Altair Wave Series 125 EDF F7.8 APO

[ukskies]

11 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

I'd imagine the Tak would pull ahead at very high power, but how often will you ever need 500X? And over the last 20 years the gap between scopes like Tak and Astrophysics has closed dramatically, so you would not be buying the poorer cousins as it were if you bought a Technosky.

Now this another point. I know everyone who owns a Tak doublet loves their scope, there's a few on here and you will all happily recommend the FC100 to anyone and everyone. This doesn't seem to be quite the case with these other refractors. 

I'm still undecided which to go for. The Altair 125 looks  terrific and is a 5" class scope and the Tak is much more expensive and only a 4" class scope but it's a Takahashi. If the two scopes were the same aperture the Tak would be my choice without question but does that extra aperture make up for what may be slightly less quality glass?

[ukskies]

I believe there's a couple of 125 owners on here, how are you getting on with your scopes now in the longer term?

[mikeDnight]

3 hours ago, ukskies said:

Now this another point. I know everyone who owns a Tak doublet loves their scope, there's a few on here and you will all happily recommend the FC100 to anyone and everyone. This doesn't seem to be quite the case with these other refractors. 

I'm still undecided which to go for. The Altair 125 looks  terrific and is a 5" class scope and the Tak is much more expensive and only a 4" class scope but it's a Takahashi. If the two scopes were the same aperture the Tak would be my choice without question but does that extra aperture make up for what may be slightly less quality glass?

Hi Gary,

 I wouldn't hesitate to go for the 125mm if I were looking for a 5" class visual scope. It will certainly have greater resolution and light grasp than the FC100D. It will also very likely keep pace with the Tak in terms of definition and contrast, which is something refractors are legendary for, and I think it will utterly amaze you. I think that a 5" class ED refractor is the perfect compromise between aperture and portability and a very serious instrument. If that's what you feel you want then go for it otherwise you may harbour regrets in the future. Even though I've had a larger apo and much larger reflectors over the years, the scope I most regret selling was my Tak FS128. There's a big gain between 4" & 5" especially on deep sky, so again if you want a good all rounder, the 125mm makes more sense. If the moon and planets are your thing then the difference is not such a game changer, especially if you use a binoviewer. I've seen much more on the planet's with my DC and DZ while using a binoviewer than I ever saw through my FS128 while using a single eyepiece, so that's something worth considering as it would give a 125mm a serious performance boost too.

[johninderby]

3 hours ago, ukskies said:

I believe there's a couple of 125 owners on here, how are you getting on with your scopes now in the longer term?

Still happy with mine. As mentioned above shows more than a 4” frac. The only reason for going for a 4” Tak is portability as they are very light weight.

When used for solar white light with a wedge gives fantastic views. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[nicoscy]

Agree with others recommending a 5" class.

If there is no issue in terms of the extra weight, size and mounting requirements, then go for the 5"!

[Voyager 3]

10 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

Didn’t somebody say that the rules of physics don’t apply to Tak scopes?

I've no idea who that might have been.

 

 🇯🇵 

And already I'm seeing an extrasolar system. 

Not to mention , all these from the opposite end .😎

 

So yeah , taks seem to break the laws of physics.

 

[dweller25]

@ukskies
 

My FS128 shows more planetary detail than my 100DZ but the DZ is so much easier to setup and cool down.

I also have a Mewlon 180 which because it is short is VERY comfortable to use. It’s very close in performance to the FS128 and has superb contrast - I really like it and I am a refractor guy ! but it NEEDS active thermal management - I use a fan.

Balancing performance, cooling and ease of use/setup I would put them in this order

1. 100DZ

2. Mewlon 180

3. FS128

I have a bad back that plays a major part in this assessment. 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by dweller25

[paulastro]

7 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

Hi Gary,

 I wouldn't hesitate to go for the 125mm if I were looking for a 5" class visual scope. It will certainly have greater resolution and light grasp than the FC100D. It will also very likely keep pace with the Tak in terms of definition and contrast, which is something refractors are legendary for, and I think it will utterly amaze you. I think that a 5" class ED refractor is the perfect compromise between aperture and portability and a very serious instrument. If that's what you feel you want then go for it otherwise you may harbour regrets in the future. Even though I've had a larger apo and much larger reflectors over the years, the scope I most regret selling was my Tak FS128. There's a big gain between 4" & 5" especially on deep sky, so again if you want a good all rounder, the 125mm makes more sense. If the moon and planets are your thing then the difference is not such a game changer, especially if you use a binoviewer. I've seen much more on the planet's with my DC and DZ while using a binoviewer than I ever saw through my FS128 while using a single eyepiece, so that's something worth considering as it would give a 125mm a serious performance boost too.

Mike, if you had used a binoviewer when you had the FS128, I'm sure it would have given  better planetary views than your DC and DZ do with a binoviewer.  

[nicoscy]

1 minute ago, dweller25 said:

@ukskies
 

My FS128 shows more planetary detail than my 100DZ but the DZ is so much easier to setup and cool down.

I also have a Mewlon 180 which because it is short is VERY comfortable to use. It’s very close in performance to the FS128 and has superb contrast - I really like it and I am a refractor guy ! but it NEEDS active thermal management - I use a fan.

Balancing performance, cooling and ease of use/setup I would put them in this order

1. 100DZ

2. Mewlon 180

3. FS128

I have a bad back that plays a major part in this assessment. 

 

Had both FS128 and Mewlon 180; and have a bad back - and your comments are spot on sir!

[ukskies]

Thank you everyone for your helpful posts, I'm still undecided though. I do have plenty of time to mull this over as both scopes in question are currently out of stock and I'm still trying to fund the purchase.

[nicoscy]

Gary,

There's no right or wrong decision here. 

I am sure both scopes would be equally pleasing to use, each with its strengths and weaknesses

[ukskies]

7 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

Hi Gary,

 I wouldn't hesitate to go for the 125mm if I were looking for a 5" class visual scope. It will certainly have greater resolution and light grasp than the FC100D. It will also very likely keep pace with the Tak in terms of definition and contrast, which is something refractors are legendary for, and I think it will utterly amaze you. I think that a 5" class ED refractor is the perfect compromise between aperture and portability and a very serious instrument. If that's what you feel you want then go for it otherwise you may harbour regrets in the future. Even though I've had a larger apo and much larger reflectors over the years, the scope I most regret selling was my Tak FS128. There's a big gain between 4" & 5" especially on deep sky, so again if you want a good all rounder, the 125mm makes more sense. If the moon and planets are your thing then the difference is not such a game changer, especially if you use a binoviewer. I've seen much more on the planet's with my DC and DZ while using a binoviewer than I ever saw through my FS128 while using a single eyepiece, so that's something worth considering as it would give a 125mm a serious performance boost too.

As a DZ owner I'm obviously very interested in your views Mike and I hear what you are saying, I'm still right on the fence here tough. My heart want's the FC100 DZ and my head want's the 125.

Maybe I should consider the mount weight too?

[nicoscy]

Gary, I use a Noh's CT30 mount for the 125. The CT-20 has been tested by others on the APM 6" scope and found just fine - I got the CT30 just because.

For the FS-102, I use the Stellarvue M2C is perfectly capable for a 4" class scope.

There are many options and while I do realize that there is a budget, if you do not have a decent mount and tripod, you will not enjoy the scope.

Then there is the Rowan AZ100 and soon the AZ75.

 

Options galore...

[mikeDnight]

1 hour ago, paulastro said:

Mike, if you had used a binoviewer when you had the FS128, I'm sure it would have given  better planetary views than your DC and DZ do with a binoviewer.  

No! Unfortunately the FS128 and the FS152 were before my binoviewer days. Of the scopes I currently own, the 150mm Edmund achromat blows the rest out of the water as regards detail on the moon, especially with a binoviewer. Even my 60mm vintage Carton Comet Seeker gives terrific views with a BV. But the 100mm DZ has undeniably the better optics and gives the most aesthetically pleasing views. 

[mikeDnight]

1 hour ago, ukskies said:

As a DZ owner I'm obviously very interested in your views Mike and I hear what you are saying, I'm still right on the fence here tough. My heart want's the FC100 DZ and my head want's the 125.

Maybe I should consider the mount weight too?

Because I'm primarily a lunar and planetary observer I wanted an equatorial, and have used an old second hand Vixen GP with my FC's from the start. That old mount would carry even a 6" refractor with ease given a strong enough tripod. But I also like to sweep at low power, and use a cheap as chips AZ4. So I've nothing really that fancy in the mount department, and both are lightweight and can be carried, including tripod, with one arm. 

I really like the look of Nicos suggestion of mounts, and in particular the Noh's with its slow motion controls. I wish I hadn't looked at those!

[nicoscy]

Mike,

Noh's mounts don't have sol-mo controls. Those are tension knobs. But, balance the mount well and it glides with a gentle touch of a finger.

[Deadlake]

14 hours ago, ukskies said:

I live in a small town and our garden is rather small and very light polluted. I also have a very limited view of the sky. This means I invariably travel to use any scope. The big dob is awesome and on better nights the lunar detail is quite stunning but it takes a lot of effort to get it in the car and set it up once at my observing site, then cool down is a problem when the temps are dropping fast. Also after observing it's do it all in reverse. It can be tedious especially when just as the mirror is getting to temperature the clouds roll over and then having to pack up without getting even a quick look. This has happened twice a half hour from home at a very dark site. Local weather in the Welsh hills changes quickly.

The 4" is so much easier to get out for sure, however the 5" is more rewarding and being able grab a one hour session without thermal cooling makes for best use of time. 

Maybe a 115-120 mm would be a compromise?

You've touched on mounting, maybe the weight of the mount should guide you?

Any scope over 6 kg starts to rule out a lot of mobile mounts if that's important to you.

[paulastro]

2 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

No! Unfortunately the FS128 and the FS152 were before my binoviewer days. Of the scopes I currently own, the 150mm Edmund achromat blows the rest out of the water as regards detail on the moon, especially with a binoviewer. Even my 60mm vintage Carton Comet Seeker gives terrific views with a BV. But the 100mm DZ has undeniably the better optics and gives the most aesthetically pleasing views. 

Mike, I knew already you didn't have a binoviewer when you had the FS128 and FS152.  That's  the point I was making - it's not really a fair comparison when one is used with a binoviewer and the other without.

Edited April 12, 2022 by paulastro

[mikeDnight]

2 hours ago, nicoscy said:

Mike,

Noh's mounts don't have sol-mo controls. Those are tension knobs. But, balance the mount well and it glides with a gentle touch of a finger.

Thanks for that Nicos. They still look like very nice mounts. ☺

[nicoscy]

Indeed they are - lightweight, allows for mounting two scopes and can handle easily large refractors!

[Deadlake]

There is a review of the Noh mount here:

https://www.cloudynights.com/articles/cat/user-reviews/field-test-the-noh-ct-20-alt-az-mount-r3313

I was tempted however slow mo comes up, then then AZ75 as well.

I find tracking mounts better on the moon where any vibration causes wobble it degraded max magnification I can use. 
 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Deadlake

[Deadlake]

2 minutes ago, nicoscy said:

Indeed they are - lightweight, allows for mounting two scopes and can handle easily large refractors!

Are there encoders for these mounts at all?

[nicoscy]

Slow Mo are always nice to have. If the mount balances well and is on a solid tripod, wobble is much reduced.

The AZ75 does not have slow motion controls though, does it?

As for encoders, the CT mounts have been tested with it - but you need to contact the owner of the business as per the feedback he gave me:

"The encoder in the video you sent is mine.
 I asked my acquaintance to test it.
It wasn't bad, but the price was quite high."

His name is Jeong and his email is nohsmount@gmail.com. See video here.

 

[nicoscy]

The AZ75 does have the encoders "properly" installed and not as an afterthought, so if you need encoders, the AZ75 is a better proposition.

However, even without encoders probably quite more expensive, but it looks like a quality piece of kit, that's for sure!

[Stu]

1 hour ago, Deadlake said:

The 4" is so much easier to get out for sure, however the 5" is more rewarding and being able grab a one hour session without thermal cooling makes for best use of time. 

Can we just be clear here that a 5” triplet does require a substantial amount of cooling if taken out from a warm house. Martin stores his in a garage so does not require substantial cool-down time. I know from experience with a similar scope that 45 mins to an hour is required taking the scope out from the house in to cold conditions.

The 125mm doublet would need less I’m sure, and if travelling in a car to a dark site it would have time to cool to a certain level in the boot before arrival.

I think for the OP, the 125mm would be perfectly practical to transport around to darker skies in a car.  I was more bothered about having a triplet because my scope is f6. I would have been happy with a doublet for a slower scope, and in some ways a doublet can be preferable for visual. An FS128 was high up on my list and in many ways the 125mm is a modern day version of that, albeit without the Fluorite element and Tak ‘magic’.

The mount is important as has been mentioned, so if budget is going to limit what you can get then that is a consideration. I guess you could likely get the 125mm f7.8 and something like an AZ75 for a similar price to the FC100DZ without mount and that would be a setup which I’m sure you would get plenty of pleasure from.