Considering a new imaging refractor in the 100mm/600mm (ish) FL range?

[oymd]

Good evening everyone

Have been waiting forever for the Esprit 100ED to be back in stock.

Have grown tired of waiting, and had a look at Telescope service, and they have a few options in stock.

Anyone here has experience with their Photoline scopes?

Here are the options I am considering:

1- TS-Optics CF-APO 102 mm f/7 FPL55 Triplet APO Refractor with Certificate

FL 714mm. I like the idea of a longer FL, and a 0.8 reducer is available.

FPL55? Would that be equivalent or BETTER than FPL53?

3.7" R&P focuser

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p12878_TS-Optics-CF-APO-102-mm-f-7-FPL55-Triplet-APO-Refractor-with-Certificate.html

 

2- TS-Optics Imaging Star 100 mm f/5.8 Quadruplet Apo with field flatener

FL 580. Similar to Esprit.

FPL53. Quad, no need for flattener.

4" CNC R&P

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p6478_TS-Optics-Imaging-Star-100-mm-f-5-8-Quadruplet-Apo-with-field-flatener.html

 

3-  TS-Optics PHOTOLINE 107 mm f/6.5 FPL53 Triplet Apo - 3.5" Focuser

FL 700mm

FPL53

3.5" R&P

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p11024_TS-Optics-PHOTOLINE-107-mm-f-6-5-FPL53-Triplet-Apo---3-5--Focuser.html

 

What are your thoughts on TS Optics and their line of imaging APOs? What is their QA and finishing like?

The Esprits are tried and tested, and have quite a following amongst imagers, but I have not read a lot about TS Optics and their scopes? The TS APOs I mentioned above all seem to have better focusers than the Esprit, which would be a bonus when attaching cameras and accessories.

Are the Esprits far superior to the above TS options? Should I just keep waiting?

I had the option of buying a used Esprit 100ED last month, but it had an optical issue, and the sale fell through!

Edited May 4, 2021 by oymd

[johninderby]

Worth checking Astrograph which are UK based. Lot of options there. They do some of the same scopes as the TS ones made by the same manufacturers as well as other ones. Great place to deal with as well. 👍🏻

https://astrograph.net/epages/www_astrograph_net.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/www_astrograph_net/Categories/Shop/"Telescopes %26 Binoculars"/Apochromatic_Refractor_Telescopes

Edited May 4, 2021 by johninderby

[oymd]

1 minute ago, johninderby said:

Worth checking Astrograph which are UK based. Lot of options there. They do some of the same scopes as the TS ones made by the same manufacturers as well as other ones. Great place to deal with as well. 👍🏻

https://astrograph.net/epages/www_astrograph_net.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/www_astrograph_net/Categories/Shop/"Telescopes %26 Binoculars"/Apochromatic_Refractor_Telescopes

Thanks John. Will have a look.

I've never heard of Astrograph?

[johninderby]

They are a very highly respected dealer of high end astro gear. Service is second to none. If you have any questions just ask the owner Rupert. 

[johninderby]

In the realm of fantasy scopes take a look at this. £££££££££££££££££££ 🙀🙀🙀

https://astrograph.net/epages/www_astrograph_net.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/www_astrograph_net/Products/AGASAEQ1000

[oymd]

Seriously John, come on, I was asking in my original post about scopes IN STOCK...

That's a 240 days waiting time...!!

I'd order it IF it was in stock....

 

😂

[DaveS]

+10 for Astrograph.

When I bought my first ASA mount Rupert delivered it himself (Having just come from another customer) and didn't leave until it was on the pier, at least roughly aligned and up and running, As I recall it was 7.30 before he left.

He's a top bloke.

[oymd]

No one has given any thoughts or input on the TS Optics I have listed above though?

[KP82]

There are many 4" f/7 triplets on the market, but most of them are FPL53 based rather than the new FPL55. The 55 is slightly worse than the 53 on the Abbe scale but is supposed to be easier to work with. So overall the results should be comparable to the 53 scopes. I'd use the reviews for the FPL53 version (easily found on the web) as a reference.

The TS 107mm f/6.5 is basically the same scope as my APM 107/700. It's made by Sharpstar. I use mine mostly for visual (I use the 115 for imaging) and it works really well. And when I did image with it and a TSRED279 reducer (I didn't have the Riccardi at that time), the result was pretty good on par with what you'd expect from a well made Chinese FPL53 triplet although I detected a tiny bit of pinching in the optics (it was a very cold windy night).

Not sure about the 100mm quad.

As a brand TS Optics is quite well regarded. Their customer service are very helpful and respond quickly. I bought quite a few adaptors and eyepieces from them including asking them questions beforehand. They all went smoothly. However be aware of import tax and VAT if you're ordering scopes from them now.

Edited May 5, 2021 by KP82

[nfotis]

2 hours ago, oymd said:

No one has given any thoughts or input on the TS Optics I have listed above though?

It's my understanding that Sharpstar is the OEM for these.

If you buy the equivalent Sharpstar from FLO, you should be getting the same product, and you avoid messing with VAT, import taxes and paperwork.

N.F.

 

[oymd]

6 hours ago, KP82 said:

There are many 4" f/7 triplets on the market, but most of them are FPL53 based rather than the new FPL55. The 55 is slightly worse than the 53 on the Abbe scale but is supposed to be easier to work with. So overall the results should be comparable to the 53 scopes. I'd use the reviews for the FPL53 version (easily found on the web) as a reference.

The TS 107mm f/6.5 is basically the same scope as my APM 107/700. It's made by Sharpstar. I use mine mostly for visual (I use the 115 for imaging) and it works really well. And when I did image with it and a TSRED279 reducer (I didn't have the Riccardi at that time), the result was pretty good on par with what you'd expect from a well made Chinese FPL53 triplet although I detected a tiny bit of pinching in the optics (it was a very cold windy night).

Not sure about the 100mm quad.

As a brand TS Optics is quite well regarded. Their customer service are very helpful and respond quickly. I bought quite a few adaptors and eyepieces from them including asking them questions beforehand. They all went smoothly. However be aware of import tax and VAT if you're ordering scopes from them now.

I thought that APM is one of the premium brands and made in Germany?

Are APMs also made by Sharpstar in China?

[tooth_dr]

29 minutes ago, oymd said:

I thought that APM is one of the premium brands and made in Germany?

Are APMs also made by Sharpstar in China?

I went through this myself at the end of last year, and according to forum members, some APM scopes do use SharpStar lenses.   But ig you buy an LZOS version of an APM scope, then the glass will be made in Russia and be certified specifically for that scope.   There is quite a bit of choice in that range, and after a disappointing Sharpstar scope, I ended up buying a used LZOS 105/650.

[KP82]

37 minutes ago, oymd said:

I thought that APM is one of the premium brands and made in Germany?

Are APMs also made by Sharpstar in China?

Only the ones with LZOS lenses from APM are considered premium refractors. Markus also sells some rebrands including 107/700, 140/980 and 152/1200. The 107 is a triplet whereas the latter two are doublets.

[Deadlake]

7 hours ago, KP82 said:

There are many 4" f/7 triplets on the market, but most of them are FPL53 based rather than the new FPL55. The 55 is slightly worse than the 53 on the Abbe scale but is supposed to be easier to work with. So overall the results should be comparable to the 53 scopes. I'd use the reviews for the FPL53 version (easily found on the web) as a reference.

The TS 107mm f/6.5 is basically the same scope as my APM 107/700. It's made by Sharpstar. I use mine mostly for visual (I use the 115 for imaging) and it works really well. And when I did image with it and a TSRED279 reducer (I didn't have the Riccardi at that time), the result was pretty good on par with what you'd expect from a well made Chinese FPL53 triplet although I detected a tiny bit of pinching in the optics (it was a very cold windy night).

Not sure about the 100mm quad.

As a brand TS Optics is quite well regarded. Their customer service are very helpful and respond quickly. I bought quite a few adaptors and eyepieces from them including asking them questions beforehand. They all went smoothly. However be aware of import tax and VAT if you're ordering scopes from them now.

The QA quality from Sharpstar means for APM FPL scopes are now made by Long Perng and or KUO. You can speak to Rupert at Astrograph.

Also OEM scopes are made to different specs, so not all the same..

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Deadlake

[oymd]

9 hours ago, tooth_dr said:

I went through this myself at the end of last year, and according to forum members, some APM scopes do use SharpStar lenses.   But ig you buy an LZOS version of an APM scope, then the glass will be made in Russia and be certified specifically for that scope.   There is quite a bit of choice in that range, and after a disappointing Sharpstar scope, I ended up buying a used LZOS 105/650.

Yes, I know. Jesper's!!

I have been agonising over the second one he has for sale!!

BTW, did you buy it this year, or last year BEFORE Brexit?

Am I right in thinking that currently after Brexit there will be Tax & VAT applied?

[Deadlake]

1 minute ago, oymd said:

Yes, I know. Jesper's!!

I have been agonising over the second one he has for sale!!

BTW, did you buy it this year, or last year BEFORE Brexit?

Am I right in thinking that currently after Brexit there will be Tax & VAT applied?

The transport handling charge has gone up from €20 to €100 as well as the cost of air freight which is 8x more expensive.

I bought an LZOS before Brexit so avoided this new tax being introduced.

[KP82]

9 hours ago, Deadlake said:

The QA quality from Sharpstar means for APM FPL scopes are now made by Long Perng and or KUO. You can speak to Rupert at Astrograph.

Also OEM scopes are made to different specs, so not all the same..

 

While SharpStar is considered one of the better telescope factories in China, I've noticed their QA has been slipping down recently. There are quite a few reports on pinched optics and excess amount of CA in their EDPH (mainly the 61) triplets. Long Perng and KUO seem to be more consistent with their quality. The 140 and 152 doublets along with the latest 203 f/7 triplet are not products of Sharpstar.

[Deadlake]

3 minutes ago, KP82 said:

While SharpStar is considered one of the better telescope factories in China, I've noticed their QA has been slipping down recently. There are quite a few reports on pinched optics and excess amount of CA in their EDPH (mainly the 61) triplets. Long Perng and KUO seem to be more consistent with their quality. The 140 and 152 doublets along with the latest 203 f/7 triplet are not products of Sharpstar.

I'm told the 140 and 152 are KUO produced and have lens cells which are derived from Zeiss (where Markus worked) to fix various initial design issues. So really a Chinese made Zeiss designed scope with blanks from Japan.

I'd of bought one if I didn't need a fast scope.

It's the Sharpstar optics which have become unpredictable over the years which is a shame as APM transferred a lot of knowledge to help them with this.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Deadlake

[KP82]

3 minutes ago, Deadlake said:

I'm told the 140 and 152 are KUO produced and have lens cells which are derived from Zeiss (where Markus worked) to fix various initial design issues. So really a Chinese made Zeiss designed scope with blanks from Japan.

I'd of bought one if I didn't need a fast scope.

It's the Sharpstar optics which have become unpredictable over the years which is a shame as APM transferred a lot of knowledge to help them with this.

Thanks for sharing that info. No wonder why these two doublets are so popular. Any OEM details on the new 203mm f/7?

Sharpstar have abandoned most of their old fracs product line in favour of the new EDPH line up with unknown ED glasses and unpredictable QA. Seems like a move for major cost cut. It's such a shame to see the relationship between APM and Sharpstar end like this. Otherwise I'd imagine there would be more 3 - 4" fast triplets from APM.

[david_taurus83]

If you want TS scopes then have a word with Zoltan at 365 as he stocks them. 

[oymd]

This thread has deviated a little bit from the original topic on TS Optics..

But it's still very useful information, as I always wanted to know who makes the telescopes.

So, there are basically 4 major OEMs for the refractors around the world?

Please feel free to populate the venters who source their scopes from each OEM?

Long Pen: ?

KUO: ?

Sharp Star: TS Optics, APM what else?

Synta: Sky-Watcher Esprits etc

[Deadlake]

8 minutes ago, oymd said:

This thread has deviated a little bit from the original topic on TS Optics..

My thoughts we are discussing reports on QA process of Sharpstar who OEM for TS, thats on topic??? 

One question (which I would agree is increasing scope) is how much we should trust a test report by TS or FLO for a scope as I'm sure not all the metrics are being considered in such test.

8 minutes ago, oymd said:

Sharp Star: TS Optics, APM what else?

For Sharpstar, APM not any more.

KUO -> APM

Edited May 6, 2021 by Deadlake

[tooth_dr]

1 hour ago, oymd said:

Yes, I know. Jesper's!!

I have been agonising over the second one he has for sale!!

BTW, did you buy it this year, or last year BEFORE Brexit?

Am I right in thinking that currently after Brexit there will be Tax & VAT applied?

I’ve only had it a few weeks. I live in Northern Ireland so we’re exempt from brexit due to the NI Protocol.  My scope did get lost in the post for 30 days but that’s another story. 

[KP82]

13 minutes ago, Deadlake said:

One question (which I would agree is increasing scope) is how much we should trust a test report by TS or FLO for a scope as I'm sure not all the metrics are being considered in such test.

I remember there was a thread on CN talking about this. Many test reports for refractors only cover 95% of the diameter from the centre of the lens. When that gets expanded to 100%, the performance figure drops quite a bit. Now I'm not sure how many vendors are testing for 95% and how many are doing 100%. In that thread AT was confirmed to only test 95% whereas Markus posted in that thread saying APM did 100%.

[Deadlake]

33 minutes ago, KP82 said:

I remember there was a thread on CN talking about this. Many test reports for refractors only cover 95% of the diameter from the centre of the lens. When that gets expanded to 100%, the performance figure drops quite a bit. Now I'm not sure how many vendors are testing for 95% and how many are doing 100%. In that thread AT was confirmed to only test 95% whereas Markus posted in that thread saying APM did 100%.

I was thinking poly strehl is not reported/tested, nor RMS and PV.

Sensitivity of lens cell to temperature, the premium makers know but you have to contact them to find out. 

At present field testing is only guarantee or buying premium.