NUC at the scope. Best practise setup?

[Rocket Stars]

16 minutes ago, stash_old said:

WiFi is just a pain in the neck - wired works 99.9999999% of the time. Your problems with Anydesk would have been the same with any other remote desk software.

Its like building a house - bad foundations = falling down house.

It is very very rare I ever need a screen or keyboard etc - normally when I have a Windows Update problem.

Look up "headless" via for more information.

Hint try things out in situ during the day first as that is the only way to show up any problems. 🙂

I have a very stable Unifi wifi setup and Lan switch configuration. (think it was first time rebooted sin installation about 2,5 years ago) Although no range testing outside my business. Still have good range outside, I think it was the aluminium ports that shielded the connection outside. Wifi is preferred way for a easy and resonable fast setup. 

Bad foundation and windows update problem. Thats the reason a pc solution wasn't my first option. (and my limited windows know how) But my favorable astro software is best running, or only running windows. So that is what it has to be.

The hint is noted. Not my usual style. 🤭 But, I realized late, a rare night with resonable clear sky was coming up. So I rescheduled my planned work for the evening. And set up the scope while it got dark.  Yes it was a cold and frustrating night. But otherwise I had worked to about midnight. Then writing on this forum before going to sleep. In a positive way, I got time with my hobby, and got notes on what to fix! 

To clearify why I need a remote set up with some automation. Is if Im going to get this interest to work for me in the long run. (I've been at it before)  It is because I run a large format printing business. Works pretty much 6-7 days a week. 16 houers days is more common than unusual. 8hr working days, 5 days a week, is a future dream! 

 

 

 

[Rocket Stars]

41 minutes ago, noah4x4 said:

I use a 16 megapixel resolution Atik Horizon camera on Hyperstar for EAA (EEVA) in an end to end wireless 4K UHD system.

This was challenging, and lots of things failed along my journey, but it now works perfectly. Here are some tips....

1. Forget long USB3 or HDMI cables (even active). If you want to use cable, adopt Cat6a cable. 

2. I use a dual computer system over a WiFi network using remote desktop (but could be cabled). This requires a lot more thought than it at first appears. It's easy with low specification cameras, but with higher specification, high data demanding, notably if you want to enjoy a 4K UHD display at the terminal point, it is challenging, but I cracked it.

3. Don't underestimate NUC CPU and RAM requirements. My original seventh generation i5 even with 8 Gb RAM was too slow. I now use an 8i7 with 16 Gb RAM. 

4. I found Windows 10 Pro Remote Desktop with RemoteFX compression disabled (via Group Profiles) is more reliable than Teamviewer, VNC or others. Having control over RemoteFX compression helps eliminate the WiFi challenges mentioned by Stash_Old. Free up the data flow and remote desktop technology works great even where high data transfer is involved.

5. Even so, set up a dedicated 5Ghz WiFi network. I use multiple BT WholeHome discs that form a MESH network independent from my regular home network. 

6. The regular 2.4 Ghz channel is too cluttered in urban areas to be reliable. Prior to success I tried separating the dual channels in my Home Hub 6 Router to force a 5Ghz connection, but it remained flaky. Strategically placed overlapping  WholeHome discs now embrace my house and garden and are rock solid.

7. I run Sequence Generator Pro, MKIT20 autofocuser and CPWI on the scope NUC.

I think I have run into every brick wall possible along  this journey. You will read of people having success with modest computing power using Linux, Indi, Ubuntu, but Windows 10 is incredibly system resource hungry. I spent ££££'s on upgrading cables, WiFi and similar until I realised step 3 was my barrier to success. 

 

 

Thank you so much for your reply! 

No cables is a very desirable way. My lan is only cat6. But as said. I prefer not to.. Especial this time of the year!   My Unifi wifi spots is a good set up. Just need to move one to a better location, permanently. And Also going to make room in the garden for a better location. Kind of preparing the lady in the house, that a peir will be a great feature in the garden. Drawback on 5Ghz is the more limited range. Hmm.. maby have to reconsider adding another Unifi spot. If still not reliable. A dedicated wifi setup is the way to go. As I live in very lightpoluted area. Im planing to have the scope ready to put in the car and go away to a darker location.

For now, 4K direct connection is not a priority. But is a plan for the future, maby step 3.  I just want to get a reliably set up and working. I have plans for upgrading the camera. But for now, I want the set up work first. A camera with a bit bigger sensor is step 2. When step 1 is working reliably enough.  (I want to get there faster than what seemingly is reasonable, impossible especially without the support of the good and knowledge of the people in this great forum  )  

I also have the MKIT 20 wired. CPWI is way better than I thought. My SkyPortal WiFi dongle is not working, but docent matter. But im seriously considering StarSense. If plate solving docent work good enough. I was thinking some hacker should Figure out how to auto guide with StarSence.  Wold be a great tool then. Its a lens and camera, so it should be possible!? 

I wish you a great weekend noha! 😀

p.s 

Hyperstar or rasa, is a way to be effective in those rare clear nights! 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Rocket Stars

[noah4x4]

It has been suggested a dozen times in this and other  Forums, but Starsense will never auto-guide. Its camera resolution too low and focal length wrong. 

The wired MKIT20 is great. But do not buy its WiFi unit. I did, and it is much easier to operate if wired whilst accessed over WiFi remote desktop, just like any of your other applications. 

A 4K UHD display obviously isn't strictly necessary. But the tips I offered will help even with 1080p HD. But I didn't see the  point in investing £££'s in a camera that exceeds 4K then display its output on a quarter of that pixel depth. 

It also helps to understand where on the EEVA scale between 'observer' and 'imager' you lie.  If an imager, it probably won't matter if capturing and processing images take a while. A slower processor will suffice.  However, if an 'observer' like me, you will desire near live, real time stacked imaging. On Hyperstar, extreme short stacked exposures are feasible, but the data demands are huge. That needs more computing ooomph. 

[Skipper Billy]

On 29/02/2020 at 09:52, Rocket Stars said:

It has 4 USB 3 ports, one powered for charging capabillities. I think is good for now. But for future use ov filterwheel I will maby, need mor ports Ofcoarse. Looking in to buying a Pegasus Astro powerbox, of some sort

If you need more USB ports you can just change the lid on a NUC - it takes 10 minutes and gives you another two USB ports - https://simplynuc.co.uk/nuc-lids/

I have all six ports in use - no problems.

 

[Rocket Stars]

On 06/03/2020 at 15:50, Skipper Billy said:

If you need more USB ports you can just change the lid on a NUC - it takes 10 minutes and gives you another two USB ports - https://simplynuc.co.uk/nuc-lids/

I have all six ports in use - no problems.

 

Very nice rig and setup! 

I did have som more time last weekend. But the seeing was almost none. 

Have been away on business this week. But this night is looking to be very good! 

I did solve some of the connections problems last weekend. A few setups in win 10, and Anydesk solved the timely shutdown. Obviously it was power saving settings in win 10. .. 

But, I noticed the NUC´s internal wifi antenna, is not up to the task. When slewing the scope to some angles. Wifi communication drops, and Anydsek disconnects. (with wifi spot just 5 meters away) 

Fast solution, must be to have the computer on the tripod. With it in a good direction to network. Il be looking for a external wifi adapter with reasonable good antennas. Its possible to do them diy, As I have done to my earlier FPV drone escapades.

But Ill think I go buy something. This is the advantage of the Beelink mini PC, It has a external antenna. Wish must give a more stable connection when not in use indoors. 

 

Now, I also hope to get the hyperstar collimation done properly tonite! 

[stash_old]

19 hours ago, Rocket Stars said:

Beelink mini PC

Check on Cloudy Nights the old BEE model may have had unidirectional aerials but they behaved poorly - not sure about newer models!  🙂

[Rocket Stars]

Finally.. after some time, I got to test the NUC set up again. 

Mounted it on the tripod with the best possible angle towards the wifispot. It ran for almost 6hrs without a glitch. AnyDesk performed as it should. 

Happy to have found the problem. I have to look in to the best areal solution, for a reliabilitet connection. 

[noah4x4]

I noticed that my NUCs internal WiFi antenna wasn't great. So replaced it with a better USB plug in 802.11ac external WiFi adapter with higher quality antenna, cost around £12. It's easy to disable the internal and adapt the external via Device Manager.

However, this inspired me to go further....

I now plug my Celestron SkyPortal external WiFi accessory into an AUX port and connect it to 'WiFi1' (the internal adapter). As the SkyPortal's feeble signal only has to travel two feet it works, and avoids a messy serial to USB adapter when embracing CPWI. I then connect 'WiFi2' (external adapter) to my primary WAN. 

[stash_old]

2 hours ago, noah4x4 said:

SkyPortal's feeble signal only has to travel two feet it works

Actually this is not a good ides, having more than one AP can create problems as this extract from Cisco plainly states (other vendors also concur ! ). 

"The placement of the APs at the correct places is an important factor that accounts in the extension of the coverage area of the AP. Too many APs in the same vicinity can create radio congestion and interference, and reduce the throughput.

 

A careful site survey can determine the best placement of APs for maximum radio coverage and throughput."

[sloz1664]

On 29/02/2020 at 11:02, Rocket Stars said:

Just to clerify. 

I do not wish a pi vs.. or ascom vs indi debate.

Again, its great. But does not work well with some of my gear.  I have chosen gear I want, or got. And adapt my processing unit based on that. Just to clearify. I have been using both pc and Mac, since late 80ies. I do prefer Mac, just because its OS. But still, there is other options that is better some times. 

I have a workstation running a image/graphics rip, for large format prints. Back in the day, it was run on a incredibly expensive unix based SUN server. Over the years, software migrated to Windows and PC based hardwares, So I use that. 

SunOS 😱 Many years ago I worked as a design engineer working on 3D CAD models using a SunOS unix based system. It was so slow compared to the latest computer equipment. I could have completed a 1000 piece jigsaw before it rendered a 3D model.

Steve

[Rocket Stars]

49 minutes ago, sloz1664 said:

SunOS 😱 Many years ago I worked as a design engineer working on 3D CAD models using a SunOS unix based system. It was so slow compared to the latest computer equipment. I could have completed a 1000 piece jigsaw before it rendered a 3D model.

Steve

Heh! Thats the reason a lot has moved over to other systems. It was stupid expensive. Probably worth the expense in the beginning. When PC ect. wasn't in other than entusiasts homes. 

Problem was that a lot of the software was only produced for one system. Think we paid about 35.000 euros for the last one. A cpl of years later, we scraped it and got a Mac server for the 10th of the price. Think it was around the millennial.

Happy biz back then. Everybody was going crazy about the Y2K "bug"  We got orders and orders about "Y2k certified" 🤣

Edited March 22, 2020 by Rocket Stars

[noah4x4]

4 hours ago, stash_old said:

Actually this is not a good ides, having more than one AP can create problems as this extract from Cisco plainly states (other vendors also concur ! ). 

"The placement of the APs at the correct places is an important factor that accounts in the extension of the coverage area of the AP. Too many APs in the same vicinity can create radio congestion and interference, and reduce the throughput.

 

A careful site survey can determine the best placement of APs for maximum radio coverage and throughput."

Generally that is true Stash-Old, notably for the 2.4 Ghz channel. But it works fine for me in an area where urban clutter is extreme and has been troublesome. My third generation SkyPortal dongle is useless beyond 5 yards, but it's better than my previous second generation dongle and pathetic first generation internal Evolution WiFi. Here is why I believe I have succeeded....

The SkyPortal dongle connects to WiFi1 using only the 2.4 Ghz channel. My NUC connects to my WAN via WiFi2 using only the 5Ghz Channel. I deliberately don't use a dual band router. In my WAN, I can isolate the channels.

The 2.4 Ghz channel is horribly cluttered but over two feet as employed in my set up, seems to work fine. The 5 Ghz channel has (in theory) lesser range than 2.4Ghz, but by using multiple MESH disks, I have created a strong network that embraces my entire house and garden.

But as per your recommendation, it did require a "careful site survey", in my case investing time to find the best position for the MESH discs, none of which are more than five yards apart. Also, none have to negotiate the metal foil lined plasterboard insulation of my house. I have them in line of sight with no obstacles except glazing. It did take me an extra disk to get around this unexpected obstacle, but it seems that reflective foil insulation is now very common in the UK. 

Edited March 22, 2020 by noah4x4

[stash_old]

4 hours ago, noah4x4 said:

Generally that is true Stash-Old, notably for the 2.4 Ghz channel. But it works fine for me in an area where urban clutter is extreme and has been troublesome. My third generation SkyPortal dongle is useless beyond 5 yards, but it's better than my previous second generation dongle and pathetic first generation internal Evolution WiFi. Here is why I believe I have succeeded....

The SkyPortal dongle connects to WiFi1 using only the 2.4 Ghz channel. My NUC connects to my WAN via WiFi2 using only the 5Ghz Channel. I deliberately don't use a dual band router. In my WAN, I can isolate the channels.

The 2.4 Ghz channel is horribly cluttered but over two feet as employed in my set up, seems to work fine. The 5 Ghz channel has (in theory) lesser range than 2.4Ghz, but by using multiple MESH disks, I have created a strong network that embraces my entire house and garden.

But as per your recommendation, it did require a "careful site survey", in my case investing time to find the best position for the MESH discs, none of which are more than five yards apart. Also, none have to negotiate the metal foil lined plasterboard insulation of my house. I have them in line of sight with no obstacles except glazing. It did take me an extra disk to get around this unexpected obstacle, but it seems that reflective foil insulation is now very common in the UK. 

 It would make sense that using a split band (2.4hz/5ghz) will help as will doing the "leg work" on finding optimum positioning of the "mesh" points.

Yes the foil would cause a problem - funnily it can also help as it bounces the wireless signal - so long as its going in the right direction.

But this set up still  has the problem of costs , complexity , reliability ,throughput etc compared to a single 1gb wired connection but that's you choice and  if  your are happy with that AND it works - great stuff - truly happy for you !  

It would perhaps help others perhaps if you could give an idea of the "ballpark" cost involved BEFORE they go down this route 🙂 

[noah4x4]

Sure Stash-Old......glad for others to learn from my experiences (good and bad!).

The fact is that 'cable' proved wholly impractical in my location. I tried USB2 and USB3 and I wasted a fortune on active cables and powered hubs that didn't deliver over the required distance.  Cat6a cable worked fine, but it was a nuisance, trip hazard and I aspired to do all by WiFi. Celestron WiFi was pathetic, and If we add up the cost of redundant cables, old less effective WiFi extenders, Second and Third Generation SkyPortal dongles, my investment in this project was significant before ever finding a solution!  But I am now succesfully doing something that is probably quite rare....

I now run an end to end wholly wireless 4k UHD system from 16 megapixel camera to 4K UHD monitor. That takes a huge amount of computing power especially if using Hyperstar and stacking (say) multiple 5 second exposures. Simply replicating the 4K screen indoors over Remote Desktop requires huge computing ooomph. 

My investment in twin NUC computers, WiFi MESH disks and indoor monitor etc is circa £1,500, which is if course expensive compared to cable to a single 1080p HD laptop. However, the cheapest 4K UHD Laptop is around £1,800, and I have the created the equivalent of that but with larger screen plus comprehensive remote control over WiFi. A comparable proprietory solution such as Eagle 3 Pro costs around £1,795 excluding second laptop. In that context, I reckon I have developed a decent DIY value rig. 

However, was creating a 4K UHD system worthwhile? Possibly not for regular AP. The difference between 4K UHD and 1080p HD is marginal if pursuing regular AP.  But that begs the question, why buy a megapixel camera like Atik Horizon, ASI294 or similar if not using its full 4k display potential? 

Where having a 4K UHD display is worthwhile is with Hyperstar when you remove your secondary mirror. That reduces magnification  x 5 and offers a huge FOV. The downside is you then need more camera magnification. Having more pixels available from camera and display device means you can zoom deeper. The advantage of Hyperstar is that images form 25x faster, and you don't need wedge/GEM, polar alignment or guiding.   4K UHD is particularly great for EAA (EEVA).  But not cheap to implement.