Impatience or Poor Service?

[GazOC]

Its not an "assassination" when someone complains that a £700 scope is sent out in that condition and lets not mince our words, Orion have a pretty poor reputation in general for this type of thing. This "oh, never mind Orion Optics always do this" attitude isn't really giving them much motivation to improve things and could well be contributing to the problem IMHO. Its seems to be seen as unreasonable when people want a £700 scope to work as advertised out of the box.....

[Astro_Baby]

If it were my company I'd want to know. I used to run a company and used to take customer complaints VERY seriously because it can be incredibly damaging to a business. My standard policy was 'if your not 100% happy we'll refund you in full - no quibbles'

For sure if someone was on a web board telling people about a bad experience I'd want to be told because I'd want the opportunity to put things right. Any responsible company would take the same view I think.

Look back up the posts - there's probably at least three people who will shop elsewhere and I know I'd probably never buy from OO now - not just on this thread but because of seeing a shabby Europa and hearing other horror stories. I think its only fair OO should have a chance to address concerns shown here and have a chance to reply.

I dont think its a case of assassination myself - I'm sure most of us would like to see a UK company do well ( and in fact that was a factor in my buying decsion ) but putting on some virtual reality goggles and pretending its all marvellous isn't a recipe for success when, judging from the comments here, things are badly wrong.

I have to disagree with you narrowband about having to drill out and tap a hole in the focuser and get some better tube rings. As has been said this is sold as a premium scope not a DiY project and you shouldn't have to drill holes in brand new equipment that supposed to be superior quality.

My Moonlite focuser was delivered perfectly - it works like a charm and holds onto eyepieces with ease and doubtless would hold a camera equally well. The fit and finsih is astounding - so much so I cant beleive they dont cost twice what they charge for them. Its a true piece of precision equipment. I'd have hit the celing if Moonlite had told me 'yeah well you have to drill holes in it to make it work properly' because I am paying for precision engineering and thats what I expect to get.

[brympton]

am I right in understanding that you wanted a bulid to order scope delivered in one week!

Not at all, I did not know that they where built to order when I made the purchase on their website. I read the "Terms" page as previously mentioned and called after 10 days explaining what I had read:

"The ordered products will be dispatched by Orion Optics UK to you within 7 working days of the date you place your order although, because delay is sometimes outside of Orion Optics UK control, time of delivery shall not be of the essence."

I just wanted a firm delivery date is that too much to ask?

If you hurry them up, then they will send what theyve done after one week.

And you think that comment or this one is acceptable?

if you push them to make a scope fast something has to give.

I think we live on a different planet!

if your scope wasnt up to your standard, then I am sure it will be soon.

If only that were the case. There is no offer to make amends here.

Fix the focusser by tapping a third screw, and order a set of CNC tube rings. This will hopefully sort out your scope.

I shouldn't have to fix anything at this price point.

...can we stop assisinating Orion Optics as we are lucky to have such fine opticians in the UK

I'm not trying to assasinate anyone, just present the facts as they are. I would be more than happy for Orion Optics to apologise and replace this OTA with a clean well engineered product as shown and described on their website. Wouldn't it be great to be able to post something positive like the OTA has been replaced and is of the quality expected. Sadly this does not appear to be an option.

In response to ally's post

...so you would like someone else to tell them about the thread

No, not particularly I don't think it will do any good.

[Astro_Baby]

Brympton - I dont mind telling them. I have my reasons which are that one day I'd hope to be able to upgun and when that day comes I would rather like the kind of scope in Orions advertising - ie a brilliantly engineered piece of precision kit. The refractor boys have Williams as a quality product - I have seen one and whatever else you could say about it the quality of the engineering is fantastic.

The SCT people have liots of serious quality options - but for us Newt lovers there seems to be a dearth of super high quality kit.

I'd kind of like to hope that in say 5 years when I can afford something bigger than my 8" there would be an option to buy a 10" thats got the quality that Orions are supposed to build to - ie as in their adverts where the scopes look clean, sparkly and the engineering takes your breath away for the right reasons.

Obviously that wont happen unless a) someone tells them whats being said and they take it on board and do something about it. Now may or may not happen but unless a) happens first theres no chance of things getting better at all. Quality will carry on being bad and one day they wont be there at all and all we'll be left with is Synta or nowt.

[brympton]

Brympton - I dont mind telling them

Astro_Baby, I think someone already has....

The OTA has just been picked up by the couriers and I have received the following emails:

I hope (the couriers) have been today again for you, As I know they tried to collect it

yesterday I has asked them to collect on a Friday.

As soon as it arrives back I shall credit your account and I am so sorry for

all the inconvenience we have caused you.

Regards

That's more like it and the next one's even better...

(The couriers) have just confirmed collection of your telescope, On receiving the

telescope I myself will give it the once over.

Just to let you know today I have asked the engineering department to put

the writing back on the 9 point cells and OC1 focus mount. At the same time

we are adding a screw on adaptor with a brass locking ring with 3 locking

screws to achieve good locking and centricity to the draw tube. This has

been done for a few customers in the past and we have been waiting for their

reports coming back before adding them permanently to the OC1.

I know you feel disappointed with Orion Optics I just wish you would of

given us another chance to put things right for you

I have responded with the following...

Thank you for your email. I still need a high quality short tube 8" OTA and

I am more than happy to give you a second chance...you only had to ask! If

this is truly your preferred option then I will be more than happy, I only

ever wanted what was shown and described on your website.

Regards

Are things looking up...let's hope so as i said earlier wouldn't it be great to be able to post someting positive

[narrowbandpaul]

i am glad you are getting your money back.

Orion arent a bad company...far from it.

John (the son) is a really nice bloke, kind and well spoken, and certainly knows his optics.

Hopefully they will make a better quality OTA and you will enjoy your 8" OTA as you expected.

Was the mirror the quality you asked for?

Astrobaby, the selling factor of the orion is the superior mirrors, not there tubes or finishing. Whereas the selling point of moonlight focussers is the precision. These are really the same selling points. Precision in one form or another. A poor mirror is a worse option than a poor tube. Although for £700 you would hope for a decent tube aswell

Glad things seem to be going your way

Paul

[mik]

So far so good OO i watch with interest

Mick

[ngc2403]

I am pleased to tell you all that Orion have been told i didn't tell them myself but that doesn't matter. It seems that the old saying of 'to sides to a story' goes well here.

After reading more of the posts on this thread i found the following thing;

one this is a collection of post mainly from people how don't own or have not owned OO. The most damning posts came from none OO uses.

however this bit did surprise me?

I have responded with the following...

Thank you for your email. I still need a high quality short tube 8" OTA and

I am more than happy to give you a second chance...you only had to ask! If

this is truly your preferred option then I will be more than happy, I only

ever wanted what was shown and described on your website.

Regards

Are things looking up...let's hope so as i said earlier wouldn't it be great to be able to post someting positive

just this afternoon it sounded like you would never buy anything OO ever again?

sorry but if you would like telescope that works out of the box looks good and does everything that you would like it to then buy a brass and gold one! It will look good and they are well made, however as a telescope it will not really be all that great as the optics are not that important over all.

OO make quality optics and that means quality images and quality views.

I can't believe you never looked thought that telescope that is a sad sad situation to be in.

In response to ally's post

...so you would like someone else to tell them about the thread

No, not particularly I don't think it will do any good.

yes it is very easy to argue with people when they don't know you are don't it. i think that i is called 'female dog' ing.

So after they were told about some of the problems they seem to have sorted the focusser and the mirror cell out well looks like they are not hiding in the sand then.

They can make CNC tube rings and their new range of AG are the complete package and they have the complete package price too.

on the point of price alot of you seem to think that the SPX range in some how costly? they are more expensive than SW and yet the optics are the finest that you will find! ( My SPX has a better Strell than one of those AG they do now! and it was a small fraction of the price )

Astrobaby did you buy a moonlite focusser for your telescope?

cause i think that shows that the focusser that came on the telescope was not up to the task? the whole basis of the 'i want a telescope that works out of the box' and i not one i have to build/fix

p.s. if admin feel strongly about this post i will remove it, as it is along rant

ally

[Jeff RV]

Ally of course everyone has a few idiosyncrasies with a new scope, and yes I've read that OO do make good optics as i don't own one, But who wants a nice engine with bad body work?

Jeff.

[ngc2403]

Taxi drivers,

who wants a car that look like fast expensice car but is over taken by everyone and their granny on the striaght?

[nitram100]

Taxi drivers,

who wants a car that look like fast expensice car but is over taken by everyone and their granny on the striaght?

mY BRAIN!! arGHH!

[ngc2403]

Taxi drivers,

sorry that was uncalled for,

i know what you mean but i disagree i think the best optical set up produces the best images and i that means working on the telescope then i will work on it because i want the best set up i can get and the amount of money a spend on it is a factor. the only way around it for me was to buy OO and upgrade what was needed to get the perfect setup.

ally

[brympton]

Ally,

At last your true feelings have been revealed, I'm very happy to leave your post exactly as is - I couldn't have dug a bigger hole for you if i tried

[ngc2403]

you know,

the people who are on this site get to know the users surprising well! although the site uses fake names and avatars the personality shines through.

am sure that if we all got together that we could probibily guess each others user names just by the things that we say and do.

people that know me know that i very rarely lose my temper but today i listened to something that i just can't and will not stand for so my reaction will be a surprise to a lot of people

[Naz]

Right guys, keep to the subject, we all have our opinions and are entitled to them. We don't have to have them forced on to us.

Archie

[GazOC]

If this topic starts getting personal then it will be either locked or the offending post(s) edited/ deleted. Lets discuss the issue, not the posters eh?

I will add though that just because someone decides to buy a Moonlite it doesn't mean the existing R&P wasn't fit for purpose. I've made many upgrades/ tweaks to my scopes when money/ time has allowed but I never expect to have to make them "out of the box" in order for the scope to operate effectively.

[ngc2403]

ok my apologies for the earlier posting,

i feel the might be leaving me and the cooler head returning,

i would have to say that the idea of upgrading the telescope is one which i have always thought was needed for all telescopes no matter the price, however i don't seen the difference between upgrade and the DIY built telescope stuff. the sort that was talked about before?

if the focusser that you have works and you change it, then is that not an upgrade?

[GazOC]

Its semantics and depends where you draw the line I suppose, I've bought scopes, used them and thought "I'll have to change that when I've got the time" but not to the level that Brympton has experienced and not as a matter of necessity. I know this is going around in circles but selling a 8" scope for £700 with excellent optics doesn't entitle the manufacturer to skimp on the mechanics IMHO. Its not a big ask to have both for that sort of money is it?

[barkis]

Are OO's mirrors ground, fine ground, and polished by machines, and then hand figured to their high accuracy. This is a very time consuming process.

My experience is one of critical temperatures, during the parabolising . The time waiting until a worked mirror can be accurately assessed after some zonal work with a sub diameter lap.

Stuff like that.

Of course I am just an amateur at that game, but I can't see the process recommended by the like of Texereaux changing all that much since his books were published.

The point is, it takes time, and it cannot be rushed, although a laboratory like workshop can control those conditions a lot better than I could in my garage

I have no Idea how many Optical Technicians OO employ to produce their optics, but, I would love to have a look around their production and testing areas.

A wish I fear will have to stay just that. A wish.

Ron.

[ngc2403]

i know but if you want a well finished scope for £700 then you wouldn't get the same good optics.

i think the price of the OO is the down fall of the whole thing, that and the sales! the scopes in the 'am better than SW in every way' when i fact they are 'good optics'. very thing else is below them and not upto anything like the same standard.

i know that i would need a new focusser and better tube rings before i got it. i know i paid my money for Optics and only Optics.

[ngc2403]

Are OO's mirrors ground, fine ground, and polished by machines, and then hand figured to their high accuracy. This is a very time consuming process.

My experience is one of critical temperatures, during the parabolising . The time waiting until a worked mirror can be accurately assessed after some zonal work with a sub diameter lap.

Stuff like that.

Of course I am just an amateur at that game, but I can't see the process recommended by the like of Texereaux changing all that much since his books were published.

The point is, it takes time, and it cannot be rushed, although a laboratory like workshop can control those conditions a lot better than I could in my garage

I have no Idea how many Optical Technicians OO employ to produce their optics, but, I would love to have a look around their production and testing areas.

A wish I fear will have to stay just that. A wish.

Ron.

ask narrowbandpaul he has been round and can tell you everything about it. i think if i remember correctly they do as you said however the last bit is very slow as it take an hour to have the mirror ground by hand and then tested by the ZIGO before it can be reground to make it better. one the website they say that it is a process of try test it then try again each time the mirror getting better and better until it is fininshed

[GazOC]

Ally,

If thats the case then they should charge £800 and deliver a truly premium scope, even great optics and decent mechanics would be acceptable. I'm sorry mate but you should n't have to spend £700 on a scope knowing the focuser and rings will probably need replacing. These are things that between them would cost maybe £80 to take from being "poor" to being "OK" and thats all people are asking as far as I can tell.

Gaz

[ngc2403]

i see that yes it is a little extra money for improved quality but if you are going to upgrade then get a good one moonlite and some of the CNC tube rings that OO them self. just ask them they take seconds to make. point is that where as some people want good others want great and other are just ok with the things the way they are there.

£80 pound is not much to some but to others i might be the straw that broke the camales back.

In my opinion, the scope they offer has great potenical and just like theo walcot it might not be value for money know but give it time and work on it and you might find that it is a bargin

[GazOC]

Maybe I'm wrong but I think once you've made that initial decision to not get a £250 Skywatcher Newt but get a £700 OO scope instead then an extra £80 isn't going to put you off at all. You've made the big decision jumping from £250 to £700, not from £700 to £780.

Theres a basic level of quality that a scope should be delivered to a buyer in, if the buyer then chooses to upgrade then fair enough but thats not what happened here, the (£700) scope needed fixing out of the box. We can talk about how good the optics are all day but would it not just be better to send out a mechanically sound scope to go along with the great optics?

[ngc2403]

OK, All the talking being done is a bit circular so.

OO are as of now not sending out focussers with the 'fault' that they had before. the focusser in the SPX works however it was designed for keeping ep in the middle of the light path. this meant that the nose pieces of cameras sometimes wobbled about because of the position of the two screws.

the dove tail looked rough, yes but it worked, the tube rings worked, the telescope was usable was it not?