Altair Wave Series 125 EDF F7.8 APO

[ukskies]

Hi everyone, a few weeks ago you helped me decide that my decision to save for a Tak FC100DZ was a good one and I'm currently saving for that purchase when I spot this very high spec 125mm refractor.

My question is which would be the better visual scope, would any of you consider taking the Altair over the Takahashi and if so why?

[Franklin]

Both would be superb for visual but the Takahashi has more class.

[Same old newbie alert]

They say once you have a Tak you don't go back

Wouldn't personally know thou..

Its worth a mention that the scope will have several different labels, like from TS products, Technosky.. the Altair might have a different focuser than the others... 

[Deadlake]

If you are considering a 100 DZ the below scope is within your budget

https://astrograph.net/epages/www_astrograph_net.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/www_astrograph_net/Products/AGTEC130-7

This is cheaper marginally then the Tak, however it has a minimum Strehl of 0.95, meaning due to seeing etc I don’t think you will be visually able to tell the difference with a lens with a higher Strehl number, however flourite lens appear brighter to the eye.

Also you will see more stars through a 5” compared to the 4”.

I have both doublets and triplets and really apart from weight I don’t really see cool-down as an argument to go for the doublet.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Deadlake

[mikeDnight]

I believe the DZ to be the best doublet 100mm refractor currently in production. It truly is a superb instrument and punches way above its aperture class both in percieved brightness and in magnification range. 500X without breaking into a sweat on double stars, and perfect star images. And Tak do have a faithful following for a reason, their optic's by Canon Optron are legendary. The DZ is so easy to mount and use it could easily wear you out.

Technosky on the other hand has the advantage of aperture, which at 125mm for their doublet and 130mm for the triplet is a noticeable jump in image brightness. It's still highly possible that despite the aperture increase and resolution, that the DZ could deliver the better planetary view..  If I were to choose between the 125 doublet and 130 triplet I'd go for the doublet. Cool down will be noticeably faster in the doublet, being around 15 mins on a cold night, while the triplet can take 45 mins for the triplet. The Technosky may also have the better focuser. Tak focusers, although very good, are old school rack and pinion - excellent but no frills.

Edited April 10, 2022 by mikeDnight

[ukskies]

1 hour ago, Franklin said:

Both would be superb for visual but the Takahashi has more class.

I always wanted a Takahashi because I believe the quality of the lens would be very hard to beat and the FC100DZ does indeed look very classy.

[ukskies]

1 hour ago, Same old newbie alert said:

They say once you have a Tak you don't go back

Wouldn't personally know thou..

Its worth a mention that the scope will have several different labels, like from TS products, Technosky.. the Altair might have a different focuser than the others... 

Yes thanks for ypour input I just saw the Altair one as being already in the UK tbh.

[ukskies]

1 hour ago, Deadlake said:

If you are considering a 100 DZ the below scope is within your budget

https://astrograph.net/epages/www_astrograph_net.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/www_astrograph_net/Products/AGTEC130-7

This is cheaper marginally then the Tak, however it has a minimum Strehl of 0.95, meaning due to seeing etc I don’t think you will be visually able to tell the difference with a lens with a higher Strehl number, however flourite lens appear brighter to the eye.

Also you will see more stars through a 5” compared to the 4”.

I have both doublets and triplets and really apart from weight I don’t really see cool-down as an argument to go for the doublet.

Hi and thanks but I really want a doublet and as this scope is very close in price to the FC 100DZ I would take the Tak if I'm honest

[ukskies]

17 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

I believe the DZ to be the best doublet 100mm refractor currently in production. It truly is a superb instrument and punches way above its aperture class both in percieved brightness and in magnification range. 500X without breaking into a sweat on double stars, and perfect star images. And Tak do have a faithful following for a reason, their optic's by Canon Optron are legendary. The DZ is so easy to mount and use it could easily wear you out.

Technosky on the other hand has the advantage of aperture, which at 125mm for their doublet and 130mm for the triplet is a noticeable jump in image brightness. It's still highly possible that despite the aperture increase and resolution, that the DZ could deliver the better planetary view..  If I were to choose between the 125 doublet and 130 triplet I'd go for the doublet. Cool down will be noticeably faster in the doublet, being around 15 mins on a cold night, while the triplet can take 45 mins for the triplet. The Technosky may also have the better focuser. Tak focusers, although very good, are old school rack and pinion - excellent but no frills.

Hi and thank you. I'm completely in agreement with all of your points, the focusser is a big reason to look at these scopes. The Altair one comes with a huge 3.7 inch one which I dont need tbh but a also a test report with a guaranteed strehl of .95.

I imagine the Tak will still have a much better strehl, polish and figure however and is also lighter.

My thinking is that if the 125 was the equal of the Tak for purely visual then I could have the £1200 difference to spend on some other things like nice eyepieces. I'm having to save carefully for the Tak but the 125 doublet is undoubtedly more affordable. If I'm honest I am still leaning toward the FC100DZ but looking for a good reason to buy the 125 as it looks such terrific value.

[Deadlake]

54 minutes ago, ukskies said:

I imagine the Tak will still have a much better strehl, polish and figure however and is also lighter.

You will never know unless you have the Takahashi tested. 

The point is that unless you are moving to say the Atacama Desert you will never see any benefit from having higher the 0.95 Strehl... 

1 hour ago, mikeDnight said:

Technosky on the other hand has the advantage of aperture, which at 125mm for their doublet and 130mm for the triplet is a noticeable jump in image brightness. It's still highly possible that despite the aperture increase and resolution, that the DZ could deliver the better planetary view..

I will always take the 5" out due to this, even if the 4" is so much portable. Your eyes will thank you for the extra aperture...

[mikeDnight]

11 hours ago, ukskies said:

Hi and thank you. I'm completely in agreement with all of your points, the focusser is a big reason to look at these scopes. The Altair one comes with a huge 3.7 inch one which I dont need tbh but a also a test report with a guaranteed strehl of .95.

I imagine the Tak will still have a much better strehl, polish and figure however and is also lighter.

My thinking is that if the 125 was the equal of the Tak for purely visual then I could have the £1200 difference to spend on some other things like nice eyepieces. I'm having to save carefully for the Tak but the 125 doublet is undoubtedly more affordable. If I'm honest I am still leaning toward the FC100DZ but looking for a good reason to buy the 125 as it looks such terrific value.

I'd imagine the Tak would pull ahead at very high power, but how often will you ever need 500X? And over the last 20 years the gap between scopes like Tak and Astrophysics has closed dramatically, so you would not be buying the poorer cousins as it were if you bought a Technosky.

[nicoscy]

I have a Tak FS-102 NSV and the Astro-Tech 125EDL (more or less same to the Altair version). Unless you are under the most impressively dark skies and possess a keen eye, it comes down to 7.854 sq. mm Vs 12,272 sq. mm surface lens area.

As I have found from my own testing, the AT bests the Tak easily for looking at dim stuff. One does not simply ignore 1.5x light gathering capability. Physics is physics!

I haven't had the chance to do a side by side at high powers though - Been up to 110x on doubles but that (for both scopes) is just scratching the surface. 

But, if I had to pick one, for sentimental reasons, because it's easier to set up in terms of needing a lighter mount and tripod, and because I just love the scope, I'd keep the Tak.

Also, the missus would kill me if I sold the Tak as it bears her name 😬

Edited April 11, 2022 by nicoscy

[Deadlake]

Indeed it is all physics, side by side these two scopes from APM, the 5" shows more stars/planetary detail than the 4". 

I suspect I'll never have the seeing to tell the difference between the Vixen 4" I have and the APM 4", the APM lens is brighter due to the glass used, is more compact if heavier.

[cajen2]

3 hours ago, nicoscy said:

 

Also, the missus would kill me if I sold the Tak as it bears her name 😬

Your Tak is called Cynthia??? 😄

[Stu]

17 hours ago, Deadlake said:

I have both doublets and triplets and really apart from weight I don’t really see cool-down as an argument to go for the doublet.

That totally depends on where you are able to store it. Out of a warm house a 130mm triplet takes a significant time to cool down (45 mins to an hour), far longer than 100mm doublet. If storing in a cool shed or garage then it’s much less of an issue as you say so the context is important and is lacking in your statement.

To the OP @ukskies I don’t think you can compare an FC100DZ with the 125mm f7.8, they are different class scopes in size, weight, mounting requirements etc. I love my DC for its portability, quick cool down and amazing performance across a number of different targets (solar, lunar, doubles, widefield). It gets used a heck of a lot because it’s so easy to use. The 125mm will show you more and will split tighter doubles, more detail on the Moon etc but needs more effort to setup and a larger mount. I’m sure they are very good scopes so I think the decision is based on what class (ie aperture, weight etc) of scope you want to handle.

A 130mm triplet will take the weight and cooling time up even further so it depends on your observing routines ie do you do a lot of quick grab and go sessions, or maybe fewer but long sessions where it’s worth setting up the large mount and scope.

Horses for courses as they say.

[nicoscy]

3 hours ago, cajen2 said:

Your Tak is called Cynthia??? 😄

My Tak is a lady, like all my scopes. Her name is Mira (O-Ceti) !

[cajen2]

20 minutes ago, nicoscy said:

My Tak is a lady, like all my scopes. Her name is Mira (O-Ceti) !

Ok.......😉

[cajen2]

Should be a reflector with a name like that!  😆

[mikeDnight]

49 minutes ago, nicoscy said:

My Tak is a lady, like all my scopes. Her name is Mira (O-Ceti) !

I'm glad you clarified that. I was beginning to think your good ladies parents were very mean naming their daughter FS-102 NSV. 

[mikeDnight]

I think budget comes into play too. If budget was no problem, I'd have no hesitation to say get a Tak TSA 120, or even a TAO 130 if you could carry it and afford a mount to carry it. If budget is of concern, I'd grab the 125 Technosky and never look back.. However if you're looking for an easy to carry/mount that's top tier the DZ is the a dream scope. 

 

[JeremyS]

Didn’t somebody say that the rules of physics don’t apply to Tak scopes?

[cajen2]

Ye cannae change the laws o' physics, Captain! 😛

[mikeDnight]

1 hour ago, JeremyS said:

Didn’t somebody say that the rules of physics don’t apply to Tak scopes?

I've no idea who that might have been. 

25 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

Ye cannae change the laws o' physics, Captain! 😛

That depends on whether you live in this universe, or the Takiverse.  

 🇯🇵 

[ukskies]

5 hours ago, Stu said:

That totally depends on where you are able to store it. Out of a warm house a 130mm triplet takes a significant time to cool down (45 mins to an hour), far longer than 100mm doublet. If storing in a cool shed or garage then it’s much less of an issue as you say so the context is important and is lacking in your statement.

To the OP @ukskies I don’t think you can compare an FC100DZ with the 125mm f7.8, they are different class scopes in size, weight, mounting requirements etc. I love my DC for its portability, quick cool down and amazing performance across a number of different targets (solar, lunar, doubles, widefield). It gets used a heck of a lot because it’s so easy to use. The 125mm will show you more and will split tighter doubles, more detail on the Moon etc but needs more effort to setup and a larger mount. I’m sure they are very good scopes so I think the decision is based on what class (ie aperture, weight etc) of scope you want to handle.

A 130mm triplet will take the weight and cooling time up even further so it depends on your observing routines ie do you do a lot of quick grab and go sessions, or maybe fewer but long sessions where it’s worth setting up the large mount and scope.

Horses for courses as they say.

Hi and thanks. Herein lies my problem in a nutshell.

Portability is an issue but I'm not sure in my current circumstances that it means the 125 wouldn't be portable.

I live in a small town and our garden is rather small and very light polluted. I also have a very limited view of the sky. This means I invariably travel to use any scope. The big dob is awesome and on better nights the lunar detail is quite stunning but it takes a lot of effort to get it in the car and set it up once at my observing site, then cool down is a problem when the temps are dropping fast. Also after observing it's do it all in reverse. It can be tedious especially when just as the mirror is getting to temperature the clouds roll over and then having to pack up without getting even a quick look. This has happened twice a half hour from home at a very dark site. Local weather in the Welsh hills changes quickly.

I'm going to have more time on my hands at the end of this month as I'm going down to part time working also we are thinking of buying a motorhome soon too. The thought of parking up somewhere dark, setting up an Apo refractor and just observing without all the current effort would mean much more time at the eyepiece. In these circumstances the 125 wouldn't be much more effort than the 100 but then there's that Takahshi factor.

I first looked though one a long time ago and I had the impression of diamonds on black velvet and simply beautiful views of the moon. the crater shadows were jet black and the surface details were just so easy to see. I knew very little about astronomy back then but that lunar view was just beautiful. Ever since then I've wanted a Tak.

I don't have an unlimited budget tho so in reality the 125 doublet with it's massive saving has to be considered. I think the mount would need careful consideration tho.

[ukskies]

2 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

I think budget comes into play too. If budget was no problem, I'd have no hesitation to say get a Tak TSA 120, or even a TAO 130 if you could carry it and afford a mount to carry it. If budget is of concern, I'd grab the 125 Technosky and never look back.. However if you're looking for an easy to carry/mount that's top tier the DZ is the a dream scope. 

 

Yes, thanks, budget is an issue and I would love the DZ I'm quite sure but the 125 is so much more affordable.