Spotting scopes (for daytime / wildlife use) confusion

[jonathan]

Lately I've noticed the local bird-watching crowd have been mostly turning up with one brand of spotting scope - Swarowski - however they are expensive and, having owned a few decent budget scopes for astronomy purposes already, I'm wondering if anyone can offer up some real-world usage experience of the spotting scopes on offer by FLO compared to this much more expensive 'scope for life' brand.  I see there are offerings from Acuter (basically Skywatcher), Celestron (same ball park), Hawke, Helios, and Vortex Optics, but I have no idea about these brands when it comes to spotting scopes.

Advice was to try out a few different ones under cloudy conditions, much easier said than done especially at the moment (and when a lot will be out of stock anyway).  I am wondering what the practical difference will be between a spotting scope for £129 and one for £495, I know the 102 triplet I have for astronomy is good but I don't and have never owned a cheaper 102 for comparison, the nearest would be the 70mm Celestron Travel Scope which punches above it's weight IMO but is hardly a like for like comparison.  While I'm sure spending £2,500+ on a spotting scope will result in perhaps some of the best views and be a joy to use, I don't really want to spend that much right out of the bat as a starter to bird watching etc.

I'm thinking perhaps spend a few hundred on something that will be good enough for bright conditions, then later maybe upgrade to something capable of all lighting conditions (not really for astronomy use though).  Any particular recommendations?  Thanks.

[happy-kat]

What do you like about birdwatching.

Binoculars 8*42 or smaller let you quickly spot and follow a bird. A spotting scope is what I think of as useful if the target is well a sitting duck or far away and slow moving.

As you already have a travel scope I would get a 45° degree erecting diagonal and maybe even a zoom eyepiece to go with it and have a play with that.

[jonathan]

9 minutes ago, happy-kat said:

What do you like about birdwatching.

Binoculars 8*42 or smaller let you quickly spot and follow a bird. A spotting scope is what I think of as useful if the target is well a sitting duck or far away and slow moving.

As you already have a travel scope I would get a 45° degree erecting diagonal and maybe even a zoom eyepiece to go with it and have a play with that.

Already doing that with the 70mm Travel Scope, works quite nicely but I've the sneaky suspicion that those dedicated spotting scopes result in far sharper and higher contrast views, plus the Travel Scope just has the very basic rack and pinion focuser.  I'm not that good at holding binoculars steady, I have my father's genes to thank for that!

Spotting scopes can easily track a distant target if mounted on a good pan/tilt head, I have the Horizon heavy duty tripod (heavy being the operative word!) but it's much more than is necessary for a lightweight spotting scope.  I'm toying with the idea of giving my 102 triplet a go, but I'd have to buy a 45° degree erecting diagonal for it (fitting the cheap one I have would seem like an insult to the 102) and a tripod mount for the dovetail fitting.  Apparently the ideal spotting scope size is around a 65mm objective for portability and ease of use.

Bird watching is a daytime hobby one can do alone or in a group, in the warm dry conditions of spring and summer, it's also a thrill to see something with my own eyes (through optics) rather than in a nature programme, the same as being able to see a distant galaxy or nebula rather than a fancy picture in a book (which probably has false colours etc).

Edited June 10, 2021 by jonathan

[Alien 13]

Watching with interest, I have used my WO scope with a Celestron correct image diagonal and its OK but not great, the two main issues are that the eyepiece position moves when you focus so the range required between near and far can be several inches and the other is the lack of any decent correct image diagonals on the market.

Alan

[jonathan]

17 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

Watching with interest, I have used my WO scope with a Celestron correct image diagonal and its OK but not great, the two main issues are that the eyepiece position moves when you focus so the range required between near and far can be several inches and the other is the lack of any decent correct image diagonals on the market.

Alan

I know it's a bit pricey compared to others but have you any idea on the quality of this William Optics erecting diagonal for daytime use?  I'm not sure how much difference the diagonal quality makes for daytime observing of birds etc.

[jonathan]

From just reading a few articles and reviews it seems that ED is highly desirable to cut down colour fringing and such, and a magnification range between 20x - 60x (for an 80mm objective this would be 8mm - 24mm eyepiece) to make it worthwhile, otherwise use binoculars.

Those criteria should help me to cut down the number of models I'd want to look at, and I do like the idea of having standard 1.25" eyepiece fitting as that allows me to use my existing astronomy eyepiece collection.  It seems that many of the more expensive brands tie you into their own ecosystem with bespoke eyepiece fittings, more money for them I suppose.

Also, as much as a 50~65 objective scope would be lightweight, it seems that the 80mm objective scopes have greater potential for light gathering and thus a greater light condition range, but only when coupled with good multi-coated optics (hence opting only for models with ED glass, which I think usually will come with those good quality lens coatings for higher light transmission).

There are some scope speficiations that I don't understand or can't yet relate to though, such as a few listing with this Celestron Regal M2 80ED including the angular field of view (how does this translate to the real world when looking at a distant treeline?), Relative Brightness - totally meaningless to me, Twilight Factor - again, what does this figure actually relate to in terms of being able to see a bird at distance?  Such as how it relates to lighting conditions given a clear sky at a specific date and time at my latitude (NE England).  Any real-world advice on these would be much appreciated.

Just looking at the Acuter GrandVista, I see it comes with a rubber-armoured body but I'm not so sure that I like that, I would prefer a straight forward metal casing as in my experience rubber coatings tend to degrade over time, especially with exposure to UV (even if it always has the soft case fitted, the rubber coating will likely still degrade albeit at a slower rate).  This is a shame as this combined with the requirement for ED glass effectively eliminates the entire Acuter range.

The Helios Fieldmaster Triplet is looking like a good contender at the moment, although it doesn't look like it accepts 1.25" eyepieces this shouldn't be a deal-breaker if the supplied zoom eyepiece works well (and others available).

Edited June 11, 2021 by jonathan

[Alien 13]

39 minutes ago, jonathan said:

I know it's a bit pricey compared to others but have you any idea on the quality of this William Optics erecting diagonal for daytime use?  I'm not sure how much difference the diagonal quality makes for daytime observing of birds etc.

The WO diagonal is probably the best easily available prism but I was put off when they changed the design and removed the micro-focusser option, the very best ones use a pentaprism  but you are looking at £150-£500. I think the prism is probably the critical component in a spotting scope design.

Alan

Edited June 11, 2021 by Alien 13

[Alien 13]

20 minutes ago, jonathan said:

From just reading a few articles and reviews it seems that ED is highly desirable to cut down colour fringing and such, and a magnification range between 20x - 60x (for an 80mm objective this would be 8mm - 24mm eyepiece) to make it worthwhile, otherwise use binoculars.

Those criteria should help me to cut down the number of models I'd want to look at, and I do like the idea of having standard 1.25" eyepiece fitting as that allows me to use my existing astronomy eyepiece collection.  It seems that many of the more expensive brands tie you into their own ecosystem with bespoke eyepiece fittings, more money for them I suppose.

Also, as much as a 50~65 objective scope would be lightweight, it seems that the 80mm objective scopes have greater potential for light gathering and thus a greater light condition range, but only when coupled with good multi-coated optics (hence opting only for models with ED glass, which I think usually will come with those good quality lens coatings for higher light transmission).

There are some scope speficiations that I don't understand or can't yet relate to though, such as a few listing with this Celestron Regal M2 80ED including the angular field of view (how does this translate to the real world when looking at a distant treeline?), Relative Brightness - totally meaningless to me, Twilight Factor - again, what does this figure actually relate to in terms of being able to see a bird at distance?  Such as how it relates to lighting conditions given a clear sky at a specific date and time at my latitude (NE England).  Any real-world advice on these would be much appreciated.

Just looking at the Acuter GrandVista, I see it comes with a rubber-armoured body but I'm not so sure that I like that, I would prefer a straight forward metal casing as in my experience rubber coatings tend to degrade over time, especially with exposure to UV (even if it always has the soft case fitted, the rubber coating will likely still degrade albeit at a slower rate).  This is a shame as this combined with the requirement for ED glass effectively eliminates the entire Acuter range.

The Helios Fieldmaster Triplet is looking like a good contender at the moment.

I personally would look at 60-70mm scopes as these should allow for lower magnifications, my WO with a 32mm plossl gives around 12X as the min which is about what you would need at the low power end for spotting.

The other thing to consider though is that smaller scopes tend to have limited backfocus and might struggle with the extra light path of a correct image prism..

Alan

Edited June 11, 2021 by Alien 13

[Captain Scarlet]

I have exactly that WO 45 degree erecting diagonal and IMO it’s very good. I’ve had it for instance in my Intes M603 6” Mak looking at Hooded Crows on a post at about 60m distance, and the image quality seemed every bit as good as another scope I had alongside the same day: my Kowa TSN 883, which by all accounts is the match of the best spotters from Leica and Swarovski.

the only “blemish” in that erecting diagonal was when looking at Vega one time, there was a diffraction spike from the “roof” of the prism. But I think that’ll make no appreciable difference for daytime use.

Cheers Magnus

[Shimrod]

On 11/06/2021 at 09:27, jonathan said:

Also, as much as a 50~65 objective scope would be lightweight, it seems that the 80mm objective scopes have greater potential for light gathering and thus a greater light condition range, but only when coupled with good multi-coated optics (hence opting only for models with ED glass, which I think usually will come with those good quality lens coatings for higher light transmission).

There are some scope speficiations that I don't understand or can't yet relate to though, such as a few listing with this Celestron Regal M2 80ED including the angular field of view (how does this translate to the real world when looking at a distant treeline?), Relative Brightness - totally meaningless to me, Twilight Factor - again, what does this figure actually relate to in terms of being able to see a bird at distance?  Such as how it relates to lighting conditions given a clear sky at a specific date and time at my latitude (NE England).  Any real-world advice on these would be much appreciated.

Just looking at the Acuter GrandVista, I see it comes with a rubber-armoured body but I'm not so sure that I like that, I would prefer a straight forward metal casing as in my experience rubber coatings tend to degrade over time, especially with exposure to UV (even if it always has the soft case fitted, the rubber coating will likely still degrade albeit at a slower rate).  This is a shame as this combined with the requirement for ED glass effectively eliminates the entire Acuter range.

 

The advantage of spotting scopes over astro scopes is they are designed for moving around and surviving a few bumps on walks etc and generally have some level of waterproofing against inclement weather. I don't yet own a spotting scope but have been looking at them recently - I often go to nature reserves (I'm a WWT member) but only use binoculars at the moment. The Regal M2 has good reviews and seems to feature quite often in the various 'top 10' type articles as a strong contender in it's price bracket. Larger apertures give better low light performance so can extend the use into early evening, but generally at the cost of a longer 'close focus' distance and some FOV. Weight differences between 65mm and 80mm don't seem to be signficant when you consider you will be carrying a tripod as well.

The one caution I would give about the Helios Fieldmaster is that I could not find any reviews on a website I would be willing to click on! Surprising for a scope that has been around at least 8 years

[Astrobits]

You could attend one of the optics days at an RSPB site where you can try out some of the scopes they sell. There's some dates in November and December in West Yorkshire. Alternatively look up FOCUS OPTICS for their offerings. A bit further to travel but a bigger range on offer. You could take your current kit to compare with whatever is on demo.

Nigel

[jonathan]

2 hours ago, Astrobits said:

You could attend one of the optics days at an RSPB site where you can try out some of the scopes they sell. There's some dates in November and December in West Yorkshire. Alternatively look up FOCUS OPTICS for their offerings. A bit further to travel but a bigger range on offer. You could take your current kit to compare with whatever is on demo.

Nigel

I have been advised to try before I buy and that would be great in an ideal world (I'd just drive down the road to Bempton Cliffs), but I'm not willing to travel to West Yorkshire (even at the best of times!) or further afield.  Besides, I can imagine how such a viewing is likely to go - when I looked at the RSPB website they had mostly RSPB-branded kit for sale which makes me think they've done a deal to rebrand things that are probably very similar to the Helios and other China-made ones, and they'll most likely have these plus maybe a couple of more expensive offerings from leading brands (but I doubt it would be Swarowski).  I'd be very surprised if they had anything that FLO stock.  I've always bought astro equipment 'blind' (after reading up on them and reviews) so I don't really see why this should be any different.

I'd probably be better off asking the local bird watching gang if I can have a quick butcher's through their scopes, I've done that before a few years ago but... that was a few years ago, and I wasn't really in the market for a spotting scope then.  However, as most of them have very expensive scopes it might not really help me much other than make me disappointed in anything I can actually afford right now.

Edited June 12, 2021 by jonathan

[jonathan]

2 hours ago, Shimrod said:

The one caution I would give about the Helios Fieldmaster is that I could not find any reviews on a website I would be willing to click on! Surprising for a scope that has been around at least 8 years

I found quite a few favourable birding / hunting forum entries praising the product line, it may be that official review sites either don't want to review it or weren't paid to or given freebie ones to review.  Likewise, on the 'official' review sites I couldn't find much mention of quite a few of the spotting scopes I've come across, they do tend to stick to the big brands from what I've seen.

[Rusted]

Don't ever look through any top name brand or you will be disappointed by any other purchase.
Top names only got there by years of research and refinement.
They are sold on word of mouth recommendation by respected, fellow bird spotters.

I used my battered old, Vixen 90mm f/11 achromat as my minimum optical standard.
[with Baader 1.25" erecting prism and Meade 4000 EPs used in all light conditions up to several hundred yards]
It was a real eye opener when I compared it to some expensive spotting scopes.
Including a Zeiss 70mm zoom and the top model of a 85mm US range raved about by US hunters on YT.

Zoom in to check how dim and soft you can personally tolerate from your first choice.
Then keep on looking until you wonder how many vital organs really need..

[Paz]

I'm aware of the expensive brands for birding bins but have never dared to try them myself. I settled for some Opticron bins which are epic compared to any other bins I've looked through and I want to keep it that way, I don't want to be deflated by experiencing  anything that does even better.