Problems with Skywatcher 'star alignment' on a HEQ5 Pro

[monkeyboy]

Hi all.  I'm a complete beginner, just trying to get to grips with this.  Under normal circumstances I'd pop along to the local astronomoy club (I'm in Edinburgh) and see if I can get somebody more experienced to work out what I'm doing wrong, but under lockdown that's a non-starter.  I'm hoping that one of you will be able to work out from my description what it is I'm missing...

The issue I'm struggling with is about set up and alignment.  I have a Skywatcher Evostar 80ED mounted on a HEQ5 Pro mount.  My observing site is on the patio at the back of the house.  It's not perfect, but with the lights off there's mostly just the city light pollution.  It's class 6 bortle.  Not really that dark, but dark enough for what I'm trying to achieve at the moment.  The patio faces south, but I can see polaris over the roof.  Can't see the lower northern sky.  
I've gone through aligning the reticule and think that's pretty good.  Same for the finder scope.  And after several failed attempts and frustrated hours in the dark, I realised that the problem I was having with finding Polaris through the polar scope was that a) you have to turn on the mount first so that the polar scope illuminates and you can see the markings and b) you then have to turn down the LED so that you can see anything other than the markings!  Last night, for the first time, I managed to get polar alignment sorted - Polaris on the little circle in the right place (or at least, I think so - see my first question below).
So I moved onto the handset alignment process.  One star alignment - Arcturus.  Off we go - mount whirs into life, starts slewing and stops... pointing nowhere near Arcturus.  It's closer to pointing at Vega!  I try a few more times - no joy.  Spend a little time manually scanning the sky.  Trudge back inside and scratch my head.

Here's a couple of things that I can think of that may be going wrong.
1) When I perform the polar slignment, my reticule isn't the 'right way up' compared to a normal clock.  The markings are visible, but instead of 12 at the top, 12 is rotated (I forget exactly how much).  Does the reticule have to be oriented like a real clock to work?  Or if Polaris should be at 3, for example, do I put it 3 as marked on the reticule or 3 in comparison to a normal clock?  I doubt this is the issue I'm facing but it would be useful to confirm.
2) When I perform polar alignment I have to rotate the scope through the declination axis so that the polar scope barrel isn't blocked.  Once I've done that, do I need to rotate it back before I move onto the star aslignment process?  Should I rotate the scope so that Polaris is visible through it?  

I'm sure this is all pretty obvious stuff, and it's probably covered in these forums numerous times, in which case I apologise for not finding it.  I'm sure many of you go through these steps every session and will know what I'm doing wrong.

Thanks in advance,
Chris.

[carastro]

Ignore the hour markings on the polar scope reticule but still think of it as a clock face and place polaris where it should be according to whatever app you are using. 
 

Yes put the Dec axis back to home position after doing PA.  

No you don’t need to see Polaris in the actual scope the FOV will probably make it impossible to see. 

If it’s any consolation my mount HEQ5 doesn’t always slew to the alignment star and  l have to find it. But it should still be reasonably in the right location.   Vega is really too far away so there must be something wrong.  Assuming you started at the Home position = scope pointing towards  polaris and counterweights down.  Make sure your location is correct by co-ordinates and that you have entered the date and time format correctly - this is American format.  Plus we are currently   Daylight saving.  
 

Hope this will now work.  Additionally l find a 1 star alignment works better than  a 3  star alignment because l have cone error so there is a slight difference each sude if the Meridian. 
 

HTH. 
 

Carole

Edited April 27, 2020 by carastro

[vlaiv]

I don't have experience with polar alignment procedure with handset, but I can tell you some points that might help you out. I polar align using EQMod and laptop - but I guess it should be fairly similar.

I polar align without scope on my mount - that makes things easier as there are no counter weights or scope to get in the way.

You say you have your polar scope aligned - that is good, I don't have to explain that part.

1. First thing to do is to get Polaris dead in the center by using alt and az polar controls of your mount

2. Next thing to do is to bring Polaris "up" until it hits "clock dial". You need to have your mount level for this to work - so that is important part - use bubble level before putting mount head on tripod - it needs to be level.

3. Now you need to bring 12 o'clock to Polaris. You can either unlock your RA clutch and rotate RA until you get 12 o'clock mark to Polaris or use hand controller and slew in RA until you do the same.

4. Tell controller that you are in "Polar home position" - or that 12 o'clock "is up". Not sure how this is done with hand controller.

5. Tell controller to move 12 o'clock mark to correct position. You see this is main part of polar alignment process. First you and mount need to agree that certain mark (here 12 o'clock) "is up" - or at highest position on a circle. You ensure this by placing Polaris in circle center and then just moving up via alt movement of head - until you reach top of the circle and then rotating circle until 12 is at Polaris.

Then controller can simply turn RA axis until 12 mark get where Polaris should be.

6. Using alt and az polar alignment controls - put Polaris at new 12 o'clock position - mind those three circles and year markers - try to get it right.

7. After you are done and before you want to do actual alignment of goto system - return scope to home position (scope home position, not polar home position) - that means - scope up and pointing towards Polaris. Now you can begin goto alignment.

 

Btw, don't worry if polar scope 12 o'clock mark is not "up" with the mount - it depends how it is installed at the factory - and you can end up with CW bar being to the side or even up. Sometimes it is easier to choose one of other markers - like 9 o'clock or 6 o'clock to align on - just make sure that you use the same marker throughout procedure.

[Wyvernp]

20 minutes ago, monkeyboy said:

1) When I perform the polar slignment, my reticule isn't the 'right way up' compared to a normal clock.  The markings are visible, but instead of 12 at the top, 12 is rotated (I forget exactly how much).  Does the reticule have to be oriented like a real clock to work?  Or if Polaris should be at 3, for example, do I put it 3 as marked on the reticule or 3 in comparison to a normal clock?  I doubt this is the issue I'm facing but it would be useful to confirm.

I have this issue with the EQ6R as well, I've not found a way to rotate it to the correct orientation. Whilst yes, it's just a clock but finding the right angle to set polaris compared to the position on the app can be a struggle (for me anyway) I with there were a way on the PS Align app to rotate the markings to match my scope. 

I think I'll be purchasing a polemaster within a month or 2.

[Neil H]

Hi get these 2 apps the first is polar alignment pro you can do a day time alignment with this app and will show you what you polar scope should look like through the polar scope the second is synscanlnit2.1 this  is free and gives you all the info you need for the hand set it will also give you the polar scope view as well so you know you have it right , go into the hand set and clear the PAE  data , after you do your star alignment go to you first target of its out press escape then press and hold escape button you will get a message to say centre object in eyepiece use buttons I hand controller once it's aligned press enter it then stored this data in the PAE  the more times you do this the better it gets mine used to be miles off now it's only mm in eyepiece

Edited April 27, 2020 by Neil H

[Padraic M]

Hi Chris, I'm not an expert on this by any means but I struggled for quite a while trying to figure out what exactly was meant by alignment. The manual writers obviously think that what they write is obvious - which it probably is if you already know what you're doing - but I think they skip a few essential concepts.

As I understand it, there three separate steps: (1) mount levelling, (2) polar alignment and (3) scope (star) alignment. From your original post, it sounds like you're almost there.

Before you start, make sure the finderscope and main scope are perfectly aligned. I use a roof line or mountain ridge (depending on location) to do this as at least you can align in one dimension and keep that steady while you line up the second dimension (where the roof meets a chimney or antenna, or the mountain ridge has a distincitive rock or tree).

1. Mount levelling - fairly straightforward using the bubble level on the HEQ5 head, with the mount head attached to the tripod, with the accessory tray nut just loosened a turn.

2. Polar alignment is concerned solely with making sure the RA axis of the mount head is pointed at the celestial North Pole.  It can be done with or without the scope on the mount - the scope is irrelevant for this step. iirc the reticule rotates as you rotate the head on the RA axis. As mentioned above, 12o'c does not have to be in the 'up' position but it makes the process more intuitive. The key data from the handset is "Polaris position in Polar Scope", rather than the "Hour angle of Polaris". It's important to get the set-up data correct e.g. date and time, daylight savings, GPS coordinates etc. I use the PolarFinder smartphone app to give me that data, as I can't trust myself to get it right each time in the dark, and I can forget that West is minus! Use the alt and az adjustment screws to get Polaris in the correct reticule position. Again, PolarFinder gives you an indication of what it should look like. In answer to your question, Polaris needs to be at the given time position on the clockface, as if 12o'c was in the 'up' position, regardless of where 12o'c actually is.  As soon as you have P in the correct place tighten the alt/az nuts (and the accessory tray nut) and check that you haven't knocked the alignment out in doing so. Tightening the accessory tray nut can sometimes upset the levelling of the tripod (by spreading the legs a tad further) so be careful.

p.s. if you have the scope mounted during PA, don't bother checking if you can see Polaris. That really confused me in the beginning because I thought I needed to have Polaris aligned in the main scope in the same way as I had it in the polar finder.

3. Star alignment is concerned with aligning the scope with the RA and Dec axes - essentially, telling Synscan where the scope is pointing wrt the mount head alignment. I usually use 2-star alignment, but that's mostly because in my home location I have a narrow North-South view of the sky, and finding three stars to align to is usually not possible. Carole's point about cone error etc. is true. When you mount the scope, you can set the RA and Dec axes as best you can to Home Position if you want, but it doesn't matter. It just means that Synscan's first attempt to locate your first star may be 'in the general area' as opposed to completely out, but you need to adjust using the handset anyway. Don't be put out if Synscan is completely off. Just adjust with the handset buttons using the finder scope, and then the main scope to fine-tune. The second star goto should be reasonably close if the PA is good and your first star was found. When you get "Alignment Successful", try to goto some well-known, bright star to make sure you're ok, and set your focus. You might need to redo the alignment again if you're not happy. I also like to redo the alignment from time to time (every hour, or with a significant change of target) but at this stage I'm quite happy with my alignment results.

I have to say, I came close to giving up astronomy in the early days/weeks because I just couldn't crack alignment. It was really frustrating, and made me feel stupid, and even though there are lots of guides and videos available, none of them did it for me. The penny dropping was that steps 2 and 3 above are separate steps, with different objectives.

hth

Padraic.

[Cornelius Varley]

2 hours ago, monkeyboy said:

2) When I perform polar alignment I have to rotate the scope through the declination axis so that the polar scope barrel isn't blocked.  Once I've done that, do I need to rotate it back before I move onto the star aslignment process?  Should I rotate the scope so that Polaris is visible through it

Once polar aligned the telescope needs to be returned to the "home" position, counterweight bar pointing down and telescope pointing at the north celestial pole (not Polaris)

17 minutes ago, Padraic M said:

1. Mount levelling - fairly straightforward using the bubble level on the HEQ5 head, with the mount head attached to the tripod, with the accessory tray nut just loosened a turn.

The mount doesn't need to be precisely level, somewhere close to level is sufficient. 

[vlaiv]

22 minutes ago, Cornelius Varley said:

The mount doesn't need to be precisely level, somewhere close to level is sufficient. 

I did not read other responses, but for method I outlined above - it is important to have tripod level as any tilt on tripod base (left/right) translates into error in start marker position - same as if time was not properly set.

I say get it reasonably level (bubble should be centered) but don't obsess about it.

[monkeyboy]

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond.  It's much appreciated.  Distilling it all down, I think the biggest mistake I made was that I left the scope rotated along the dec axis before trying to find Arcturus.  Had I then used the handset controls to go find it, it probably would have adjusted itself and been fine but I was so thrown by being so far off that I stopped.  I'm using the 'ScopeTool' app on my phone, and I'm pretty sure the tripod/mount is level when I start.  It sounds like I made the right decision regarding the reticule.  Hoping for clear skies tonight (can anyone remember an April so dry?) so I can go confirm.  Thanks again.

[Erling G-P]

1 hour ago, vlaiv said:

I did not read other responses, but for method I outlined above - it is important to have tripod level as any tilt on tripod base (left/right) translates into error in start marker position - same as if time was not properly set.

I say get it reasonably level (bubble should be centered) but don't obsess about it.

I can confirm this.  Used Vlaiv's method at one point, where my tripod wasn't exactly level - just a little bit off. This gave me a much more imprecise polar alignment than when I'm just eyeballing the rotation to get 12 o'clock at the top.

I wouldn't trust the bubble level in the HEQ5 Pro mount - mine is way off.  Instead I use a long spirit level on the tripod top, which I place east-west & north-south.

Initially I polar aligned without the scope on the mount, but now I always have it mounted, for fear things might give a little when I start piling on weight, of if I should accidently move the mount a tiny bit in the process.

+1 for the Synscaninit app - having a graphical representation of where Polaris should be placed on the clock dial and with regards to the year circles is a tremendous help IMHO.  Note that it defaults to the 'old' type of polar scope view, so you have to change it to get the one with the clock dial.

Another tool I have found very helpful, is an angle finder for the polar scope.  Much more comfortable position possible, and it has a 2.5x magnification setting, which makes it much easier to place Polaris precisely.

[Paul M]

4 hours ago, monkeyboy said:

Polaris on the little circle in the right place (or at least, I think so - see my first question below).
So I moved onto the handset alignment process.  One star alignment - Arcturus.  Off we go - mount whirs into life, starts slewing and stops... pointing nowhere near Arcturus.  It's closer to pointing at Vega!  I try a few more times - no joy.  Spend a little time manually scanning the sky.  Trudge back inside and scratch my head.

Synscan is very robust and quite forgiving.

For visual use and until the various pennies drop, some of the complexities of setting up for successful GOTO operation can be glossed over (ie forgot!). Down the line you can refine and add steps as required for your desired accuracy, such as imaging where precise polar alignment is necessary for accurate unguided tracking and even for guided longer exposures. 

What do I do for visual alignment? Well, I've never looked for or used a level on my EQ6 mount. All I do is get Polaris somewhere in the big circle, never used the little circle yet and that's me done with the mechanics ( I do set the hour angle when I've got the camera attached). Indeed, I've had successful Synscan operation without even looking through the Polar scope. Just plonked the mount on the grass kind of facing north 😲😎 

I usually do 2 or 3 star alignment. As in your experience, the first alignment star is anywhere but in the eyepiece! I've even had the scope pointing at the ground in the wrong direction because I never use the home position. If I've told it to align on Capella it'll likely land anywhere but Synscan thinks you're on Capella so make it so. Undo the clutches wizz the scope round by hand to get Capella in the field of a low power eyepiece (use you finderscope if it's set up) then tighten the clutches and use the handset to center Capella and accept that. The second alignment star should land somewhere in the field of view, use the handset to centralise it and accept (don't release the clutches for anything but the initial hand slew to the 1st star). The 3rd star should land quite nicely and if nothing else is a confirmation that GOTO is good to go(to)!

There are no Synscan police, no laws of alignment. Don't worry about it, just get the thing working for you and enjoy the simple pleasures of GOTO.  Don't get bogged down so early in your game that you are put off. Save the angst for later on as you progress!

[monkeyboy]

7 hours ago, Paul M said:

(don't release the clutches for anything but the initial hand slew to the 1st star).

That was q3   I was saving that for another day!  

Okay, I think I understand now.  I reckon I confused the software by having the main scope pointing in the wrong direction at the start.  Has I then done as you say and manually pointed it to the selected star it probably would have been fine.  I was over thinking it, confused by how far off it was.  

Of course it's raining tonight...