Meade 'handboxes' - a warning!!

[centroid]

I recently had my second Meade Autostar ll 'handbox' die, in less than 15 months.

I bought a new 12" LX200R in late September 2007, and the first 'handbox' died within 3 months. This was replaced under warranttee, and now the replacement has died.

I am now reliably informed, its a known problem, in that they don't like 'living' in an observatory environment :? , as they suffer from moisture ingress (condensation), and subsequently go faulty.

Although I've never had condensation problems in my obsy, it would seem that just moisture in the air, is enough to 'kill' these 'handboxes'. It would seem to be a winter related problem, as both 'handboxes' died during early winter.

My previous scope's (10" LX200 GPS) 'handbox' lived in the obsy for 5 years, without any ill effects, and as far as I know, is still working today.

So, it would seem that Meade have changed something (a component ?) in the later 'handboxes', which has caused this problem.

Is this progress I wonder?

If you have a later LX series scope, then don't leave the 'handbox' in the obsy!!

Dave

[Black Shuck]

Had a similar problem with a Samsung mobile phone. Irrepairable fault due to moisture ingress (engineer's report). Insurance refused to pay out as Vodafone don't/didn't cover water damage?? To my mind water damage and moisture ingress are subtly different but there you go - a good get out clause. I live in the UK and work outside 50% of the time - how do I protect against moisture ingress??

Anyway - rant over.

Dave - is it practicable to disconnect and take in doors each time. If not could you fabricate a box/cover to place it in with some Silica gel sachets???

Bill

P.S - If it's a known problem why haven't they done anything about it!! Is it fit for purpose, etc???

[jcm]

I must admit after reading Dave's post I had a quick look round the obs. I (we) do seem to have a large amount of electronic "stuff" . Most of mine goes into cases - cameras , filter wheels etc. The hand controller , power supply units are things that I normally leave out. As far as I know the only problem with the EQ6 hand controller is when its used at low temps and it slows down.

John

[Helen]

Sorry to hear of your troubles Dave I'm having real problems with my celestron handset at the moment - which lives in the obs - hope its not a similar problem . I've heard they don't like the cold, so tried a dewstrap at the end of last night and I think it might have helped but the keys are getting so difficult to operate that I have to keep taking my glove off (and in this weather that's not good). I hope not to have to keep packing it away as the whole point of the Obs is just being able to sht up and go to bed.

Helen

[philipok]

Hi Dave - this happened to me recently, and I sent the handbox back to Telescope House to be fixed.

I now keep it in a drawer in my hall, with a packet of silica gel. One other option might be to put a condensation remover (from Wickes) in the observatory (a block of crystal and reservoir). They last about 2 months.

Also it started malfunctioning the other night in subzero temperatures. Here's a tip - buy a disposable hand warmer (from Blacks or similar) and tape it to the handset (also good for warming up eyepieces).

Cheers

philip

[astro_dt]

Hi Dave

It's probably worth sticking the controller in a plastic bag with a few packets of silica gel and leaving it for a couple of days. It just may recover.

I have done this before and managed to resurrect mobile phones, MP3 players and even a Palmpilot which fell in a toilet....don't ask!

Cheers

Danny

[barkis]

That's bad news Dave. If it is a known problem, Meade, or the scope supplier should have forewarned you I would have thought.

My LX is just over 5 years old. I bought a second hand controller, just in case, but the original is fine. I don't think mine are the same as yours though, a bit less sophisticated I would say. Anyway, I always keep them indoors in a flightcase alongside other gear till I get the Annex finished. That's if this Cold weather ever relents.

I wonder if the boards in the EQ6 Pro and the like are susceptible to cold conditions maladies.

There must be may setups permanently housed in Obsy's around the country, and this spell of prolonged sub zero temperatures will no doubt test their fallability to adverse conditions. Can't say I've heard any reports of failures yet, so fingers crossed.

I think I will keep a cupboard in my warm area with a heat supply temperature controlled. Keep the temp. at a point or two above freezing. Keep all my electronic gear in there.

Ron.

[NickH]

EQ6 handboxes are a problem in cold...it got to -8 here a few nights back, and yet again, the handbox started packing up, slowed down then all sorts of weird boo**cks on screen (could not find GPS being my fave)

Told them within weeks of having it 2 years ago...and it was largely denied (apart from by Bern bless him, who got in some handbox covers)

I usually fit mine with a telrad heating pad in winter

[centroid]

Bill, yes the HBX can be unplugged. However, if it shouldn't be left in the obs, then Meade should state this.

As I understand it, Meade have been made aware of the problem, but it seems, are saying 'nowt'.

John, I never leave eyepieces or cameras in the oby, but that's only from a security aspect, as they are easy items to carry away.

As I said earlier, the HBX for my 10" LX200GPS, lived in the obsy for 5 years, without suffering any ill effects, so something has obviously changed with the later HBXs.

Philip, I sent the HBX back to BC&F last week, and am awaiting a response.

Danny, the HBX was brought indoors, and remained there for several days, but it didn't recover.

Ron, I suspect that yours is the same as I had with the 10", and as such designed to be 'fit for purpose', so you shouldn't have the problem that the newer HBXs seem to have.

As you say, Meade should admit there is a problem, and either correct it, to put a statement in the user manual, advising people that the HBX is not suitable for being left in an obsy environment.

Helen, I can't say that I've heard of anyone having similar problems with Celestron HBXs, but then perhaps they have, but not said anything about it.

Nick, so Skywatcher HBXs have a similar problem then, but at least their's seems to recover, when warmed up, as opposed to going 'terminal' like the Meade.

Dave

[Psychobilly]

Cold weather can slow the handbox Microcontrollers down quite a bit... resulting in all sorts of wierd and wonderful effects...

Billy...

[astro_dt]

Danny, the HBX was brought indoors, and remained there for several days, but it didn't recover.

Hi Dave, even indoors is no substitute for putting any electronics is sealed plastic bag with dessicant. I know it may not work for you, but as a general tip it's always worth a try.

Good luck

Danny

[centroid]

I'm now getting some interesting 'feedback' from other Meade users, via the dedicated forums.

It seems that the problem is more widespread than I thought, with other users handboxes (HBXs), exhibiting exactly the same symptoms as both of mine did, before going 'terminal'.

As with my findings, the problem only affects the later Autostar ll HBXs, as the older ones just keep on working fine for years. As I said my HBX for the 10" LX200GPS lived in the obsy, all year round, for 5 years, without any problems. I'm hearing the same story for other users.

One 'school of thought' is that the problem relates to a 5V regulator failing. The backlight for the display runs on 12V, with it's supply bypassing the 5V regulator. The 5V supplies the HBX's electronics.

Even after the HBX has died, the display backlight continues working as normal.

One guy, who had two HBXs, one old one (still working), and one later one (that had died), looked at the 5V regulator in both HBXs, and found that the device in the old HBX, was as shown in the schematic, whereas the one the later HBX did not. He suspects, and I tend to agree, that in their wisdom, Meade changed this component, and most likely for a cheaper option.

As it would seem, in each case, these HBXs are failing in winter, another theory of mine, is that its related to an Electrostaic Discharge (ESD) problem.

Contrary to popular belief, ESD is much more of a problem in winter than in summer. This is because the level of charge that can build upon people is directly related to relative humidity. In winter, it possible for RH levels to drop to as low as 16%, allowing charge levels of several kV to build up on people.

The average person will not be aware that he has effected an ESD event into/onto a piece of equipment, until the charge level exceeds 4kV. To give you an idea, when you get a shock off the car door handle, that is large enough to make it uncomfortable, then the level is probably around 7 or 8 kV.

Theoretically, it is possible for some one to carry a charge of 15kV, although it will usually start to leak away before it gets anywhere near that level.

Most people are aware of the need to take ESD precautions when handling electronic circuits and components, but aren't aware that poorly immune equipment, can be damaged by an ESD 'tracking' down the sides of keys on a keypad, given the right conditions.

It is also possible to 'hurt' a component, which after several instances of being 'hurt', eventually dies.

If ESD is the source of problem, then I have wonder if these HBX's actually meet the EMC requirements (which include ESD immunity) of the EU EMC Directive, necessary to affix the CE mark to a product, and market it with the EU.

Whatever the problem is, it is cleary confined to these later HBXs, and only happens during the winter months.

As far as having to keep the HBX indoors, wrapped up with Silica Gel goes, then if that is a case of necessity, as far as I'm concerned, the later HBXs are not 'fit for purpose'.

Why?, because the 12" LX200R, is hardly a portable scope, and in most all case, will reside in an observatory. There is nothing in the user manual that says the HBX, should be treated any differently to the scope it attaches to.

Am I happy, at having had two HBXs, for a scope that cost over £4k, fail within 15 months, the latest one after the warrantee has expired? :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono:

Dave

[barkis]

A clear case for legal intervention Dave. If Meade sell their wares in the UK, then they must, or their dealers must, fall under the

Sale of Goods Act. Those HBX's aint cheap.

Ron.

[astro_dt]

Hi Dave

From you are saying, it would be wise to wear a grounded ESD wriststrap when working with the handbox.

But I'm curious about the regulator, don't these generally run better when they are cooler?

I would be pretty easy to open up a failed controller and test to see if there was still a 5V output from the part. They tend to all follow the same pin out (7805)

Cheers

Danny

[steviejasp]

Mine went the same way a couple of months ago. According to Warehouse express, who have taken a month and a half to get it fixed via TH, i should be getting it back on Monday. Wonder how long it will last this time

[barkis]

Sounds like a fairly easy DIY jobbie. The Regulator could be obtained from RS Components. Only if the HBX is out of warranty though.

Ron.

[steviejasp]

I think the warranty runs out in August so im ok for a few more months. Fingers crossed

[centroid]

Effectively, although the warrantee on the scope has expired, albeit not by long, the replacement HBX is probably less than a year old.

Quite frankly, I don't think that BC&F actually repair them, as a lot of the components are 'surface mount', and as such, are not that easy to desolder and remove. Also fault finding on Logic, is not always a simple process, and very often an engineer will try and diagnose a problem by component substitution. However, as I said, removing surface mount devices from a PCB, without damaging the 'pads' and 'track', is not so easily done.

I suspect, if its in warrantee, its just replaced, and the faulty units most likely returned to Meade, who will then scrap it. If it covered by warranttee, then is the cost of a new HBX I guess.

As you say Ron, if its the 5V reg, then its an easy job to replace. Unfortunately, I can't explore this, as my HBX was sent back to BC&F a week ago.

What annoys me, is that Meade are "apparently" saying its a condensation problem, and as an RF/EMC/Electronics engineer, of over 40 years experience (albeit now retired ), I just don't 'swallow' that one. I looked inside the unit, to check for any obvious 'dry joints', and there wasn't a trace on condensation in there, or any eveidence of it having been there, despite having been out in the obsy.

My old HBX, had an identical case, spent 5 years outside, without any problems, so what's the differnce with the new ones

Danny, you are correct in that electronic devices are much happier at low temperatures, than they are a high.

My obsy desktop PC, that lives out in the obsy, is one large PCB, highly populated with solid state devices, and yet it will 'boot up' and run, when its spent all night at -6C. So indeed does the LX200R istself.

Meade should 'come clean' on this one, admit they've made an error in their choice on component sourcing, and do something about it. Word about this shortcoming with these later HBX is currently spreading around the world, and Celestron must loving every minute of it.

Having said that, having owned both, I would still choose the Meade, because of its primary mirror lock, and motor driven microfocuser.

Dave

[centroid]

While it doesn't let Meade 'off the hook', for the problem I've experienced with two Autostar ll HBX's, I am thankful to BC&F, and their service manager Steve, for a positive and timely reponse.

I now have a replacement HBX.

Great customer service!!

Dave

[jcm]

Yep , helpful people at BCF. Replaced my faulty EQ6 in just a few days.

Glad you got a replacement hand controller.

John

[Zaphod_B]

Hi Folks

I am curious. I have an ETX-105 and have a wierd problem. I'm not sure (yet) whether it is mechanical (I suspect not), electrical (a distinct possibility) or electronic (which I had initially discounted).

The scope will slew in altitude (both up and down) and clockwise in azimuth - but not anti-clockwise. The ETX is not up against any hard stop and when the azimuth clamp is released will freely rotate both clockwise and anticlockwise.

My initial thought was a loose wire in the base of the telescope or a fault in the handbox to scope curly cable. It was only after searching the various forums (eg Weasner's Mighty ETX site and Cloudy Nights) that I started to suspect the handbox itself.

I had levelled the scope and put it into "home" position and then left it outside for several hours to reach thermal equilibrium with a suitable rain cover. The handbox remained plugged in throughout - so was outside for several hours (and it was quite chilly although not as cold as of late).

When I came to perform the alignment, that's when I discovered the "fault". Since then, I have tried warming the handbox gently for an extended period of time but sadly no joy.

The question this poses is this - if you are out in winter for any extended period of time and the handbox fails due to condensation, surely this is grounds for a replacement as the goods are not "fit for purpose" (i.e. telescopes are MEANT to be used out of doors and equally so at all times of the year - both summer and Winter).

As my understanding of UK law goes, you are eligible to get a replacement for up to 6 years after purchase for a manufacturing fault - which this surely is - even if the fault was not immediately apparent.

As another poster (barkis) has stated already in this thread, as Meade sell their products in the UK, they must comply with UK consumer law.

Thoughts people?

Zaph

[centroid]

There are an awful lot of older Meade scopes out there, still working fine, along with their HBX's.

As I said earlier, the HBX of my previous scope (10" LX200GPS), lived out in the obsy, all year round, for five years, without any problems.

I think the problem that I, and others have experienced, is confined to a particular batch of HBXs, produced over particular period of time.

The HBX's are manufactured in China (surprise, surprise ), and having conversed at length, with BC&'s Service Manager, he is convinced that it was a particular batch of HBXs that were produced, and not an ongoing production thing.

As I am lead to believe, Meade are currently trying to get to the bottom of the problem/source.

From what you say, your HBX is not exhibiting the same symptons, as most of us seem to have experienced. That is, the display backlight remains on, but the characters are either gibberish, or not displayed at all, and the keys become unresponsive. In my case this happened on and off, before the HBX died all together.

Dave

[astro_dt]

I am curious. I have an ETX-105 and have a wierd problem. I'm not sure (yet) whether it is mechanical (I suspect not), electrical (a distinct possibility) or electronic (which I had initially discounted).

Hi Zaph

When you calibrate or train the drives do you get the same lack of movement?

Cheers

Danny

[roundycat]

After a lifetime in QA I am used to manufacturers blaming all sorts of things on a 'batch problem'. If it really is a batch problem the applicable serial numbers will by now be known to the manufacturer. Ask for them.

Dennis