ED vs APO - in layman's terms

[Louis D]

4 minutes ago, Highburymark said:

For what it’s worth, not once did false colour spoil the views through my Equinox 80ED.

Agreed.  It's really only at very high powers on bright objects that false color can intrude.  False color suppression also helps discern low contrast details on planets and nebula.  For everyday viewing, though, it isn't much of an issue.

I still remember being unimpressed with the views of Jupiter through a 4" Astro Physics APO at a Texas star party as compared to the view through a 15" Obsession Dob.  It was simply no contest.  Both cost the same with the mount included.  That sealed the deal for me to get a Dob instead of an APO.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Louis D

[Carl Au]

I love this forum, but there is a place for talking about the high end stuff, getting started general help and advise isn't it. I was just picturing the face of a beginner on seeing the price of a 4 inch japanese refractor for the first time with nothing else to base an opinion on. Perhaps there should be a seperate forum for such things like they have on CN? Just a thought? 

On a completely unrelated matter I had an excellent session last night, big moon or no...

Edited February 23, 2021 by Carl Au

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, Carl Au said:

I love this forum, but there is a place for talking about the high end stuff, getting started general help and advise isn't it. I was just picturing the face of a beginner on seeing the price of a 4 inch japanese refractor for the first time with nothing else to base an opinion on. Perhaps there should be a seperate forum for such things like they have on CN? Just a thought? 

On a completely unrelated matter I had an excellent session last night, big moon or no...

I've often wondered why there are four beginners forums, but only one Scopes/Whole setups forum.  Why aren't scopes split out by type as on CN?  A refractors forum would have been the natural place for this thread, but it doesn't exist on SGL for unknown reasons.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Louis D

[John]

Just now, Louis D said:

I've often wondered why there are four beginners forums, but only one Scopes/Whole setups forum.  Why aren't scopes split out by type as on CN?  A refractors forum would have been the natural place for this thread, but it doesn't exit on SGL for unknown reasons.

From when I was a moderator here I recall we did discuss this quite often but the conclusion was that we worried about "silos" developing as is the case to some extent on CN.

Maybe that viewpoint has changed lately though ?

I agree with the points that Carl has made in this thread re: high end equipment. This is now discussed a lot on SGL whereas there is (or seems to be ?) less emphasis on more accessible / affordable options, which in many cases enable just as much enjoyment to be had.

I'm probably guilty of this as well so I'm going to try and do something about that in the way I post

 

[Carl Au]

6 minutes ago, John said:

From when I was a moderator here I recall we did discuss this quite often but the conclusion was that we worried about "silos" developing as is the case to some extent on CN.

Maybe that viewpoint has changed lately though ?

I agree with the points that Carl has made in this thread re: high end equipment. This is now discussed a lot on SGL whereas there is (or seems to be ?) less emphasis on more accessible / affordable options, which in many cases enable just as much enjoyment to be had.

I'm probably guilty of this as well so I'm going to try and do something about that in the way I post

 

I always felt that you were the voice of moderation on here John (literally and proverbilly) 

[Marc1964]

Interesting points made all round. I found myself last week wondering if anyone made a truly killer short achromat which was just ridiculously good value because they had hit the sweet spot between design, materials and glass quality and didn't cost £300+!

I echo the sentiments made about fun at the low end of the market because I do wonder how many people do end up being put off because they get the impression that unless they spend over £500 on an ED or APO scope and drop £200+ on a mount then the experience will be terrible. I get a lot of pleasure from my used, £60 evostar 90/910 (including mount). 

Even a cheap pair of binoculars can be eye opening and allow us all anyone to enjoy the beauty of the skies.... 

On that note, I am grabbing the bins and going for a walk with them in the vain hope that the clouds will part sufficiently for a view!

Edited February 23, 2021 by Marc1964

[Louis D]

53 minutes ago, John said:

From when I was a moderator here I recall we did discuss this quite often but the conclusion was that we worried about "silos" developing as is the case to some extent on CN.

Unfortunately, in trying to prevent silo'ing, it may just push discussions into the wrong forums for lack of a better place.  In particular, the beginner forums.  Recently, I've noticed more than a few advanced threads in them that didn't really belong there.

[Mr Thingy]

On 22/02/2021 at 13:27, Carl Au said:

It's getting like astro top trumps in here, it never used to be like this in SGL.

I must say that this hasn't been my experience of this forum in the limited time I've been here.

I see a lot of people going out of their way to be helpful and supportive and in the most part providing very balanced advice. 

When called for, it's often nice to know what benefit you can get with "the next model up", to help with decision making.

I'm a proud owner of 4 relatively cheap SkyWatcher scopes that I've accumulated over the years, including a basic 120mm achromat (which I use the most incidentally) but I enjoy reading about the higher spec gear others have and their experience of them. I expect I will seek a higher spec 'scope in the not-too-distant future and glad others have shared their knowledge of what benefits to expect and the relative extent of them.

Just my 10 cents... 

[mikeDnight]

I know some feel that discussing higher end ED or Apo refractors might put people off when they look at the price tag, but I really don't believe that would be the case. Many of us remember the days of the beautiful 4" Unitron adverts that graced the pages of Sky & Telescope magazine, where the price tag was in the realms of car or even house prices of the time. They didn't put me off. In fact they gave me something to aim towards. When I eventually saved enough money so I could afford a 102mm F13  Vixen Pulsar achromat, I really felt I'd attained my goal of becoming a serious astronomer. Refractors above 3" were hard to come by when i started out in this hobby, so a 4" was something very special.  That Vixen achromat was an amazing all round scope that would hold its own against any similar aperture ED or Apo.  Part of me still wishes I had that Vixen achromat, but the reality is that modern ED doublets are just as capable, almost certainly better colour corrected, and a darn sight easier to mount and transport.  So my old beautiful Vixen would be a relic that would hold a well deserved place in my heart, but that has been superseded by even the lowliest modern, shorter focal length, wider field FPL51 doublet.   

The original post asked the question "ed vs apo in layman's terms."  Reading through the entire thread a second time makes me feel that question has been answered quite effectively.  That question though, would by nature need to touch on the higher end ED and Apo telescopes. I haven't seen anyone pushing high end as a must have. Neither have I seen anyone trying to belittle the lower priced refractors, - quite the opposite in fact. If those starting out in this amazing hobby are to be denied the views and experiences of more experienced observers, or owners of high end equipment, and made to feel like they are treading on eggshells, just because someone might be offended if they mention a certain brand or manufacturer, then that would be a sad day indeed for both ends of the spectrum.  

[John]

18 minutes ago, Mr Thingy said:

Just my 10 cents... 

But what you REALLY need is 1000 cents ......

[mikeDnight]

10 hours ago, John said:

But what you REALLY need is 1000 cents ......

We all feel honoured John. It isn't every day we get to look inside your wallet! 😁

[Louis D]

16 hours ago, John said:

But what you REALLY need is 1000 cents ......

Do y'all secretly use US coinage for trade in thoughts over there?

[Mr Thingy]

25 minutes ago, Louis D said:

Do y'all secretly use US coinage for trade in thoughts over there?

I converted back to my local coinage:

"Just my 7.09 pence...."

🤭

Doesn't have the same ring to it though.

[mikeDnight]

29 minutes ago, Louis D said:

Do y'all secretly use US coinage for trade in thoughts over there?

Absolutely Louis.  We'd use the Matabeelee gumbo beads or even chocolate buttons if they're worth more than the £, - and most currencies are! ☺

[Xilman]

15 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

Absolutely Louis.  We'd use the Matabeelee gumbo beads or even chocolate buttons if they're worth more than the £, - and most currencies are! ☺

Eh?

In my experience, 1 GBP is worth more than 1 unit of almost all other currencies. Currently, 1.16EUR, 1.40USD,  102INR, 1.78 AUD,  30.22 CZK, ...

On of the very few exceptions is the Kuwaiti Dinar where 1GBP is worth 0.427 KWD,  This does not include such as ounces of gold (1 XAU = 1275 GBP)  or palladium (1XPD = 1715 GBP)

Work your way through www.xe.com if you want to find other exceptions. That is from where I took these figures just now.

 

[mikeDnight]

1 minute ago, Xilman said:

Eh?

In my experience, 1 GBP is worth more than 1 unit of almost all other currencies. Currently, 1.16EUR, 1.40USD,  102INR, 1.78 AUD,  30.22 CZK, ...

On of the very few exceptions is the Kuwaiti Dinar where 1GBP is worth 0.427 KWD,  This does not include such as ounces of gold (1 XAU = 1275 GBP)  or palladium (1XPD = 1715 GBP)

Work your way through www.xe.com if you want to find other exceptions. That is from where I took these figures just now.

 

It was just my attempt at humour Xilman,  and not actually a serious comment.  Just as my previous comment about looking into John's wallet was only a joke. We all know John doesn't really have that much money in his wallet!

[John]

Sorry I distracted this thread with a picture of a bag of money.

It was not mine - my astro budget is practically zero currently. Fortunately I don't actually need or want anything astro-wise just now though 😁

Back (sort of) on topic, there are also refractors around that are termed "Super Achromat" just to add to the confusion:

I don't think there is any agreed "industry standard" definition of these terms though, no matter how much they are debated on forums like this

Edited February 24, 2021 by John

[vlaiv]

11 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

We all know John doesn't really have that much money in his wallet!

There is well known equation that goes: Money in wallet = 1 / Number of scopes

[Deadlake]

21 hours ago, John said:

From when I was a moderator here I recall we did discuss this quite often but the conclusion was that we worried about "silos" developing as is the case to some extent on CN.

Maybe that viewpoint has changed lately though ?

I agree with the points that Carl has made in this thread re: high end equipment. This is now discussed a lot on SGL whereas there is (or seems to be ?) less emphasis on more accessible / affordable options, which in many cases enable just as much enjoyment to be had.

I'm probably guilty of this as well so I'm going to try and do something about that in the way I post

 

I suspect a lot of telescope owners have both a refractor and reflector so don't really see where the silo idea comes from???? 

[Paul M]

For "getting started" get the telescope you can afford and one you are likely to use. The esoterics of high end refactors and related phraseology are entirely lost on inexperienced eyes that perhaps expect too much anyway.

The For Sale section often contains scopes being sold by beginners who didn't get the bug. The outcome would have been the same for them whether they spent £600 or £6000.

 

[John]

11 minutes ago, Deadlake said:

I suspect a lot of telescope owners have both a refractor and reflector...

As I do.

As I said, this was the thinking when I was a Mod. Maybe it's changed now ?

There is a part of the forum where such suggestions can be made:

https://stargazerslounge.com/forum/50-forum-suggestions-bugs-errors-and-foibles/

 

[Pixies]

I think avoiding 'silos' is a good idea. The dichotomy of  general vs specific zones is pretty common in many forums, not just astronomy. (Ooh - I used the word 'dichotomy' - it'll be 'paradigm' next)

I'd never have learnt about high-end refractors, esoteric designs, magnification vs resolution, or heaven-forbid: lens-lickers, if SGL had been split into many, many different sub-forums and I had stuck to my own areas. I did feel that I had come-of-age when I graduated up to the general sub-forums, from the beginners section, though!

Perhaps this thread should have been in the General Equipment rather than beginners section.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Pixies

[Deadlake]

9 minutes ago, Pixies said:

Perhaps this thread should have been in the General Equipment rather than beginners section.

Like somewhere else. I wonder where... 🙂

To be honest now thing SGL site does well is the latest posts on other zones so you can see whats going on. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Deadlake

[Adam J]

On 22/02/2021 at 14:27, vlaiv said:

Just an observation that could be relevant to this discussion.

Often I hear phrase: such and such 4" APO can soak up magnification and image does not break down at x300 or x400. I always wondered about that. Can't be that my 4" Mak is so much poorer than these premium scopes? Price difference does suggest that it might be the case.

Then I realized important thing - telescope and eyepiece are not only optical elements. We have another lens in optical chain - our eyes.

 

For me its more that the size of the exit pupil to get 300-400x mag on a 4inch scope is not something I would be comfortable with technically possible or not so to me it is a complete nothing statement when people make claims like that.

[John]

20 minutes ago, Adam J said:

For me its more that the size of the exit pupil to get 300-400x mag on a 4inch scope is not something I would be comfortable with technically possible or not so to me it is a complete nothing statement when people make claims like that.

Just because you are not comfortable with it, does not make it a "nothing statement". By all means use the magnification that works well for you and your eyes but don't knock others who find that they enjoy something else when the conditions allow.

I think people report what has worked for them honestly and with enthusiasm on here and it would be a shame to dampen that.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by John