The Speed of Light, is it a relative thing?

[Delasaurus]

15 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

I'm entirely bemused by the term 'infinity' since it strikes me, as a non mathematician, as doing nothing so well as demonstrating that it has no business existing in the first place! We have an infinite number of matchboxes each containing a hundred matches... etc etc. The conundrums are all well known.

It seems to me to be a term which makes little sense without our participation since, for something to be finite, it must be definable and I don't see how something can be definable with no one there to define it. Definition does not exist outside an observing intelligence.

So I can't help wondering if 'infinite' really just means unknown.

My own feeling is that we are close to the limits of what we can hope to understand about the universe without a better theory of time. The 'tensed theory of time' (there's a past, an advancing present and a future) makes perfect sense locally, but so did a number of other descriptions which proved to be an impediment to deeper understanding. While ever one of nature's key dimensions is incompletely understood we are not going to advance by much.

Olly

Quite a subject this Astronomy lark eh? I only wanted to take a few pics of the moon and look where it has led me, Philosophy,Maths,Science,Physics,Religion and disputes with the neighbours because I've been up all night and tired and tetchy stargazing!

However, it's interesting that you mention the past, an advancing past and a future. I have often pondered on this. Often you hear people talk about living in the present moment, indeed there are many 'new age' books about it and 'spiritual' books about it , as if it were some special magic formula for happiness or something by those who smoke a lot of weed!

But, when you really think about it, aren't we living in all three states? We are both the past the present and the future all at the same moment. For example, yesterday can only be a concept because it no longer exists at this present moment, NOW!, and the future, tomorrow never comes because it is always today, NOW! We can remember the past and look foward to the future, but it never actually exists. I am 60 yrs into my life and the only moment that exists for me is, NOW. In a split fleeting moment! I don't mean to shout in my text, simply to make a point.

If that is true, then infinity becomes meaningless. And the birth of the Universe insignificant too, because we could argue, that the Universe has always been the same as it is , right NOW!  And the thing about living in the single state of NOW, the present moment, which contains elements of both the past and the present, is, that we don't need to do anything! Absolutely nothing! Because we have, by default, already reached that point in time.

So time, also by the nature of its being (a mere concept) in the big scheme of things, becomes meaningless.

Time, however, for the mathematicians and physycists is a Godsend because without t  in the equations , everything falls down in the master plan!

 

[MarsG76]

9 hours ago, xtreemchaos said:

ive a question, if the speed of light is 186,282 miles a sec  , whats the speed of Dark ? .  charl.

-186,282 miles/sec

[Delasaurus]

14 minutes ago, MarsG76 said:

-186,282 miles/sec

Genius! My exact same thoughts! ..............and why not!

It's only theory and ALL theory only holds up until it is otherwise provern.

The older I get the more I chuckle at 'those that are certain that they know' including myself...I'm not at all ashamed to admit deep down that I know very very little about anything despite holding various 'tickets' that claim I do! The only certainty is uncertainty, that's a good model that holds up well in most academic disciplines.

[MarsG76]

56 minutes ago, Delasaurus said:

Genius! My exact same thoughts! ..............and why not!

It's only theory and ALL theory only holds up until it is otherwise provern.

The older I get the more I chuckle at 'those that are certain that they know' including myself...I'm not at all ashamed to admit deep down that I know very very little about anything despite holding various 'tickets' that claim I do! The only certainty is uncertainty, that's a good model that holds up well in most academic disciplines.

In theory all of those scientists who think that they're so "smrt" because they can come up with some BS theory in their "thought  experiment" because they were at some university, getting rubbish drilled into their heads that they just go around blindly repeating, trying to talk down and ridicule people who don't play into that fiction... key word trying... but in reality they end up looking like they're off with the ferries.... That mechanical engineer wierdo comes to mind... Bill Nye the science "wanna be " guy.

 

[Delasaurus]

42 minutes ago, MarsG76 said:

In theory all of those scientists who think that they're so "smrt" because they can come up with some BS theory in their "thought  experiment" because they were at some university, getting rubbish drilled into their heads that they just go around blindly repeating, trying to talk down and ridicule people who don't play into that fiction... key word trying... but in reality they end up looking like they're off with the ferries.... That mechanical engineer wierdo comes to mind... Bill Nye the science "wanna be " guy.

 

Age old problem of the Universe, gotta make a living somehow!

I remember being told by a Professor when I was at University, that there were 6 points in dimensional space and not 3, on a 2D perspective drawing, I remember how smug he was and the whole class went into astounding gob smacking silence at his prophetic knowledge. All well and good in the classroom but try telling that to my clients when I arrived 'in the real world' on their doorsteps with a 6 dimensional drawing of a simple metal control panel box that needs to go for manufacturing and all the engineers are scratching their heads on how to read and construct the item from the  6D perspective drawing I've just been taught!

Academia is a place where so many people hold so much power and where the neutron stars shine brightly from their own dark matter. Which is why I love to play devil's advocate with them.

On the other hand.. 6 dimensions of space might have its use! Now we can have 6 dimensional infinity...

And so our new model of the Universe is that it is now a 6 dimensional fractal, where the speed of light is both a (variable) 666, -182,282 and 182,282 and contains no time but the 'ONE' and the 'NOW' and quite a lot of Dark matter that nobody seems to know much about!

 

Time; past, present and future. We are always at the centre and at the very centre of that centre...time does not exist.

[MarsG76]

42 minutes ago, Delasaurus said:

Age old problem of the Universe, gotta make a living somehow!

I remember being told by a Professor when I was at University, that there were 6 points in dimensional space and not 3, on a 2D perspective drawing, I remember how smug he was and the whole class went into astounding gob smacking silence at his prophetic knowledge. All well and good in the classroom but try telling that to my clients when I arrived 'in the real world' on their doorsteps with a 6 dimensional drawing of a simple metal control panel box that needs to go for manufacturing and all the engineers are scratching their heads on how to read and construct the item from the  6D perspective drawing I've just been taught!

Academia is a place where so many people hold so much power and where the neutron stars shine brightly from their own dark matter. Which is why I love to play devil's advocate with them.

On the other hand.. 6 dimensions of space might have its use! Now we can have 6 dimensional infinity...

And so our new model of the Universe is that it is now a 6 dimensional fractal, where the speed of light is both a (variable) 666, -182,282 and 182,282 and contains no time but the 'ONE' and the 'NOW' and quite a lot of Dark matter that nobody seems to know much about!

 

Time; past, present and future. We are always at the centre and at the very centre of that centre...time does not exist.

Yeah... see it basically like this, if you're some imaginative moron but have enough publicity by the media, you can push any theoretical rubbish that you can make up, and it'll be taught in universities for other sheeple science wannabes to repeat blindly... until some one challenges you theoretical fiction... Hawking vs Suskin battle over hawking radiation "debate" comes to mind, where first Suskin "proved" Hawking's made up "imaginary" story to be wrong?!?!?! Than Hawking "proved" that his fictional imagination was right after all and that black holes glow with "Hawkin Radiation" or what ever.. and get this, GET THIS.. he "DISCOVERED" (HAHAHAHAHA) that "Theory" when he "traveled" to the black hole in a thought experiment.. AAAA HAHAHAHAHA... Oh gimme strength.. my abs hurt from laughing...

This took me back to my child hood days (like when I was 8), when we were playing with Masters of the Universe dolls and, of course, Heman always had to win the battle, that WAS FACT, NOT A THEORY, FACT!!!!, but during play a friend had to win, basically due to his tears and crying that he was stuck with skeletor because his mum and dad won't buy him Heman, or man-at-arms (or whatever), SO I LET HIM WIN.... but than, of course Skeletor had to lose another day because "he is evil", and Theoretical fact is theoretical fact, can't argue with that, RIGHT?.... Suskin vs Hawkin much?? HAHAH  HAHA ah memories....  

[Delasaurus]

32 minutes ago, MarsG76 said:

Yeah... see it basically like this, if you're some imaginative moron but have enough publicity by the media, you can push any theoretical rubbish that you can make up, and it'll be taught in universities for other sheeple science wannabes to repeat blindly... until some one challenges you theoretical fiction... Hawking vs Suskin battle over hawking radiation "debate" comes to mind, where first Suskin "proved" Hawking's made up "imaginary" story to be wrong?!?!?! Than Hawking "proved" that his fictional imagination was right after all and that black holes glow with "Hawkin Radiation" or what ever.. and get this, GET THIS.. he "DISCOVERED" (HAHAHAHAHA) that "Theory" when he "traveled" to the black hole in a thought experiment.. AAAA HAHAHAHAHA... Oh gimme strength.. my abs hurt from laughing...

This took me back to my child hood days (like when I was 8), when we were playing with Masters of the Universe dolls and, of course, Heman always had to win the battle, that WAS FACT, NOT A THEORY, FACT!!!!, but during play a friend had to win, basically due to his tears and crying that he was stuck with skeletor because his mum and dad won't buy him Heman, or man-at-arms (or whatever), SO I LET HIM WIN.... but than, of course Skeletor had to lose another day because "he is evil", and Theoretical fact is theoretical fact, can't argue with that, RIGHT?.... Suskin vs Hawkin much?? HAHAH  HAHA ah memories....  

Ever written a piece of work (at school), only for it to be snatched away from you and proclaimed to be the thiefs own work?

This is Academia for you. It's a place where supposed adults behave like adults but instead they still behave as little children or Heman, tripping each other up and 'stealing' their peers (or students) work so they can revel in the glory and the Nobel Prize. It's called feathering their own nest.

But this is the nature of us humans, sadly. Newton had a tough time, Tesla was ridiculed, Darwin had a tough time, in fact almost all of those classical guys had a very bad time of it. Their work was plagiarized and sold off sometimes to the highest bidder.

People like Barnes-Wallace, for example was a guy who at one time was hailed a genius but if you look at his later aeronautical 'concepts' the man turned into a blithering idiot! Take a look at his hyperjet, its engines are spread just about as wide apart as you could physically get them. So an engine goes down and you end up with a sonic boomerang! But because he was Barnes-Wallace..he was allowed to say and do what he wanted and everyone bowed down to him and gave him money and facilities without question.

As for Hawking, he is going down the same road. Once a respected scientist, now his position or status seems to allow him to make comments on Brexit with some sort of authority. As like Virgin boss Branson. Now he's a space expert! And who is going to turn away Bransons money and declare to his face that actually he probably knows sweet Fa about building and designing spacecraft.

That's why in my opinion we should always, (to quote Trump!) always, question what we are fed, no matter who they are or what scientific status they might hold.. Otherwise their position gets the better of them much like dictators.

[MarsG76]

16 minutes ago, Delasaurus said:

Ever written a piece of work (at school), only for it to be snatched away from you and proclaimed to be the thiefs own work?

This is Academia for you. It's a place where supposed adults behave like adults but instead they still behave as little children or Heman, tripping each other up and 'stealing' their peers (or students) work so they can revel in the glory and the Nobel Prize. It's called feathering their own nest.

But this is the nature of us humans, sadly. Newton had a tough time, Tesla was ridiculed, Darwin had a tough time, in fact almost all of those classical guys had a very bad time of it. Their work was plagiarized and sold off sometimes to the highest bidder.

People like Barnes-Wallace, for example was a guy who at one time was hailed a genius but if you look at his later aeronautical 'concepts' the man turned into a blithering idiot! Take a look at his hyperjet, its engines are spread just about as wide apart as you could physically get them. So an engine goes down and you end up with a sonic boomerang! But because he was Barnes-Wallace..he was allowed to say and do what he wanted and everyone bowed down to him and gave him money and facilities without question.

As for Hawking, he is going down the same road. Once a respected scientist, now his position or status seems to allow him to make comments on Brexit with some sort of authority. As like Virgin boss Branson. Now he's a space expert! And who is going to turn away Bransons money and declare to his face that actually he probably knows sweet Fa about building and designing spacecraft.

That's why in my opinion we should always, (to quote Trump!) always, question what we are fed, no matter who they are or what scientific status they might hold.. Otherwise their position gets the better of them much like dictators.

I'm hearing you...

[ollypenrice]

An astronomy forum is a strange place to bash science. I can't say that I recognize the scientist(s) in MarsG76's post though, doubtless, a large community like the one we call science is likely to have all sorts of members.

The idea that practising scientists think they know everything is patently ridiculous for the simplest of reasons: without the unknown there would be no research. Practising scientists, in order to practise, must find an area of enquiry which lies beyond that which is known in order to study it. And as Feynman said, 'Science is a culture of doubt.' For a culture of certainty you would need to look eleswhere and on a different forum.

In my view, for the best possible view out onto the vast mysteries of the unknown, one should climb the hill called science because it has a commanding view not so much of itself but of what lies beyond our ken.

Olly

[MarsG76]

54 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

An astronomy forum is a strange place to bash science. I can't say that I recognize the scientist(s) in MarsG76's post though, doubtless, a large community like the one we call science is likely to have all sorts of members.

The idea that practising scientists think they know everything is patently ridiculous for the simplest of reasons: without the unknown there would be no research. Practising scientists, in order to practise, must find an area of enquiry which lies beyond that which is known in order to study it. And as Feynman said, 'Science is a culture of doubt.' For a culture of certainty you would need to look eleswhere and on a different forum.

In my view, for the best possible view out onto the vast mysteries of the unknown, one should climb the hill called science because it has a commanding view not so much of itself but of what lies beyond our ken.

Olly

Yes true, but I'm not bashing science... no, not in the slightest, "theoretical physics" is not a science, it's more fiction writing under the pretense of being science or physics, but it's at best a pseudo science... 

I didn't name any scientists... just merely a few guys who sit around all day, imagining themselves flying  around in space, inventing ways the universe should function according to them... LSD anyone?

and in the case of Bill Nye, actually say something stupid like "Bill Nye: Older people need to 'die' out before climate science can advance" or "Bill Nye is hopeful that the climate deniers will eventually die off"

That's not touching the holocaust crp he spewed put... kicker is, he has NO SCIENCE CREDENTAILS and allegedly 4 air conditioning unit s in his house!!!

Google is full of links...

All just propaganda pushing frauds...

[Delasaurus]

1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

An astronomy forum is a strange place to bash science. I can't say that I recognize the scientist(s) in MarsG76's post though, doubtless, a large community like the one we call science is likely to have all sorts of members.

The idea that practising scientists think they know everything is patently ridiculous for the simplest of reasons: without the unknown there would be no research. Practising scientists, in order to practise, must find an area of enquiry which lies beyond that which is known in order to study it. And as Feynman said, 'Science is a culture of doubt.' For a culture of certainty you would need to look eleswhere and on a different forum.

In my view, for the best possible view out onto the vast mysteries of the unknown, one should climb the hill called science because it has a commanding view not so much of itself but of what lies beyond our ken.

Olly

I don't think it is about 'bashing' Olly, it is about how certain members of the scientific community arrive at their 'posts' in society, it is about how their positions influence their students and the whole academic constituition. It has always historically been the same. And sometimes it is good for the layman to question the fodder he has been fed and not to rely on 'reputation' alone. And I think that is what MarsG76's post was about. Some of our best known brains, have seen better days and it is not satisfactory to accept that whatever words are aired from their mouths, are still valid by way of their academic status.

If a theory can take a 'bashing', then that must be a good thing for us all. To question is to be a responsible person in my opinion.

 

[xtreemchaos]

5 hours ago, MarsG76 said:

-186,282 miles/sec

I can only tell if your right or wrong,  because it will pre-empt my 16,000 page paper on the subject  and your a few miles out . charl. ps its 16,000 pages because thay will only let us have crayons in here.

[Stub Mandrel]

How do I 'unsubscribe' from a thread when it degenerates into unmitigated tosh?

[andrew s]

1 minute ago, Stub Mandrel said:

How do I 'unsubscribe' from a thread when it degenerates into unmitigated tosh?

Quite, I have been holding back but feel I must support you and Olly. By all means be sceptical but do the homework and understand what real science is and how it works.

Regards Andrew 

[Delasaurus]

24 minutes ago, xtreemchaos said:

I can only tell if your right or wrong,  because it will pre-empt my 16,000 page paper on the subject  and your a few miles out . charl.

I will match your 16,000 page paper with my own 16,000 page paper and add citations proving that the Speed of Light is a variable with a fixed speed that only exists in the minds of those white coated men with funny hairstyles.

[xtreemchaos]

you being grumpy Neil, whats life without fun, you can still talk science and have a chuckle mate. charl.

[xtreemchaos]

3 minutes ago, Delasaurus said:

I will match your 16,000 page paper with my own 16,000 page paper and add citations proving that the Speed of Light is a variable with a fixed speed that only exists in the minds of those white coated men with funny hairstyles.

arh so its a duel you want then, fancy a game of chess... charl.

[Delasaurus]

22 minutes ago, andrew s said:

Quite, I have been holding back but feel I must support you and Olly. By all means be sceptical but do the homework and understand what real science is and how it works.

Regards Andrew 

Free to come, free to go!

I thought this was a place to discuss with an open mind, it is filed under 'Space Science, Physics and Theories'.

Begone then you Mortlings and leave the classroom if you cannot contribute without negative criticism!

Its a discussion....nothing more, nothing less

But then again..me thinks why are you posting on an amateur site and not submitting research papers in your own University...

 

[Delasaurus]

9 minutes ago, xtreemchaos said:

arh so its a duel you want then, fancy a game of chess... charl.

Yeah, might as well, none of the technocrats and boffins that confide they know everything ,have come up with anything new so far on this forum...so we might as well. I must warn you though that I play at the speed of light at 340.29 m/s, hope that fits in with your galactic schedule.

[saac]

8 hours ago, Delasaurus said:

 

So time, also by the nature of its being (a mere concept) in the big scheme of things, becomes meaningless.

Time, however, for the mathematicians and physycists is a Godsend because without t  in the equations , everything falls down in the master plan!

 

Not sure I'd agree with time being a mere concept - not entirely sure what you mean by that. As for infinity, I have always looked upon it as a mathematical concept rather than an absolute physical state.

Jim

[Macavity]

Oh good grief? [Charlie Brown].

"Scientists" are what they are? We are QUITE like other earthlings? 

I do have a bit of *fun* reminding anyone who will listen  that I was
ONCE a scientist! Otherwise people tell me I am a complete idiot... 

If I have a remaining passion, it is to get people to try to like science.
To get kids to do "STEM" subjects school. Many Amateur Astronomers
relate they were dismissed as "too thick" to become scientists! etc. 

Last I heard, the speed of light was FIXED! Other constant allowed to
vary. But our (temporary) critic is not being too serious I sense? lol

[saac]

1 minute ago, Macavity said:

I do have a bit of *fun* reminding anyone who will listen  that I was
ONCE a scientist! Otherwise people tell me I am a complete idiot... 

I like that Chris, I wonder if both conditions of being are mutually exclusive. I like to think they are supportive of each other, the idiot part fuels the curiosity and keeps us young  

Jim 

[Stub Mandrel]

33 minutes ago, Delasaurus said:

I thought this was a place to discuss with an open mind

So did I...

[andrew s]

1 hour ago, Delasaurus said:

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Delasaurus said:

Free to come, free to go!

I thought this was a place to discuss with an open mind, it is filed under 'Space Science, Physics and Theories'.

Begone then you Mortlings and leave the classroom if you cannot contribute without negative criticism!

Its a discussion....nothing more, nothing less

But then again..me thinks why are you posting on an amateur site and not submitting research papers in your own University...

 

I post here for two reasons. One to learn from others and two to try to help others with what little I know. I don't do professional science but I do make my spectroscopy results available via amateur sites.

I tried in an other thread you started to explain what I understood to be the case with neutrinos and you seemed to appreciate that. However, in this thread you seem to prefer name calling and wild speculation. That is fine but perhaps better in the Lounge.

Regards Andrew 

[Delasaurus]

10 minutes ago, andrew s said:

 

 

I post here for two reasons. One to learn from others and two to try to help others with what little I know. I don't do professional science but I do make my spectroscopy results available via amateur sites.

I tried in an other thread you started to explain what I understood to be the case with neutrinos and you seemed to appreciate that. However, in this thread you seem to prefer name calling and wild speculation. That is fine but perhaps better in the Lounge.

Regards Andrew 

I apologise Andrew and hope you will accept my apology if I have offended you in any way. And I do hope you will continue to contribute your valued knowledge. This thread however, was created not exactly with tongue in cheek but to promote peoples ideas about Light and Infinity. It was not created with the intention of a 'fixed' methodology. You can get that in text books. What I would like to see is peoples original thoughts. However flippant they may seem to others and perhaps this is not the thread for you, I don't know?

Isn't wild speculation though part of the 'what if' scenario and excitement in moving forward? Surely 'what if's' and 'wild speculation'  are perfectly satisfactory to air? It's a way of striking out new ideas is it not? New theories? If we get too rigid in our thinking, then we surely may as well just recite some passages from Moore or Hawkins; chapter 10;verse 5?

If we are to accept that 1+1=2 on the Universal scale of things, then there is no point to this thread.

And lets be honest, lets have some fun with it along the way!

Best Regards

Del