Mount within £2500 range

[souls33k3r]

Hi All, 

I'm potentially looking at an alternative mount for astrophotography within £2500 range which should last me a good 5 - 10 years without much maintenance and hassle. I already have a CEM60-EC but that has caused me a lot of issues with guiding and even though my Total RMS has always been between 0.6" - 0.9" but has failed to produce round stars. Because I trust FLO, it will have to be from FLO themselves. 

What is your experience with either the CEM60 or EQ6-R mounts or any others that come within this price range? Any issues? How long you've had the mount for? Please be brutally honest about your mount because I wouldn't want any hidden issues that I might later find. I've had my NEQ6 Pro which served me well for a good 3 years before I stupidly decided to sell it. 

My two scopes that I will be using are Esprit 100 (550mm FL) guided using 60mm guidescope and Celestron EdgeHD 8" (1422mm FL with reducer and 2032mm FL without reducer) again with guidescope or an OAG at some point. I don't plan on using any more than 5 - 10min exposures.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Hallingskies]

I was going to say NEQ6 but I see you’ve been there, done that.  I have had one for 10 years, have done nothing to it and (depending on the seeing) got anywhere between 0.6 and 1 rms.  Star shapes with my 600mm focal length and ATIK 460 were just fine.  Umm’d and aaah’d about belt modding but picked up a second hand Avalon Linear instead.  Lovely and quiet but better guiding?  Not sure yet.  If the Avalon works out long term I’ll be letting the NEQ6 go cheap, for anyone who fancies giving it an overdue 10 year service.

I also have a 25 year old Vixen GPDX.  I fitted the Skywatcher upgrade to it and got 0.6 rms out of it the one time I tried it (I usually use it as a semi-grab and go for planets).  I did think about putting it in my obbo, but hey, the Avalon is shiny and red and Italian and it purrs like a cat...

You often see the GPDX’s coming up for grabs second hand.  It’s easy to adjust most of the backlash out of them and then they guide well.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Hallingskies
Typo

[tooth_dr]

There is a used EQ8 for sale on here for under £1900.  Got to be worth considering?

[souls33k3r]

6 minutes ago, Hallingskies said:

I was going to say NEQ6 but I see you’ve been there, done that.  I have had one for 10 years, have done nothing to it and (depending on the seeing) got anywhere between 0.6 and 1 rms.  Star shapes with my 600mm focal length and ATIK 460 were just fine.  Umm’d and aaah’d about belt modding but picked up a second hand Avalon Linear instead.  Lovely and quiet but better guiding?  Not sure yet.  If the Avalon works out long term I’ll be letting the NEQ6 go cheap, for anyone who fancies giving it an overdue 10 year service.

I also have a 25 year old Vixen GPDX.  I fitted the Skywatcher upgrade to it and got 0.6 rms out of it the one time I tried it (I usually use it as a semi-grab and go for planets).  I did think about putting it in my obbo, but hey, the Avalon is shiny and red and purrs like a Ferrari...

You often see the GPDX’s coming up for grabs second hand.  It’s easy to adjust most of the backlash out of them and then they guide well.

Yeah been there, done that, got the T-shirt with the NEQ6 mount. It did help me guide better but the itch for better guiding, having tight round stars and eventually leading to sharper images led me to sell that mount and go for the CEM60-EC. I would've spent on Avalon mount but FLO didn't stock them and even if they did, it was slightly above the price of the new mount I was hoping to pay and limit myself (Trust me, it wasn't easy limiting myself to a sensible spend). But I've heard good things about the Linear mounts. 

Vixen mounts are something I personally have not seen much in the AP business and I wonder why. Might do a few searches on astrobin. 

6 minutes ago, tooth_dr said:

There is a used EQ8 for sale on here for under £1900.  Got to be worth considering?

Cheers mate, that unfortunately is just too much money to spend on a second hand mount. I'd be happy to pay for a second hand if FLO offered them on their offers page as a second hand. At least this way I will have peace of mind about a reputable supplier such as FLO. 

[tooth_dr]

2 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

Cheers mate, that unfortunately is just too much money to spend on a second hand mount. I'd be happy to pay for a second hand if FLO offered them on their offers page as a second hand. At least this way I will have peace of mind about a reputable supplier such as FLO. 

No worries,  I did read that bit about FLO, but some how it didnt register in my head lol.  Ok, so the only observation I will make is that my own EQ6 is 10 years old, and @Hallingskies is ten years old, and they just work ok.  On that logic I see no reason not to buy that fresh used EQ8, known to work 100%.  But good luck on the search.  I too have that itch to upgrade, but at my current FL (500-600mm) and pixel size, there really isnt any need.

[Hallingskies]

17 minutes ago, tooth_dr said:

Ok, so the only observation I will make is that my own EQ6 is 10 years old, and @Hallingskies is ten years old, and they just work ok. 

100% agree with that.  Maybe you could just buy a new NEQ6 or its newer iteration, the EQ6-R.  Only reason I put mine to one side is the Avalon came up and the backlash was definitely getting worse on the NEQ6 - but still nothing PHD couldn’t handle.  Depends on what loading or focal length you want to run at I guess.

I just recall that the NEQ6 worked well straight out of the box with default PHD settings.  It is really responsive to guiding.  It wasn’t often that I felt a need to tweak PHD.  Polar alignment wasn’t helped by those awful alt-az bolts but I gather the EQ6-R is much slicker in that respect.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Hallingskies

[discardedastro]

EQ6-R's alt bolts are at least accessible but the bolts are still not terribly granular - I find it very hard to achieve fine polar alignment. I'd say that my EQ6-R's a fine mount, insofar as it's worked well when aligned well. I've fettled it a bit to reduce backlash and it does demand perfect balance but once you're there it'll perform as advertised.

A used EQ8 at that price point would certainly be compelling if I were buying new. I think beyond the EQ6-R/8/CEM60/80 level of performance (stepper motors, belt+worm drive, encoder-equipped or not) you're realistically looking at friction drive mounts like the Mesu, which will break your budget.

I would say that I've got an EQ6-R Pro and still have non-round stars with .6" guiding at 0.5"/px imaging scale - I'm not sure I'd leap to the mount's performance alone as a diagnostic of oval stars. In my case I'm looking at my guiding (probably moving to an OAG+higher-res guidecam).

[alan potts]

I have a AZ EQ 6 as indeed do many others, It guides very nicely without setting the world on fire at 805mm and I dare say it will guide my 1M  SW 190mmM/N, however 1400mm is a fair bit more. I could easily talk myself out of going for a new CEM here. The trouble is there is not a massive choice in the spend area, I would have though you already have the best offering in the shape of the encodered CEM you have, but for sure my mount get better stars than you showed the other day, I really feel this has to go back and be looked at. 

I am sure Vixen mounts are decent quality but few of us seem to have them, maybe expensive for what weight carring you get compared to SW and Ioptron, even Losmany are more costly and there seems little new in any design in them from 10 years ago when I wanted one and was given a year lead time.

Alan

[souls33k3r]

You guys are not wrong with the choices that I do have here within this price range. Yes Mesu would've been a lovely mount to stretch for but looking realistically it would've been way out of budget (twice over my initial budget). 

I have had experience with NEQ6 and those Alt Az bolts are horrendous. Backlash will creep up sooner rather than later and that's something one wants to avoid. 

EQ6-R is a definite step up, carrying handle is a blessing because this mount weighs a lot and picking my old NEQ6 with a bear hug was an exercise for sure. Also I believe EQ6-R has belts which is an after market add-on for NEQ6 mounts so should reduce backlash. But the question is, how easy is it to tune the mount to minimise the backlash? I don't know that. 

The CEM60 is a beautiful mount, silky smooth. I already have the EC version which I'm trying to replace. The issue I know is to do with the firmware the EC has because unguided images are fine'ish but I didn't buy that mount for unguided imaging, it was to guide and let encoders help with the guiding but so far the firmware is the only let down factor hence the question to all. Other than that, CEM60-EC is a very well built mount. I know people who have the CEM60 mounts such as (sorry for tagging) @fwm891 has one, @Wiu-Wiuhas one too and so does @ChrisWhite who I would like to hear what they have to say about their mounts. 

I'm looking for some brutally honest reviews of their mounts and if there is anything I need to be careful of in terms of guiding and not being able to produce round stars due to guiding. I don't know why but I'm not a Celestron mount fan. I've only seen AVX in flesh which I'm never going to buy because the body is plastic in most parts. Other than that I have not seen one being used. 

Thanks

 

 

[Wiu-Wiu]

With the scopes you have, that CEM 60 EC of yours should produce perfect images... 

Do you have a topic about your issues? There might be something else interfering. 

 

I am putting my Esprit 120 and C11 Edge on it, and I'm quite happy with the first results. Unguided results with my old Meade 10" were also quite stunning. I have 0.3" RMS

C11 200x30s unguided

10" ACF guided 8x5 min

10" ACF 7x5 min

I even put a 10" newton on it:

 

I am still getting to know my setup - tweaking distances, guidescopes, etc etc, but I still have 2 weekends and a whole week of astro fun in dark locations planned for the remainder of this year, so hopefully I can produce some more images by december. 

(it's been mostly cloudy since I got my Esprit, and now my garden is a mess because of construction work, so it has been quiet...) 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Wiu-Wiu

[souls33k3r]

19 minutes ago, Wiu-Wiu said:

With the scopes you have, that CEM 60 EC of yours should produce perfect images... 

Do you have a topic about your issues? There might be something else interfering. 

 

I am putting my Esprit 120 and C11 Edge on it, and I'm quite happy with the first results. Unguided results with my old Meade 10" were also quite stunning. I have 0.3" RMS

C11 200x30s unguided

10" ACF guided 8x5 min

10" ACF 7x5 min

I even put a 10" newton on it:

 

I am still getting to know my setup - tweaking distances, guidescopes, etc etc, but I still have 2 weekends and a whole week of astro fun in dark locations planned for the remainder of this year, so hopefully I can produce some more images by december. 

(it's been mostly cloudy since I got my Esprit, and now my garden is a mess because of construction work, so it has been quiet...) 

 

 

 

"Should" is a good word but unfortunately the firmware that the mount came with is fighting with the guiding software. I can not say how long will it take iOptron to fix this issue but I cannot be wasting night after night to even get one decent sub out of it. 

How long have you had your mount for? Did you during your guided imaging had to throw away any subs due to stars not being perfectly round which has been due to the mount not playing ball? Also what firmware is your mount on if you don't mind me asking? 

Thank you. 

[alan potts]

Seeing Wiu Wiu's results I am beginning to think buy the encoder version and throw my guiding gear in the bin, amazing results on long F/L's which are never going to be easy meat and test more experienced people than me.

Does any one know if you will get similar results with guiding on a basic mount?

Alan

[discardedastro]

3 hours ago, souls33k3r said:

EQ6-R is a definite step up, carrying handle is a blessing because this mount weighs a lot and picking my old NEQ6 with a bear hug was an exercise for sure. Also I believe EQ6-R has belts which is an after market add-on for NEQ6 mounts so should reduce backlash. But the question is, how easy is it to tune the mount to minimise the backlash? I don't know that. 

FWIW, I've spent about two afternoons doing backlash adjustment now and found the process quite straightforward - it's a simple matter of wobbling things as you drive them to find the spot with the most play, undoing four big bolts ever so slightly on the worm bodies and then adjusting two grub screws, re-tightening the four bolts and driving it 360 degrees to ensure there's no binding. I've attached the instructions for it. At 0.5x guiding rate PHD2 only uses a 400ms backlash compensation pulse.

I'm curious when you say the guiding software is fighting with the firmware. Could you expand a little more on the behaviour you're seeing and how you have things set up?

SW_EQ6-R_backlash_adjustment.pdf

[souls33k3r]

3 hours ago, alan potts said:

Seeing Wiu Wiu's results I am beginning to think buy the encoder version and throw my guiding gear in the bin, amazing results on long F/L's which are never going to be easy meat and test more experienced people than me.

Does any one know if you will get similar results with guiding on a basic mount?

Alan

Wiu Wiu has the non-encoder mount

1 hour ago, discardedastro said:

FWIW, I've spent about two afternoons doing backlash adjustment now and found the process quite straightforward - it's a simple matter of wobbling things as you drive them to find the spot with the most play, undoing four big bolts ever so slightly on the worm bodies and then adjusting two grub screws, re-tightening the four bolts and driving it 360 degrees to ensure there's no binding. I've attached the instructions for it. At 0.5x guiding rate PHD2 only uses a 400ms backlash compensation pulse.

I'm curious when you say the guiding software is fighting with the firmware. Could you expand a little more on the behaviour you're seeing and how you have things set up?

SW_EQ6-R_backlash_adjustment.pdf 882.01 kB · 1 download

Ah sweet, ill take a look at the document and see how easy it is. Cheers mate

[alan potts]

49 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

Wiu Wiu has the non-encoder mount

Ah sweet, ill take a look at the document and see how easy it is. Cheers mate

I mis-read that, well I have to say I am leaning very much that way towards the CEM. I still have myself to convince as I have just been out in the observatory and on the AZ EQ 6 got really rather nice guiding. My mates been down today, he is an IT guru and he has my new screen running superb with a now connection of internet to the house, he is going to fix it up next week so I can control everything from inside if I wish.

Only time tonight in90 minutes that guide was poor was M9 and this was only 20 degrees above horizon and setting, never get good guiding on this side, must be down to balance.

As stated above, this adjustment is fairly easy but take time over it, I did mine and it is much better.

Alan

[souls33k3r]

13 hours ago, alan potts said:

I mis-read that, well I have to say I am leaning very much that way towards the CEM. I still have myself to convince as I have just been out in the observatory and on the AZ EQ 6 got really rather nice guiding. My mates been down today, he is an IT guru and he has my new screen running superb with a now connection of internet to the house, he is going to fix it up next week so I can control everything from inside if I wish.

Only time tonight in90 minutes that guide was poor was M9 and this was only 20 degrees above horizon and setting, never get good guiding on this side, must be down to balance.

As stated above, this adjustment is fairly easy but take time over it, I did mine and it is much better.

Alan

Seems like you're getting really good results out of our AZ EQ6 mount. Why would you want to move away to a new territory? is it because you're larger FL scope isn't up to the mark?

Mind you, I did look at the AZ EQ6 mount myself but the extra AZ capability of the mount didn't Impress me much. 

So seems like I don't really have much choice left then. Will have to decide. 

@Wiu-Wiu, quick question mate, you using guidescopes with all of your setups or using OAG as well? 

[Wiu-Wiu]

I recently upgraded all firmware to the latest version (last month)

On the non-guided pics (30s subs) I had to ditch one in six subs on average. 

I usually don't have to throw away guided pics, if I have to it is because of external issues (I have cats that really like to bump into my tripod, for example)

 

On my apo's I use an Orion Shorttube guidescope (80mm) and I use OAG on the SCT's. 

[alan potts]

29 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

Seems like you're getting really good results out of our AZ EQ6 mount. Why would you want to move away to a new territory? is it because you're larger FL scope isn't up to the mark?

Mind you, I did look at the AZ EQ6 mount myself but the extra AZ capability of the mount didn't Impress me much. 

So seems like I don't really have much choice left then. Will have to decide. 

@Wiu-Wiu, quick question mate, you using guidescopes with all of your setups or using OAG as well? 

I have the Meade in the back of my mind to try but I don't see that I am serious with this, people have told me don't go there, but that doesn't stop the interest. Most of my scopes 115mm APO, 190mm M/N, 180mm Mak , 77mm Borg, and 70mm ED, are all under about 13KG, maybe a bit less. I just wanted a bit of refinement in the mount. The AZ EQ 6 is decent enough but I feel things could be a bit better. I am not looking for 10Micron quality at 12,000e , well not this week. I feel this is the type of mount that is required to get the best from 3M of F/L though

[souls33k3r]

1 hour ago, Wiu-Wiu said:

I recently upgraded all firmware to the latest version (last month)

On the non-guided pics (30s subs) I had to ditch one in six subs on average. 

I usually don't have to throw away guided pics, if I have to it is because of external issues (I have cats that really like to bump into my tripod, for example)

 

On my apo's I use an Orion Shorttube guidescope (80mm) and I use OAG on the SCT's. 

OK that's really helpful. Cheers mate. It's seems that the CEM60 is more of an all round performer here. Since my imaging load is never going to be over than the recommend limit by iOptron, it looks like a real winner. Which it also is lighter than the EQ6-R mount. Can't go wrong with that I suppose. 

1 hour ago, alan potts said:

I have the Meade in the back of my mind to try but I don't see that I am serious with this, people have told me don't go there, but that doesn't stop the interest. Most of my scopes 115mm APO, 190mm M/N, 180mm Mak , 77mm Borg, and 70mm ED, are all under about 13KG, maybe a bit less. I just wanted a bit of refinement in the mount. The AZ EQ 6 is decent enough but I feel things could be a bit better. I am not looking for 10Micron quality at 12,000e , well not this week. I feel this is the type of mount that is required to get the best from 3M of F/L though

Well let's admit it, we all want a 10Micron but sanity slaps us and tell us we'd be better off saving a boat load of money I have been up and down this ladder quite a lot so don't even want to think about it

[Rainer]

On 14/09/2019 at 10:16, alan potts said:

Seeing Wiu Wiu's results I am beginning to think buy the encoder version and throw my guiding gear in the bin, amazing results on long F/L's which are never going to be easy meat and test more experienced people than me.

Does any one know if you will get similar results with guiding on a basic mount?

Alan

Hi Alan,

That is wrong thinking = " ... results I am beginning to think buy the encoder version and throw my guiding gear in the bin ... "

 ... Encoders do NOT correct your imperfect Polar Aligment

... Encoders on the CEM 60EC as far as I know do not correct for atmospheric refraction ... (unless they have a built in barometric and temperature measuring device as the CEM 120EC2 have)

Get an OAG and your guiding will be much better ... I only guide through OAG my two mounts ... 

 

BTW I feel guilty that sould33k3r has problems now due to my advice and so please take this comment with a big Grain of Salt  🥶

Edited September 16, 2019 by Rainer

[ollypenrice]

On 15/09/2019 at 13:18, souls33k3r said:

 

Well let's admit it, we all want a 10Micron

I don't. I have hosted (and still host) several 10 Microns and I also host three Mesus. My own pair of mounts are both Mesus. Draw your own conclusion. If 'returns to factory' were a penalty shoot-out staged here it would be a 4-nil victory for Mesu. (Or maybe 5-nil. One was a bit ambiguous.) Just for information, I sometimes hear rumours that I have some kind of commercial relationship with Lucas Mesu. I don't. Indeed I never have had, since both my mounts were bought second hand, the first from Yves Van den Broek and the second from Bart Delsaert. How's that for transparency.

Olly

Edited September 16, 2019 by ollypenrice

[AngryDonkey]

... or you could buy that Avalon Linear that's been on ABS for a while now (not mine, I just feel a bit sorry fo it...). Second hand, slightly over budget but not by much. Excellent mount, well mine certainly is.

[souls33k3r]

On 16/09/2019 at 19:38, Rainer said:

Hi Alan,

That is wrong thinking = " ... results I am beginning to think buy the encoder version and throw my guiding gear in the bin ... "

 ... Encoders do NOT correct your imperfect Polar Aligment

... Encoders on the CEM 60EC as far as I know do not correct for atmospheric refraction ... (unless they have a built in barometric and temperature measuring device as the CEM 120EC2 have)

Get an OAG and your guiding will be much better ... I only guide through OAG my two mounts ... 

 

BTW I feel guilty that sould33k3r has problems now due to my advice and so please take this comment with a big Grain of Salt  🥶

Don't feel guilty mate, you made a grand point why one should buy an iOptron encoder mount which should've been a good thing but unless iOptron fixes the issue, I think it's not for me because I just do not have the time and patience to deal with issues right now. I just simply want to get on with imaging. 

On 16/09/2019 at 20:13, ollypenrice said:

I don't. I have hosted (and still host) several 10 Microns and I also host three Mesus. My own pair of mounts are both Mesus. Draw your own conclusion. If 'returns to factory' were a penalty shoot-out staged here it would be a 4-nil victory for Mesu. (Or maybe 5-nil. One was a bit ambiguous.) Just for information, I sometimes hear rumours that I have some kind of commercial relationship with Lucas Mesu. I don't. Indeed I never have had, since both my mounts were bought second hand, the first from Yves Van den Broek and the second from Bart Delsaert. How's that for transparency.

Olly

I know Olly, you're a really good advocate for the Mesu mounts and wish I could afford one but sadly this mount is way over my budget. 

 

On 16/09/2019 at 20:25, AngryDonkey said:

... or you could buy that Avalon Linear that's been on ABS for a while now (not mine, I just feel a bit sorry fo it...). Second hand, slightly over budget but not by much. Excellent mount, well mine certainly is.

It sure is tempting but tbh I don't like buying things second hand. I don't know why. 

 

[Rainer]

17 hours ago, souls33k3r said:

I just simply want to get on with imaging. 

Hi,

It is not quite that simple ... There is no Plug & Play equatorial mount in the same way that there is no " Simply want to get on with imaging " ... and I eat my Hat if there is one ... I am doing this Sh.t since 20 years ...

Edited September 17, 2019 by Rainer

[alan potts]

9 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

I don't. I have hosted (and still host) several 10 Microns and I also host three Mesus. My own pair of mounts are both Mesus. Draw your own conclusion. If 'returns to factory' were a penalty shoot-out staged here it would be a 4-nil victory for Mesu. (Or maybe 5-nil. One was a bit ambiguous.) Just for information, I sometimes hear rumours that I have some kind of commercial relationship with Lucas Mesu. I don't. Indeed I never have had, since both my mounts were bought second hand, the first from Yves Van den Broek and the second from Bart Delsaert. How's that for transparency.

Olly

Olly, I was just dragging a name from thin air with 10 micron, I feel in truth all of these mounts are a little bit too big for my observatory. I have just fitted it up with a little work area and nice screen, 28 inch one, and I like to sit and use my binos on the sky whilst I check things out. As it is with the AZ EQ 6 I have a nice amount of room, even if the counter-weight is sometimes up my nose. I feel any of the larger mount would throw a spanner in the works here. It is surprising how many of these top line mounts have problems reading what you and others have said, Mesu though do seem very good but again rather larger than I have space for and for a CEM 60 the wife will not need to sharpen the knives.

Alan