Help - RPI4 running Stellarmate OS - what ccd is compatible under £250 with ekos/kstars

[uk_friendly_fire]

Ok first time out on this board and first time with RPI and Stellarmate OS controlling Skywatcher AZ GTi mount (working). 

In need of specialist help.

Got a T7c clone of ASI120mc (USB2.0) that refuses to work.

Need help to be able to image brighter planets and DSO's. Cannot upgrade firmware using ASI updater as Windows gives a strange "side-by side error" and links to how to solve it don't work.  Reasoned must be able to do it in Stellarmate, but updater is not self installing/executing driver installation like Windows 10.

No idea how to upgrade in Linux as I'm not familiar with Linux os -  SO REALLY STUCK.

Days spent trying to unravel this problem but no go - getting depressed - will I ever be able to an image of a heavenly body?

Maybe the answer is to get another CCD that wont break my bank account that works. By the way I'm a pensioner and need to put to use the kit I already purchased to keep the wife happy - but just one more purchase has been negotiated.

Can anyone tell me what hardware will work on this os or how to fix the T7c firmware in baby steps?

[wimvb]

23 minutes ago, uk_friendly_fire said:

Maybe the answer is to get another CCD that wont break my bank account that works.

Very likely your best option. I've googled around and found very little usefull data on this camera. As you wrote, it's a zwo copy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that zwo drivers are compatible. I found one quick guide that refers to zwo drivers and sharpcap, but there's no guarantee that it will work with anything else.

Here's info on how to update the zwo driver on a Stellarmate device. This is done from a command line interface.

https://www.indilib.org/ccds/zwo-optics-asi-cameras.html

[rnobleeddy]

There are numerous issues reported with the zwo usb2.0 cameras on Linux. Some people reported success with different firmware, but I just swapped for a usb3.0 model.

[uk_friendly_fire]

Many thanks to you both for your help - it seems another dip in the bank balance is needed. Hopefully I can revive my interest in completing this project which is so tantalizingly close to fulfilment. 

That YouTuber going by the name of "Lazy Geek" made it look so simple - but it that it isn't.

Plus somehow I accidentally  implemented 35 updates and all the windows/menus have changed and no longer look familiar - it's just like starting afresh again, but at least I know the camera is duff on Linux.

Can anyone tell me if the SV Bony 305Pro will work on Stellarmate OS?

[alacant]

5 hours ago, uk_friendly_fire said:

Got a T7c

Hi

The t7c works well under Linux. You need to upgrade to this firmware.

The same upgrade works also for older zwo models.

HTH

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by alacant

[uk_friendly_fire]

This sounds intriguing but I don't know how to install the firmware in Linux. I used the commands suggested in Wim's link but the terminal rejected the commands the responses meaning nothing to me. 

This is ironical as I was a Windows System Builder running a spare time business 10 years ago yet I have no idea where to start installing firmware in Stellarmate OS.

As I'm real Linux newbie I need simple step by step process from start to finish.

I imagine this is a big ask.

[rickwayne]

There may be a category error here. Wim's link is for INDI drivers for the camera from which yours was copied, i.e., the software that mediates between generic camera commands to the INDI platform running on Linux and the specific data to be sent over the USB wire to your camera to make it happen. For example "open the shutter" might be part of the standard INDI command set, but different cameras might expect completely different characters coming over the USB link to make that happen.

The camera's firmware is the stuff internal to the camera which actually runs it. It's stored in non-volatile memory on chips inside the camera. Updating that is completely manufacturer-dependent, invariably it is done with a bespoke program from the vendor, often as not only provided for a single platform.

I mean no disrespect to your choices, and I get that you're not working with James Webb-size budgets here. But the 120MC -- I own one, as it happens -- is going to be a pretty challenging imaging camera for a beginner. The chip is tiny, so the field of view is too, which exacerbates all kinds of beginner problems such as finding the target in the first place. For planets (and here I am talking well outside my area of experience), a tiny chip is fine because the planet's image is too. For deep sky, not so much -- a tiny field of view is pretty much the same as saying "huge magnification" for visual. Every tiny flaw in your mount's tracking, polar alignment, wind blowing on the rig, trucks driving by...all of that will conspire to make it hard to get sharp images. It's why we so often counsel beginners to start with a small wide-field refractor, they're much more forgiving while you're learning the craft. (It's not as big a deal for planets because they're brilliantly sunlit objects, so long exposure times aren't needed.)

Do you have a DSLR or interchangeable-lens compact, by any chance? For deep-sky, that would be a better choice IMO. Not to despair about the T7c, if you ever do get it working it'll make a great little guide camera (that's what I use my 120MC for).

[uk_friendly_fire]

9 hours ago, rickwayne said:

Do you have a DSLR or interchangeable-lens compact, by any chance? For deep-sky, that would be a better choice IMO. Not to despair about the T7c, if you ever do get it working it'll make a great little guide camera (that's what I use my 120MC for).

I have an unmodified Nikon D5300 which should do. I didn't expect much from my T7c in imaging, just for it to work!

For me this project was a proof of concept for ROBOSCOPE - a simple portable mount with a light weight scope and imaging camera that can be plonked at the bottom of the garden (or set up when on caravan trips away) and controlled remotely to view and image from indoors.

Project milestones so far:

Passed - tripod - portable Skywatcher tripod

Passed - mount - Skywatcher AZ GTi

Passed - wireless hardware - Canakit 8Gb RPI4

Passed - integrated software control - Stellarmate (although seemingly complicated and unfriendly in use)

Passed - lightweight scope - Skywatcher Evoguide ED50

FAILED BADLY - imaging component - T7c (ASI120mc USB2.0 clone)

This is so frustrating as all the Skywatcher kit and T7c work under Windows wired connection but require me outside.

Might have to change my user name to Always_hardwired.

[wimvb]

9 hours ago, rickwayne said:

if you ever do get it working

That's why I suggested biting the proverbial bullet and get a camera from a main stream manufacturer.

10 hours ago, uk_friendly_fire said:

somehow I accidentally  implemented 35 updates and all the windows/menus have changed and no longer look familiar

I advise against updating the linux software during an imaging season. The situation and stability of software has improved tremendously since I started usin INDI, but new updates can still break things, or, as in your case, at least upset a functioning workflow. There are just too few clear nights to have to struggle with software issues that weren't there before an update. This is not just a Linux issue. Windows systems are just as prone to fail after an update. Because single board computers are so cheap, I always have a backup system ready. If I update software on one, and it doesn't work as expected, I can just plug in another computer and continue imaging. You can also just have a duplicate sd card handy, but having a second computer is a good insurance against hardware failures.

[wimvb]

1 minute ago, uk_friendly_fire said:

This is so frustrating as all the Skywatcher kit and T7c work under Windows wired connection but require me outside.

Have you tried an RPi wired connection? Ie, using ethernet rather than wifi?

[wimvb]

4 minutes ago, uk_friendly_fire said:

Passed - integrated software control - Stellarmate (although seemingly complicated and unfriendly in use)

There certainly is a learning curve with Linux, but once you passed that, it works at least as good as more expensive Windows based systems. Only you can decide if the learning curve is worth it. For me it was, and I like the integration that INDI/Ekos or StellarMate offers. Does it work flawlessly every time? No. But neither does the more expensive Windows based SGPro package that a friend of mine uses.

[alacant]

14 hours ago, uk_friendly_fire said:

I need simple step by step

There is a file called:

readme

in the the folder in the link I sent.

Try doing what it says. Tell us which bit you can't do. 

Or just go along to a local astro club. They'll be happy to install the firmware for you.

Cheers

 

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by alacant

[uk_friendly_fire]

Wim - ethernet fails to meet my project requirement.

As regards Windows OS based software and kit the only hiccup was dropping wireless connections occasionally. The thing is the T7c manufacturer/seller stated works with Linux when it won't out of the box.

This influenced my product purchasing for my project. A case of caveat emptor 

It's been many years since I experienced hardware that did that with Windows. More expensive maybe, but it did what it said on the tin!

[StevieDvd]

Do the flash in Windows (select the Linux firmware file). It should then be OK for your Stellarmate use, no need to use a command in Linux.

 

[JamesF]

I thought the T7C was basically a direct copy of the ASI120MC and should accept the same firmware.  Out of interest, if you plug it in on the RPi and on the command line on the RPi run the command "lsusb", what is the output?

James

 

[wimvb]

1 hour ago, JamesF said:

run the command "lsusb", what is the output?

To clarify:

you will get a list of devices that are connected to the Pi, as well as the usb ports in the internal hub. There should be one entry for the t7c camera. If that says ”120”, the firmware should be identical to the asi120.

[JamesF]

1 minute ago, wimvb said:

To clarify:

you will get a list of devices that are connected to the Pi, as well as the usb ports in the internal hub. There should be one entry for the t7c camera. If that says ”120”, the firmware should be identical to the asi120.

Possibly more relevant are the USB Vendor and Product IDs that will show up in the list.  A genuine ASI 120MC I'd expect to show up as 03c3:120b (from memory).  If the T7C shows up differently then it may well be a non-starter on Linux, though I would probably try something horrible like hacking the ASI SDK to replace the embedded VID and PID with that of the T7C before giving up entirely.

James

[BCN_Sean]

I hacked mine to work with Linux the beginning of this year, I found that the firmware update from the ZWO site didn't work, but the firmware in this package did.  zwo_fwtool_usb2.zip

I can't remember which of the 120MC firmware I used on it now (I think it was the ASI120MC-compatible.iic in the bin->firmware folder, but try both for the 120MC), it needed the latest firmware updater from the ZWO website on an account with admin level privileges on Windows and if Windows popped up security questions they needed accepting as it would throw other issues on the Mac and also on Linux.

Also the other thing with these things is if that you plug them in to a USB 3 port they can cause some real headaches and need to be connected directly to a USB 2 port.

After that, it worked quite well most of the time, but occasionally it could have issues that made it untrustworthy for a full session; and I swapped it out for an Svbony 305

54 minutes ago, JamesF said:

Possibly more relevant are the USB Vendor and Product IDs that will show up in the list.  A genuine ASI 120MC I'd expect to show up as 03c3:120b (from memory).  If the T7C shows up differently then it may well be a non-starter on Linux, though I would probably try something horrible like hacking the ASI SDK to replace the embedded VID and PID with that of the T7C before giving up entirely.

Just plugged my T7C in and had a look, it identifies as "03c3:120b 03c3 ASI120MC" just missing the serial number; but that's with the firmware as flashed above.

[JamesF]

11 minutes ago, BCN_Sean said:

I can't remember which of the 120MC firmware I used on it now (I think it was the ASI120MC-compatible.iic in the bin->firmware folder, but try both for the 120MC), it needed the latest firmware updater from the ZWO website on an account with admin level privileges on Windows and if Windows popped up security questions they needed accepting as it would throw other issues on the Mac and also on Linux.

It's definitely the "compatible" version that's required.

Historically (by which I mean ten years or so back) there were a number of USB2 astro cameras including the ASI120 that attempted to improve their data transfer rates by breaking the USB specification (I have a vague recollection that the QHY5 did the same).  In fact, taking the specification literally, they really should not have been allowed to be sold as "USB" devices.  Under Windows, at the time, it worked because the Windows USB interface didn't necessarily question devices that claimed to work outside of the USB specification. Linux took a different approach in that it expected devices to conform to the USB specification however, and devices that stepped outside those bounds wouldn't always work.

The "compatible" firmware makes the camera conform to the spec.  It means slightly slower frame rates but with the benefit of reliability.

James

[uk_friendly_fire]

15 hours ago, StevieDvd said:

Do the flash in Windows (select the Linux firmware file). It should then be OK for your Stellarmate use, no need to use a command in Linux.

 

Windows returns "side by side error" and Zwo's link to solving it returns "PAGE 404 NOT FOUND" error. So stuck!

[uk_friendly_fire]

11 hours ago, BCN_Sean said:

I hacked mine to work with Linux the beginning of this year, I found that the firmware update from the ZWO site didn't work, but the firmware in this package did.  zwo_fwtool_usb2.z

I can download to Stellarmate, unzip the compressed file but the update app does not run when double clicked, so nothing is installed.

Am I trying to execute the updater incorrectly?

[alacant]

19 minutes ago, uk_friendly_fire said:

Am I trying to execute the updater incorrectly?

Yes.

Have a look at this post. The firmware indicated in this post has been tested and known to work with the t7c and t7m cameras. 

Connect your t7c to a usb 2 port. 

Next, navigate to the bin folder:

cd /whereever/you/downloaded/to/bin

Then it's simply:

cd armv7
$ ./zwo_FWTool_USB2 -i ../firmware/ASI120MC-compatible.iic -t li2c

That's it.

If you only know windows, then best to get a linux user to do it for you. It takes less than a minute. 

Cheers and HTH

Edited October 31, 2021 by alacant

[Paul M]

11 minutes ago, uk_friendly_fire said:

Windows returns "side by side error" and Zwo's link to solving it returns "PAGE 404 NOT FOUND" error. So stuck!

The side by side error seems to relate to installers and specifically the C++ Runtime package on the Windows machine. 

https://www.minitool.com/news/side-by-side-configuration-incorrect.html

 

[uk_friendly_fire]

On 30/10/2021 at 21:27, wimvb said:

To clarify:

you will get a list of devices that are connected to the Pi, as well as the usb ports in the internal hub. There should be one entry for the t7c camera. If that says ”120”, the firmware should be identical to the asi120.

Started VNc and command entered into desktop terminal app window. It returned the response bash: Isusb not found. Also tried this command in run window (found under file menu) with no response returned at all and window automatically closed.

But Stellarmate camera usb device window does confirm camera manufacturer as ASI120mc and indi ASI driver loaded and connected to Port No 2. 

It seems all to close to a solution but can't achieve the final steps to update this camera's firmware.

[StevieDvd]

As Paul M has noted there is a possible solution so you can run the firmware update in WIndows

 

See ZWO page here it says you need to have a VS2008 patch to run the updates to firmware. Worth a try.