Winter Targets for Small Telescopes

[wibblefish]

Hi,

I am looking for recommendations on some easy, winter targets for a beginner with a small telescope (3.5" refractor). I live in bortle 4 (supposedly) with a slightly restricted garden view due to trees (e.g. Polaris / ursa major is not visible) and quite a bit of light pollution from very bright streetlights in several directions plus neighboring security lights.

I had a bit of a disappointing evening yesterday trying to find m31. Despite struggling with the acute angle (the short tube helped but I am swapping the slow mo's for next time as they got caught against the tripod leg!), I managed to locate the great square, star hopped to Mirach (or at least some very bright star that looked in the right place!) and then hopped to what I think was Mu. Andromeda but I just could not locate m31 for the life of me. I was expecting to see some sort of smudge with a bright core (similar to the nebula in orion?) but whether I just didn't find the correct star or it wasn't visible due to light pollution / early night sky (900-930) I am not sure. I read some advice to try with some binoculars first and to also try navigating between known constellation stars to get a feel for telescope hop distance which I intend to do next time.

Other than thinking about better EP / LP filter  or a finderscope / telrad upgrades it got me thinking what else can I see from my little(?) patch of sky.

Some research and combo with my sky app set to around 930pm has yielded possibilities (tho some I think will be blocked by houses I think):

- Crab Nebula

- Almach

-Algebia

- m35

- Double cluster in perseus

- Orion Nebula (I have seen it several times its my go to atm!)

- Sirius

- Beehive 

- Hyades cluster 

- Pleiades

I've been trying to follow some of the TLAO maps but a lot of the targets are unfortunately either not visible from my location, not recommended or are at a similar acute telescope angle as m31 which is a bit tricky I found.

Any recommendations for something easy to get my confidence with are welcome (or tell me if the ones above are unrealistic!) 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by wibblefish

[Nyctimene]

This is a nice selection:

http://astrog80.astro.cf.ac.uk/mwm/

There is also a report in "Observing -Reports"

Clear Skies!

 

Stephan

[wibblefish]

9 minutes ago, Nyctimene said:

This is a nice selection:

http://astrog80.astro.cf.ac.uk/mwm/

There is also a report in "Observing -Reports"

Clear Skies!

 

Stephan

That is such a cool tool especially for orientating the view of the night sky to what I am seeing many thanks! Definately will add the Moore Winter Marathon to the list

Edited December 18, 2020 by wibblefish

[Zermelo]

If you don't already have the book, you can still get lists of easier targets by season here: https://www.cambridge.org/turnleft/seasonal_skies_october-december

There is a list by constellation on this forum, though it will include some harder-to-find objects

and there are also seasonal lists here.

But certainly don't miss Almach and the Beehive.

[Tiny Clanger]

I'm a fan of the Moore Winter Marathon, and I've won converts to the cause !

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/368237-the-moore-winter-marathon/

The first 25 objects (of 50) are visible in binoculars, the second 25 are best seen in a telescope. Doesn't mean you can't use a 'scope on the first 25 , altho'  some may actually be harder to locate in the 'scope if they are big and don't have clear edges e.g M31 . There's directions of how to find them, as well as a brief explanation of what you are looking at. It's an old list, but apart from the info on planetsit all holds true still.

[Marvin Jenkins]

Don’t despair, I am sure you will be successful in your hunt. I will say that your description of bortle 4 with street lights may mean you are more like B6 which explains why M31 is so hard to track down. M31 is large but very diffuse so light pollution really robs it from the EP.

Crab nebula took me over a year in B4 skies. It is so small I was massively underwhelmed. Perhaps leave that one for a time with a slightly larger scope.

The double cluster in Perseus is a great target, go for it. I am not much of a star/double star observer so someone else will be along shortly about the stars in your list.

If I may offer a suggestion? There are three star clusters in the lower half of Auriga. This constellation is to the left and slightly higher than the V of Taurus. Auriga is a bright five star circle and large, so easy to find. I can’t remember off hand what the three open clusters are called but they are three of the Messier list so we’ll worth a visit. A further plus point Auriga is visible in the east after dark so no having to stay up after midnight.

Good luck and clear skies.

Marvin

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Marvin Jenkins
Typo

[wibblefish]

Thank you all for your kind posts plenty there to look for I will hopefully get a clear, later night tomorrow if the weather holds so will try some of them! 

[Zermelo]

20 hours ago, Marvin Jenkins said:

I can’t remember off hand what the three open clusters are called but they are three of the Messier list so we’ll worth a visit.

M36, M37, M38:

https://www.cambridge.org/turnleft/seasonal_skies_january-march

[wibblefish]

3 hours ago, Zermelo said:

M36, M37, M38:

https://www.cambridge.org/turnleft/seasonal_skies_january-march

Excellent thank you, I found them in the Orion book after looking at this. I think I need to go through it again as I only really looked at the winter skies section and those are under an earlier bit! 

[Marvin Jenkins]

Splendid work Zermelo. I knew they were in the 30’s but all my gear including books and charts are packed away due to building works.

I didn’t want to be one of those experts (I am not) that advises someone new to the magic and then gets the numbers wrong.

wibblefish, if you do get to observe them please post your views and impressions of these open clusters in the observing section. I will look out for your avatar.

Marvin

[MARS1960]

20 hours ago, wibblefish said:

Excellent thank you, I found them in the Orion book after looking at this. I think I need to go through it again as I only really looked at the winter skies section and those are under an earlier bit! 

This is my goto website for targets, very "customizable" to your needs too.

https://telescopius.com

[wibblefish]

So I managed to get out both nights at the weekend, had an excellent clear night on Saturday and an okish one on Sunday. I did note that the later session on Saturday (10-12) vs the slightly earlier on Sunday (830-10) that the LP was more marked on Sunday so I suspect my disappointing night was more due to the timing (730-930) and maybe some atmospherics. I also made sure I had a garden chair to lean on which improved things no end rather than trying to stand at funny angles for extended periods!

I am happy to report that I picked out M31 on both nights, I found it in the place I was looking before very easily with binoculars and used that to help guide the scope, then managed to find it with just the scope on the next night in the same place  An elongated smudge around a central brighter core so I think it matches with the descriptions I have of it from various books / sites so very pleased. I have a feeling I will be using the binoculars quite a lot more to help locate approximate positions of objects to observe as the field view is much wider than the telescope, its making me also think I should consider getting a wider EP than my current  25mm.

I had some fantastic views of Pleiades on both nights as well, the constellation is nice and bright so that helps. I am trying to work out how I would be able to get enough light to do some drawings of what I see without having to turn on the red light led torch I have, maybe they do little red light book lights? (or could mod one with some nail polish or some such.)

After this I turned to Mars, unfortunately even under 10mm it is still mostly a bright dot, though I could discern a red tinge to it (its more obvious in the binoculars oddly). I have managed to see some shadowing on the surface on other nights but not much over the weekend.

Orion's nebula was fantastic as always, it seems to be my go to target at the moment, really enjoyable and seem to be seeing more detail every time I look at it!

On the first night I saw an odd set of stars that seemed to be in two parallel lines, a little to the north of Auriga but I'll have to hunt them down on a star map to see what they were though I forgot to look and confirm the next night.

Sunday I did a similar set of targets initially but I then turned towards Auriga in a hunt for M36,M37,M38 .... I am pretty sure I saw at least one, alas at the moment I am uncertain which, will have to try and confirm next time! The best was a small grey cloud that after observing for a longer period (and trying averted vision which I think worked at times) seemed to have a central orange-ish star and then a host of other smaller stars in a diffuse cloud around it. The other two I believe I located around the area were more clusters of brighter stars without the more diffuse cloud so that is why I am uncertain of them as I was expecting them all to be similar. I'll have to do some sleuthing with the internet to try and determine what I really saw but from descriptions in TLAO I suspect the cloudy one was M37.

Thank you all so much for your kind replies, I will have to work my way through the Moore marathon as well

@Marvin Jenkins hopefully you will see this as I am not sure if I should put this into the observing section as I don't want to clutter up the forum with my inexperienced ramblings when I already have this post!

@MARS1960 thats a great site, thank you very much!

Edited December 21, 2020 by wibblefish

[Zermelo]

Excellent, glad you are finding stuff.
Yes, refractors often have a narrower field of view, and you could try getting a longer eyepiece - for example the Vixen NPL 30mm. Just check that it doesn't make the exit pupil* too large, or you'll lose some of the light. The alternative is to get a shorter eyepiece that has a wider apparent field of view (like a 68 degree or 82 degree piece). This could give you the same true field of view in the sky as a longer eyepiece, but with a smaller exit pupil. Decent versions of these ultrawide eyepieces cost quite a bit more, though.  

* = eyepiece focal length divided by telescope's focal ratio. So for example if your scope is F/10, that vixen would give a 3mm exit pupil, which is fine. But my F/5 scope would give me a 6mm pupil, which is pushing it slightly for someone my age.

 

[wibblefish]

9 minutes ago, Zermelo said:

Excellent, glad you are finding stuff.
Yes, refractors often have a narrower field of view, and you could try getting a longer eyepiece - for example the Vixen NPL 30mm. Just check that it doesn't make the exit pupil* too large, or you'll lose some of the light. The alternative is to get a shorter eyepiece that has a wider apparent field of view (like a 68 degree or 82 degree piece). This could give you the same true field of view in the sky as a longer eyepiece, but with a smaller exit pupil. Decent versions of these ultrawide eyepieces cost quite a bit more, though.  

* = eyepiece focal length divided by telescope's focal ratio. So for example if your scope is F/10, that vixen would give a 3mm exit pupil, which is fine. But my F/5 scope would give me a 6mm pupil, which is pushing it slightly for someone my age.

 

Appreciated, I was trying to work out some eyepieces earlier. I was thinking of getting a 30 (maybe 32) ... so that would be 30 / 7.3 = 4.1mm ... I assume I don't want that number to go above maybe 5mm?

[John]

Your scope will work quite well with a 40mm eyepiece in terms of exit pupil size but in the 1.25 inch fitting, a 40mm eyepiece will not show show any more sky than a 32mm can and the view can seem rather restricted with a 40mm 1.25 inch eyepiece. The barrel size restricts the size of the field of view that can be shown.

Fortunately, at F/10, your scope is not too fussy over the optical correction of an eyepiece so the lower cost wide angles will work quite well too. It you try them in an F/5 scope they won't do so well though.

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by John

[wibblefish]

1 minute ago, John said:

Your scope will work quite well with a 40mm eyepiece in terms of exit pupil size but in the 1.25 inch fitting, a 40mm eyepiece will not show show any more sky than a 32mm can and the view can seem rather restricted with a 40mm 1.25 inch eyepiece. The barrel size restricts the size of the field of view that can be shown.

Fortunately, at F/10, your scope is not too fussy over the optical correction of an eyepiece so the lower cost wide angles will work quite well too. It you try them in an F/5 scope they won't do so well though.

 

Hi John, thanks!  This version of the Evostar 90 is a F/7.3 rather than F/10 since it is a short tube in case that modifies your advice at all! 

I did indeed read that about 40mm vs 32mm that there isn't a massive difference in terms of wide field so I had figured 32 would be the top end.

[Zermelo]

42 minutes ago, wibblefish said:

Appreciated, I was trying to work out some eyepieces earlier. I was thinking of getting a 30 (maybe 32) ... so that would be 30 / 7.3 = 4.1mm ... I assume I don't want that number to go above maybe 5mm?

Yes, anything up to 5mm is fine for healthy eyes at any age.

There's a thread here that talks about this aspect some more. You can get an idea of the view you would get for any particular eyepiece you are considering on this site. (entering the focal length and apparent field of view).
As John says, longer focal length scopes are more forgiving of eyepieces that are less well-corrected across the field, so at your F/7.3 you should find a larger range of wide-angle eyepieces that will be suitable.   

 

 

[wibblefish]

14 minutes ago, Zermelo said:

Yes, anything up to 5mm is fine for healthy eyes at any age.

There's a thread here that talks about this aspect some more. You can get an idea of the view you would get for any particular eyepiece you are considering on this site. (entering the focal length and apparent field of view).
As John says, longer focal length scopes are more forgiving of eyepieces that are less well-corrected across the field, so at your F/7.3 you should find a larger range of wide-angle eyepieces that will be suitable.   

 

 

Appreciate the advice, thanks should give me plenty to plot for new year purchases 😎

[Marvin Jenkins]

Well done for getting out there and hunting down those targets, great result.

Marv

[wookie1965]

Double stars are a favourite of mine if you are interested either get sissy hass double stars for small scopes or

The Cambridge double star atlas seeing does not have to be perfect if you have a frac I have a 4" and a 5" Refractor both are brilliant on doubles and multiples and clusters. 

[wibblefish]

30 minutes ago, wookie1965 said:

Double stars are a favourite of mine if you are interested either get sissy hass double stars for small scopes or

The Cambridge double star atlas seeing does not have to be perfect if you have a frac I have a 4" and a 5" Refractor both are brilliant on doubles and multiples and clusters. 

Im going to be very newbie here. I see a lot of people saying “splitting doubles” what exactly does that mean / how does one do it 🤔

Thanks for the suggestion I will go look those books up!

[Marvin Jenkins]

10 minutes ago, wibblefish said:

Im going to be very newbie here. I see a lot of people saying “splitting doubles” what exactly does that mean / how does one do it 🤔

Thanks for the suggestion I will go look those books up!

I have joked with great and greater of the forum about this exact subject. Double stars, even triple stars are a ‘must do’, just not for me.

A lot of individual stars to the naked eye are in fact two stars orbiting each other and are of very different compositions.

The main star may be a red giant being orbited closely by a white dwarf! Some doubles are not doubles at all but optically aligned so appearing to be together.

There is a whole Astro world that observe doubles as sometimes they eclipse. I sadly am not a fan, but doubles are something that you can observe well when the moon is around full as they are bright enough when everything else is drowned out by moon light.

Marv

[vlaiv]

6 minutes ago, wibblefish said:

Im going to be very newbie here. I see a lot of people saying “splitting doubles” what exactly does that mean / how does one do it 🤔

Thanks for the suggestion I will go look those books up!

Rather simple thing really - you look at the binary pair of stars and if you see them as two separate stars - then you managed to split them

In fact there are nuances on how dark you can get the sky separation between them - and to achieve a clean split - you need to have at least dark line between them. This is usually done at high power (like planetary and lunar).

Here is a good diagram

Although there are some other terms like:

For me - it is the point when you are confident that there are at least two stars there.

Depending on your aperture, you'll be able to split stars up to certain separation. Good guidelines are Rayleigh and Dawes criteria. One uses 138 (mm) or 5.42 (inch), the other is a bit more tight with 116 (mm) and 4.56 (inch).

Say you want to know if you should be able to split certain pair of stars. Take your aperture in either mm or inch and divide into given numbers above.

90mm scope should be able to resolve according to Rayleigh 138 / 90 = 1.5333" of separation (that is arc second)

You then take Stellarium, find some double stars and note their separation - if it is larger than above value - you can try to split it (you can try to split even those that are at this value or slightly below to see what happens)

Just be careful that you need very good seeing for this - similarly to planetary and lunar observation. It is best if pair is high in the sky to minimize seeing effects.

[wookie1965]

37 minutes ago, wibblefish said:

Im going to be very newbie here. I see a lot of people saying “splitting doubles” what exactly does that mean / how does one do it 🤔

Thanks for the suggestion I will go look those books up!

quite a few stars out there are not single stars one famous is Alcor and Mizar which if you have good eyesight you can see both I have read the Romans used this for the eye test to join there ranks I could be wrong. Another good one is Albireo in Cygnus when viewed through a scope you can clearly see a yellow star and a blue star. There are thousands out there splitting them will take different magnifications depending how close they are to each other.

[wibblefish]

Thank you all for the replies. Sounds like another interesting thing to do in the sky, never honestly thought there was so much variety of things to see. I will have to as you suggest and find some suitable targets to add to my lists😀

Guess if it takes some magnifications Ill be looking for new EP at some point in the new year for definite then! Though I fear I might outspend the cost of the scope on a few EP 🤔