEN]

28 minutes ago, lankywolf said:

Thanks for the advice so far folks... I'm looking to keep things as simple as possible to begin with, which is the primary reason I've been favouring the DSLR/lens rig. I think for me it'll be more about learning and mastering the basics before moving onto more advanced kit. I will read up a bit more on dedicated astro cams, but was of the impression that they weren't really for noobs like me.

I think there are enough things to learn in astrophotography as is and figuring out how to use a dedicated astro cam from day 1 will probably be confusing and lead to some headscratching. DSLRs are plug and play, you have live view, you have a screen to look at, you have the ability to easily view the images (No, you dont have this with astro cams!), you dont need external power or a computer to control it, you dont need AC power or a beefy powertank. With DSLRs your first step into astrophotography wont be nearly as frustrating IMO.

I think your plan sounds good!

[Swillis]

Looks like you have a pretty good plan for starting with. As has been said above all or most of those items would likely be with you for a long time even after upgrading to a larger scope and mount that would be a nice portable setup. One thing to add to the list might be a Bhatinov mask to help with focus on the Samyang. 

Finding dim targets through the viewfinder can be a little frustrating at times.  I'm sure your experience in star hopping will be useful, and you can always start with the easiest to find targets. I find that the live view is only really useful for focusing, as I can see much more through the viewfinder. If your worried about not being able to contort yourself into the right position I have seen a right angled adapter for the viewfinder (don't know what you call it) which may help. 

I'm very happy with the SW SA2i, and it suits me just fine so far. One day I will look to upgrade, the one main thing missing is the second motor. Not necessarily for the goto function (althought that would be useful) but I can see that I would want to start guiding at some point and I would only be able to guide in the one axis currently. 

On the question of DSLR Vs astrocam as mentioned above astrocams will outperform DSLRs (not that I have any experience, that's likely a while down the road for me). Personally a DSLR was an easy route into AP, its something I'm already familiar with and didn't require any further equipment/ software to learn. At the start with some much to learn, keep it simple. Also with an astrocam you need to download the image to a laptop/pc to see the image, which would mean a very slow process of lining up your target, so you would need a guidescope/finderscope of some description to go this route. 

One other thought is to consider how comfortable you will be with polar alignment. This will require crouching down to look up through the polar scope, there are some polar alignment aids out there (which I don't have experience of), but I think they would all need a laptop. Others may be able to help with this more. 

Good luck with YOUR journey.

Simon

[Clarkey]

8 hours ago, lankywolf said:

Let's assume I go for a DSLR. It must have a tiltable screen as I suffer a little bit with my back. What's the best I can get for say £500? 

I don't think you need to spend 500. You will get something like a 600D for 2-300 which would be a good starter.

You can convert Nikon cameras but I think Canon are generally easier to work with.

[ollypenrice]

Go To in AP is not like GoTo in visual observing. It saves the commodity in shortest supply - which is time. You don't just save time at the start, you save it when things go wrong and you lose your target - and there are plenty of ways to do that! Once you have your target framed you can note or save its co-ordinates and be back in business in no time. Reframing by eye takes a long time. You have to scan the edges of the image to be able to relocate the previous edge stars.

Tilt screens? It is so much easier and better to capture with a laptop. You have a bigger image at higher resolution which is a boon for focusing. Focusing a fast lens in AP is not like focusing in daytime photography. The quality of focus will not only impact on the sharpness of the image but on the quality of star shapes towards the edge. I wouldn't want to focus the Samyang while peering at a tiny camera screen. Both DSLR and CCD capture software offer assisted focusing usually using Full Width Half Max. (This will Google.)

Back to 'easier' DSLRs. If you take the whole process from start to processed finish, DSLRs are harder. Their output needs a lot more processing in order to get to a decent standard. You have more noise and more artifacts to deal with. It is pretty much obligatory to dither between subs. (Shock horror, I don't dither when shooting with CCD.) When framing, you can, with a CCD, get a clear view of the objects in the frame in very short exposures. No chance with a DSLR.  There is 'perceived easy' and 'real easy.' They are not the same.

Olly

[Tomatobro]

When I had a bad back I stopped using my EQ6-r for a while and got a star adventurer. Its a cracking mount  and I used it with a variety of cameras (DSLR and others) and scopes including the Samyang 135.

The problem you will have is finding the object to photograph. A laptop with plate solving software sorts this problem out but its best with a dedicated  astro camera as this will have the sensitivity and high speed that will make it a pleasure to use.

With the camera and lens pointing to roughly the correct bit of sky, expose and plate solve, make a note of the declination number and adjust the declination axis till the numbers match with the object of interest. Keep going through this loop but don't be tempted to alter the right ascension till the DEC is correct.

Then its a matter of adjusting the RA till the object appears on the laptop screen.

I resisted using plate solving software for ages but would not be without it now as it saves a great deal of time.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Tomatobro
spelling

[mightymonoped]

Hopefully not throwing a spanner in the works but there are some other bits worth considering. I used a Star adventurer extensively over the last three years or so, with a view to simplifying the setup and use as much as possible. Being limited to balcony viewing in local light pollution and also drivin by having as portable a rig as possible as I am a crutch-using amputee and sometimes need to move the rig without help.

Over that time, the rig has evolved into a pretty modular form that allows me to swap out components without major disruption. I have moved from a DSLR (EOS 60a) to a dedicated OSC camera (ASI294mc pro).

I also took the leap and bought a  ZWO ASIair pro, and this is when things really started to get interesting.

The ASiair allows me to do everything from a single hand-held device (in my case, my smartphone). It allows me to polar align easily, without additional gadgets or software, it provides plate-solving automatically (which makes targeting and framing easier), provides auto-guiding and allows control of additional add-ons such as electronic focuser.

The ASIair will work (with some limitations) with most popular astro DSLRs (but check first), however, when I moved to a dedicated ZWO astrocam, the whole process became a bit of a joy.

I now use that SA as my portable setup, having moved the rig seamlessly onto an EQ6-R.

The Samyang 135mm f2 fits fine on a William Optics Redcat 51 mounting ring and plate, this opens up the addition of 3d-printed additions such as ProAstroGear Black-CAT mount, to accommodate the ZWO Electronic Focusser, a small guidescope and the ASiair itself.

All of this can be done in stages, as budget allows but it is useful to have an end-goal in mind to avoid unecessary or redundant purchases.

Just some food for thought.

Tony

 

[lankywolf]

4 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

Go To in AP is not like GoTo in visual observing. It saves the commodity in shortest supply - which is time. You don't just save time at the start, you save it when things go wrong and you lose your target - and there are plenty of ways to do that! Once you have your target framed you can note or save its co-ordinates and be back in business in no time. Reframing by eye takes a long time. You have to scan the edges of the image to be able to relocate the previous edge stars.

Tilt screens? It is so much easier and better to capture with a laptop. You have a bigger image at higher resolution which is a boon for focusing. Focusing a fast lens in AP is not like focusing in daytime photography. The quality of focus will not only impact on the sharpness of the image but on the quality of star shapes towards the edge. I wouldn't want to focus the Samyang while peering at a tiny camera screen. Both DSLR and CCD capture software offer assisted focusing usually using Full Width Half Max. (This will Google.)

Back to 'easier' DSLRs. If you take the whole process from start to processed finish, DSLRs are harder. Their output needs a lot more processing in order to get to a decent standard. You have more noise and more artifacts to deal with. It is pretty much obligatory to dither between subs. (Shock horror, I don't dither when shooting with CCD.) When framing, you can, with a CCD, get a clear view of the objects in the frame in very short exposures. No chance with a DSLR.  There is 'perceived easy' and 'real easy.' They are not the same.

Olly

Thanks for this Olly, there's some good advice in there.  I've thought about the time it takes to star hop your way to a target and of course I see the advantage of GOTO in that respect.  I suppose what I meant is that I wasn't worried about being able to locate targets too much.  I hadn't considered so much losing my target part way through a session.  That would be a real pain without GOTO so thanks for bringing that up.  I haven't ruled out the GTI tracker, but obviously waiting for it to be released in the UK and to see how much Moolar I'll have to part with to get my greasy hands on one.  That maybe one area where I could invest a bit more.

I'm not daunted by an image that will need extra processing.  In fact in the early days I'll see this a somewhat of a positive.  Not because I consider myself as some kind of expert processor, quite the opposite in fact.  But the way I see it, the more processing I have to do, the more I'll learn about processing.  It's not so much about getting top quality images (yet), there's plenty of time for that.  For me it's more about getting something I can be proud of and learning the ropes step by step.

I am going to do some more reading on dedicated astro cams though.

[lankywolf]

5 hours ago, Swillis said:

Looks like you have a pretty good plan for starting with. As has been said above all or most of those items would likely be with you for a long time even after upgrading to a larger scope and mount that would be a nice portable setup. One thing to add to the list might be a Bhatinov mask to help with focus on the Samyang. 

Finding dim targets through the viewfinder can be a little frustrating at times.  I'm sure your experience in star hopping will be useful, and you can always start with the easiest to find targets. I find that the live view is only really useful for focusing, as I can see much more through the viewfinder. If your worried about not being able to contort yourself into the right position I have seen a right angled adapter for the viewfinder (don't know what you call it) which may help. 

I'm very happy with the SW SA2i, and it suits me just fine so far. One day I will look to upgrade, the one main thing missing is the second motor. Not necessarily for the goto function (althought that would be useful) but I can see that I would want to start guiding at some point and I would only be able to guide in the one axis currently. 

On the question of DSLR Vs astrocam as mentioned above astrocams will outperform DSLRs (not that I have any experience, that's likely a while down the road for me). Personally a DSLR was an easy route into AP, its something I'm already familiar with and didn't require any further equipment/ software to learn. At the start with some much to learn, keep it simple. Also with an astrocam you need to download the image to a laptop/pc to see the image, which would mean a very slow process of lining up your target, so you would need a guidescope/finderscope of some description to go this route. 

One other thought is to consider how comfortable you will be with polar alignment. This will require crouching down to look up through the polar scope, there are some polar alignment aids out there (which I don't have experience of), but I think they would all need a laptop. Others may be able to help with this more. 

Good luck with YOUR journey.

Simon

Ah yes, I forgot about the bhatinov mask.  A relatively cheap bit of kit to make life so much easier.  I forgot the ball head to put the camera on the tracker as well.  Blimey, this is adding up already! 😂

Thanks for the reply.

[lankywolf]

5 hours ago, Clarkey said:

I don't think you need to spend 500. You will get something like a 600D for 2-300 which would be a good starter.

You can convert Nikon cameras but I think Canon are generally easier to work with.

I did go through a 600D phase and an 800D phase..  I can't even remember what put me off now..  If there's not much discernable difference for AP, then the saving on the camera could go towards a GTI tracker.

The thing that I don't want to do is pay a load of extra money for a load of features for improving daytime photography, that make little difference to AP.  I'm trying to find where that sweet spot is. 🥴

[Elp]

I bought a Canon 600d primarily because it had a fully articulated screen. Only really use it for widefield or to capture larger targets, the mono astro camera is much better and the one which gets used the most.

 

[AstroMuni]

On 26/06/2022 at 12:14, lankywolf said:

Camera:  Used stock Canon 70d - £350 (plus potential astro mod £100).

If the budget is to spend £450 on a DSLR then there should be quite a few astro cameras eg. ZWO that will fit the bill. These days the read noise is quite low hence the difference between regular and cooled cameras is fast diminishing as we generally end up doing image capture in winter months in the UK.

The other bit that you will need to consider is hardware & software to process your images. eg. PixInsight, Affinity Photo, Siril etc.

My approach to getting into AP was begin on a small budget hence started off imaging with an AstroMaster 130 mounted on a 2nd hand HEQ5 pro. The camera is the ASI224MC. Total spend less than £1000. See my link for details on what you can expect to image using this kit.

Edited June 27, 2022 by AstroMuni

[Swillis]

2 hours ago, lankywolf said:

I forgot the ball head to put the camera on the tracker as well

If you get the pro kit, which you will need to balance properly, the ball head may just add an extra point of flexibility into the setup. But it would give you flexibility in terms framing your target, and for a wide field, lightweight setup such as this may be ok??

I had forgotten to mention plate solving. This is something fairly high up on my list to add. I took several hours of images of the heart nebula only to find it was in the bottom left corner of the image. 🙃

@ollypenrice I think a lot of people find DSLRs as the 'easier' route into AP as they don't need anything extra other than an intervalometer to run them, and as a beginner the options (and cost) can be a little bewildering. If you have a DSLR then that is one less thing to learn (and budget for), so it becomes easier from that point of view and you can always build on what you have.  The equation changes quite a bit if you don't have a DSLR, and then maybe you are a little more inclined to make the right choice and go the astrocam route. Add in an ASIair and and it sounds like it becomes a relatively painless, quick and reliable process, not to mention plate solving. If only I had the budget to start this way...

@lankywolf I assume you don't already own a DSLR since you are considering buying one?

[ollypenrice]

2 hours ago, Swillis said:

 

@ollypenrice I think a lot of people find DSLRs as the 'easier' route into AP as they don't need anything extra other than an intervalometer to run them, and as a beginner the options (and cost) can be a little bewildering. If you have a DSLR then that is one less thing to learn (and budget for), so it becomes easier from that point of view and you can always build on what you have.  The equation changes quite a bit if you don't have a DSLR, and then maybe you are a little more inclined to make the right choice and go the astrocam route. Add in an ASIair and and it sounds like it becomes a relatively painless, quick and reliable process, not to mention plate solving. If only I had the budget to start this way...

 

 

When I started photographing the night sky some fifteen years ago I followed the advice of Ian King, now associated with FLO, and went straight into mono CCD with a short FL refractor, autoduided from the start. This is not the standard advice but Ian King was not a standard imager. Even though I had no IT skills (and believe me, nobody today has so few IT skills today as I had fifteen years ago) I was soon up and running. And I was not up and running down a blind alley, which is how a number of my guests have described DSLR imaging.

Using an astro camera is easy. I sometimes wonder if those urging that it's complicated have ever actually used one. I know of only one imager who has gone back to DSLR from CCD (now call that CMOS) and that's Maurice Toet, who is very expert indeed, who uses the screamingly fast optics of a Takahashi Epsilon and who wanted a PC-free mobile system. But here's the thing: Maurice has the expertise to make it work. My argument is that this requires more expertise, not less, to compete with CCD/CMOS.

A screwdriver is a simpler tool than a chisel... until you need to use a chisel. At this point a chisel becomes simpler than a screwdriver.

Olly

[catburglar]

If I was in your position I think I would definitely go down the dedicated astro cam route- it’s the right tool for the job not a tool that’s being coerced into being something it’s not…

Set point cooling makes calibration easier, the chip is likely to be smaller so flats and tilt are easier to deal with and QE is likely to be higher and noise lower than a DSLR so you get more SNR in any  given set of exposures, and then there’s the whole mono vs colour time advantage…

Processing (relatively) poor quality data from a DSLR may not be the best training for processing good quality data from a dedicated astro cam. Whereas time spent learning and perfecting focus, guiding, image calibration etc is always going to be useful.

[WolfieGlos]

I’ve recently been through a similar route, having started nearly a year ago, although I started off with a stock DSLR and a few lenses. I still use these so can’t comment on the Astro camera route, but that is probably my next decision on expenditure; modified dslr or Astro camera. 

I started with the Star Adventurer 2i, and still use it, and the only thing I would add is that if the Samyang lens doesn’t come with a lens collar then definitely get one, as that will allow you to rotate the camera and frame your target. I would then mount it onto the Star Adventurer L bracket, and don’t bother with a ball head as it will always move even slightly. 

I then added guiding to my setup, and recently a short refractor, the skywatcher 72ED, and it works great (collimating issues aside). Depending on the size of scope you eventually want to upgrade to, you don’t necessarily need to upgrade the mount; it’ll work fine for longer lenses and small scopes * with guiding I would add * 

The weakest part of my setup now is the K&F camera tripod I have; it’s rated, apparently, for 25kg but it wobbles like jelly when higher than 1 (of 3) click of the legs. It means I’m currently kneeling on a gardeners knee mat to polar align etc, so maybe look at getting the skywatcher tripod which you can buy with the Star Adventurer, it will be a lot more stable from the outset and will be better suited for a scope in due course. 

[900SL]

If you think there is a chance of upgrading to a goto mount and astrocam at some point in future, don't bother with the DSLR and SWSA. 

I had a SWSA2 /Nikon D5600. Once I added in various brackets and accessories I was well over a grand spent. I would have been better off going straight to a go to mount and dedicated camera.

[Elp]

Brackets and accessories are a hidden cost not often considered.