Why we could do with a new forum in imaging.

[Nigel G]

I need to ask this question to see how many people think its worth starting a new topic for Alt-AZ and short exposure imaging.

There's a big difference in imaging with Alt-AZ and guided EQ mounts in many ways, a whole new bunch of questions and answers.

We have a thread which we use called the No EQ DSO challenge, started by JGM1971 a while ago, it gave hope to people who thought it wasn't possible to image deep sky without a guided EQ mount, including myself. the amount of very useful information in the thread is huge. It can take hours to look through the 60 odd pages and 1500 posts to find the helpful information.

Spreading posts around the forum trying to break down the details would be worse than the present post in trying to find info.

With a new topic in imaging named Alt-AZ and short exposure, this valuable information can be organised for present new and future people to get an easy reference and see that it is possible to do what's not possible.

Regards

Nigel.

[SteveNickolls]

Thanks for taking the lead on this Nige. I definitely consider it worthwhile.

Cheers,

Steve

[SteveNickolls]

I'll try and elaborate if I can Nige from my last post.

I see it that modern technology is opening previously closed doors and no less in the world of astro-imaging. Just as the advent of digital cameras replaced the SLR and roll of film, advances in lightweight Alt-Az mount technology, Go-To and video imaging have permitted interested people to enschew the classic EQ approach to imaging.

Three branches have now evolved in astrophotography-mainstream EQ imaging often involving taking long exposures with often heavy mounts and expensive telescopes, cameras and accesories; Video imaging using very short exposures; and more recently imagers pioneering the middle ground using relatively inexpensive lightweight Alt-Az and EQ mounts to take multiple images lasting up to a minutes duration or more. Often the camera used is the family DSLR.

At a time when orthodoxy could not believe the results of imaging using lightweight Alt-Az/EQ mounts taking 30 second exposures the efforts of pioneers to champion the Alt-Az cause such as Joseph Ashley pushed open the door and with the use of software such as Deep Sky Stacker overcame the problem of integrating frames affected with field rotation. The advent of processing software such as Ivo Jager’s StarTools helped attract newcomers wanting to try out imaging in a relatively inexpensive way.

In taking this middle ground approach many interested people have been able to dip their toes in the deep waters of astro-imaging without taking the usually offered, and sometimes off putting advice to invest lots of money in a hobby they might not later find they want to pursue. It became the difference between wanting to image and getting outside and imaging.

The results have largely spoken for themselves and made many people reconsider this alternative approach to imaging. Judging by the number of views on the ‘Getting Started With Imaging’ topic on SGL for the ‘No EQ Challenge’ thread (currently 36,929 views) which is only over two years old, the topic is of interest to a lot of members and the general public. It is also the thread with the most replies (1,537) and very active.

Anyway I welcome this thread as it will allow a plethora of ideas to emerge which bodes well for the hobby.

Cheers,
Steve

[Nigel G]

Well said Steve and thanks for your support.

Cheers

Nige.

[Stub Mandrel]

I totally support this (see the no-EQ challenge thread!)

Although I am an EQ imager is use an unguided EQ3 mount and because of that I keep my subs to 2 minutes, so aside from the mount I share many of the issues the AltAz crowd tackle. Here's an edit of a post I made in the original discussion, amended so it makes sense out of context!

I'm not trying to muscle out the Alt-Az elements, but I think it's valuable to have something that looks wider to encompass light EQ mount users, DSLR users, processing short subs often with relatively low total time and beginners who are on a budget - although it''s essential that those developing experience in these approaches stay engaged and inspire the newbies!.

We need a formula that not only creates a home for discussing alt-az issues, but puts the technical issues relating to the mounts in a  section within a wider topic that also covers the common ground with small scopes/DSLRs/EQ mounts that can get lost in the rest of the forum.

Unfortunately 'budget' is an emotionally charged word and some people may read it as doing things on the cheap. For me trying to do AP alongside one of the other traditionally expensive hobbies (model engineering) it matters to make my money go as far as possible. That doesn't mean the cheapest possible kit or making silk purses out of sows ears, but it does mean getting the best out of what I have rather than simply upgrading for the sake of it. For example I shelled out on a 130P-DS and coma corrector because the 'return on investment' was significant and also the scope was better suited to my mount. For me it's about spending wisely and not putting people off who don't want to spend a fortune on a hobby they aren't sure will suit them long term.

Building on Steve's excellent post above, I think that since the emergence of affordable 14-bit DSLRs (I started with a 210-but D10) followed by other new CMOS sensors it's increasingly possible to get good RGB data at shorter exposures of 30 - 120 seconds, say. These require some form of tracking, but both Alt-Az (fighting field rotation) and unguided light EQ mounts CAN achieve this an give you a good majority of usable subs.

A significant proportion of those who got into AP in earlier days haven't had direct experience of this and because they think you need at least 5-10 minute subs for decent results they naturally discount an ALT-AZ or an EQ3 (I note that 'Making Every Photo Count' DOES say you can start with an EQ3!)

Recently someone enquiring about astrophotography was recommended a cooled mono camera - the typical price of one of these would have blown his budget on its own, leaving them with no scope, no mount, no polarscope...

The key elements of my imaging rig (130P-DS, coma corrector, RA drive, NEQ-3, polarscope, steel-leg tripod, self-modded Canon 450D) are not cheap as a bundle, but they are roughly the sort of cost that most people entering the hobby are looking at paying.

People who say such 'budget' equipment will only frustrate should look at the "No-EQ Challenge thread" or the "Imaging with the 130P-DS thread". Rather than comparing the results with 10 hours each of Ha & LRGB, compare them with the sort of picture professional observatories were producing in the pre-digital age.

We need to showcase the results of such work to encourage more people to consider astrophotography as part of their hobby PLUS we need a place to cultivate the different skills and approaches. One or two Byzantine threads won't do this, a new topic might.

[Nigel G]

Firstly I am very grateful to SGL for huge help in many ways,  very friendly and helpful. I didn't have a clue when I bought my first scope.

When I first started imaging about 9 months ago I had a Alt-Az mount and no idea. The advice I was given was my kit wasn't suitable and to read a book which was suggested. 

After reading the book I believed it was not possible to image with my setup,  I would need at least a motorised eq mount and guiding kit.

Dejected I still tried. All I could get was fuzzy dirty single exposure images, still I was over the moon as they say. All I wanted was to see better what I was seeing through my scope. 

It wasn't until Happy-kat put me on to the No EQ DSO challenge thread I realised much more was possible. Still I am totally amazed at the image's we capture, far better than I ever expected . 

Since then Alt-Az and short exposure imaging information has become readily available on the thread, as mentioned before it has become difficult to find good helpful  information due to the size of the thread, I think many people are missing out on possibilities to image with the kit they have because it's not obvious to them that it is possible to get DSO images with cheaper setups.

With a new topic different threads can be started  covering the subject, mounts, cameras, techniques,  software showcase etc, organised and easy to find.

There's plenty more information to discover still and more people are becoming aware and interested. 

If I can help 1 person get the thrill I get from capturing a DSO with short exposures on a budget I'm happy to.

My imaging kit cost £600, I'm lucky enough to be able to afford an EQ guided setup if I wanted but many people can not, maybe some day I might.

But I love the challenge and experimental work and will do whatever is possible to promote Alt-Az and short exposure imaging. 

Surely there's no harm in starting a new topic. 

Help us help others

Regards 

Nige.

[alacant]

Hi. Just a suggestion to include anything cheap and cheerful, not just altaz. I feel there are many of us here on a budget and who via our experimentation know a tip or six between us. Thanks.

[Nigel G]

7 hours ago, alacant said:

Hi. Just a suggestion to include anything cheap and cheerful, not just altaz. I feel there are many of us here on a budget and who via our experimentation know a tip or six between us. Thanks.

Thanks for posting, 

this is the reason for the name of the suggested new topic, Atl-AZ and short exposures or  short exposure and Alt-Az rather than just Alt-Az ☺

I wouldn't say for cheap as some of us use expensive cameras and scopes, although this type of imaging is the cheapest way to enter into AP and my complete setup was 600,, camera mount scope and essential items.

Cheers 

Nige 

[alacant]

11 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

'budget' is an emotionally charged word

Hi. Yeah, I see what you mean. Experimental perhaps? What the guys over in the altaz thread have done is thrown out the notion that you need the (yawn) ubiquitous APO on and expensive eq with tracking, guidescope, cables, dark sites, ccds... It's a wonderful example of what experimentation can do: go against all the theories and push the limits of what is available today. Forgive me for reiterating the need for keeping up to date. Many here quote that we can surpass what the 200" Hale telescope could do 50 years ago. Similarly, technology has moved on sufficiently during the last decade that with modest equipment we can approach what would then have been unthinkable. If we are restrained by advice that ap is  a bottomless pit of spending and to get anywhere near we need the same kit as we needed 10 years ago then I believe this to be incorrect and misleading; there is a big gap between collecting telescopes and ap.

I believe that a section on hands-on, no-jargon, experimental and low budget ap would go a way to redress the imbalance produced when we -almost certainly unknowingly- discourage those who simply want a few pointers. HTH

[Filroden]

I think there needs to be a clear objective for this set of topics so they are clearly differentiated from existing topics (mainly the imaging and video sub-forums). For me, it's always been about getting the most data from the longest exposures within the limitations of a tracking alt-az mount - which usually means exposures between about 30s and 120s. For people at lower latitudes or with longer focal lengths that lower limit could be as low as 4s (still considerably longer than the 'live' views achieved from stacking video or very short exposure images) and for people with a manually tracked EQ mount maybe that could go up to 180s (which starts to overlap considerably with images usually seen in the imaging section). It's this upper end where I think there is risk of considerable overlap between sections. The last thing I would want to see is for people not to know where to post and potentially spread the community across too many sub-forums.

What outcomes are people looking for from this sub-forum? For me, I'm looking for ideas on overcoming my mount's limitations so that I can take the best images with my existing equipment. I'm looking for feedback on how to improve the processing of what typically are much noisier images, because of the shorter exposures. And I'm looking for ideas on what to try next.

Otherwise, I think all options are on the table - camera types, scope types, filters, etc.

[alacant]

1 minute ago, Filroden said:

What outcomes are people looking for from this sub-forum?

Common sense, up to date, hands-on, no-jargon, experimental, low budget. Just my €0.02:)

[Stub Mandrel]

2 minutes ago, Filroden said:

What outcomes are people looking for from this sub-forum? For me, I'm looking for ideas on overcoming my mount's limitations so that I can take the best images with my existing equipment. I'm looking for feedback on how to improve the processing of what typically are much noisier images, because of the shorter exposures. And I'm looking for ideas on what to try next.

That's exactly what I'm looking for, with the addition that I want somewhere that people can look who are thinking of trying AP.

[alacant]

1 minute ago, Stub Mandrel said:

people can look who are thinking of trying AP

+1

[Filroden]

Just now, alacant said:

Common sense, up to date, hands-on, no-jargon, experimental, low budget. Just my €0.02:)

Common sense applies to every part of this forum. I can't see any sub-forum that limits the posting to anything else. Likewise being up-to-date: I regularly see posts in the imaging sections which show new techniques. All professions come with jargon - your own post above references APO and ccds. Anyone can write clearly in any forum.

Why experimental? Experimental applies to any part of astro-photography from those pushing 'live' views using video/fast exposure imaging right up to using new processing techniques on very high-end kit.

Why low budget? You can buy entry level guided equatorial mounts that can offer far longer tracking than I can achieve with my alt-az mount and my kit would have cost many multiples more. Budget does not constrain my exposure time, field rotation does. And that's my choice. I could buy a rotator, a wedge or upgrade to an equatorial mount - none of which I want to do for reasons of time/convenience. I like the simplicity of my set up and just want to get the most from it.

I don't think those terms differentiate the objectives in a way which wouldn't lead to confusion over where to post or potentially exclude many who are currently actively pushing their mounts to their limits.

[alacant]

3 minutes ago, Filroden said:

Common sense applies to every part of this forum

I hope so too. Just a heads up when recommending how to get started rather than making beginners run in the opposite direction. I -wrongly- assumed that everyone posting in this thread wasn't at the getting started any longer. Rest assured any post I made to a beginner would be in as plain an English as my 30 years of Spanglish shall allow!. Nonetheless, I stand reprimanded for using jargon. Thanks.

[Filroden]

7 minutes ago, alacant said:

I hope so too. Just a heads up when recommending how to get started rather than making beginners run in the opposite direction. I -wrongly- assumed that everyone posting in this thread wasn't at the getting started any longer. Rest assured any post I made to a beginner would be in as plain an English as my 30 years of Spanglish shall allow!. Nonetheless, I stand reprimanded for using jargon. Thanks.

It wasn't a reprimand  Just trying to illustrate that it's very hard to define a clear objective that doesn't overlap with existing topics. Everything you suggested are good things, I just don't think they are exclusive to the topic at hand and therefore don't help differentiate that topic from existing topics. Common sense, jargon-free (or at least jargon-light), hand-on advice, etc are all things we should all be wanting/offering anywhere on this site.

My question is, what is the "need" that is currently being unfulfilled by existing sub-fora? That needs to be clearly defined otherwise it's just proliferating sub-fora, which makes it harder for members to find where to post or to read what they are interested in. Communities are stronger by being closer together, not further apart so I'm reluctant to support creating new areas without there being a clear need.

I think we are on the cusp of defining that need but, for me, it's still not clear enough.

[happy-kat]

Forums by their definition can divide, I'm not convinced another one would actually help but instead create confusion of where to go to read or post.

Imaging is imaging irrespective of the equipment used, the user is what separates beginner from advanced, it's their knowledge that determines that not the tools they use. 

[Stub Mandrel]

36 minutes ago, Filroden said:

I think we are on the cusp of defining that need but, for me, it's still not clear enough.

Ken,

I think your wish to have something that focuses on the unique aspects of AltAz is fair enough, but I can't see that its wide enough to justify an entire subject, like video astronomy. My concern is that a new 'high-level' topic is broad enough to cover all the new possibilities that Steve has gone through and that should include both beginners on a budget and top-end alt-az imagers as the former can learn from the latter. Substitute poor polar alignment for field rotation, and everything relevant to Alt-Az applies equally to light unguided EQ mounts.

A high-level topic that covers all the simpler approaches (what can be done without guiding, 1-micron mounts,  narrowband etc.) would have room for a mid-level AltAz topic (or a mounts topic).

I previously suggested this structure which isn't perfect but could be a starting point, although perfection isn't required with forum topics - (they  should not be an iron law - most posts could fit in several topics - but a way of encouraging people to post on/expl.ore certain areas as well as  helping people find their way around):

Imaging using Alt-Az and light EQ mounts, not just for beginners

• Mounts - overcoming the challenges (individual sub-topics created by users can easily address EQ, Alt-AZ, Barn door etc.)
• Scopes - achro refractors to budget reflectors (to cover various light & entry-level scopes, the 130P-DS thread could go here)
• Cameras - Mainly DSLRs and other RGB cameras!
• Accessories - affordable extras to get more out of your imaging time
• Processing - getting the most from short subs and limited total exposure
• Help and advice - Ask anything - the one answer you won't get is spend lots of money!
• Showcase - share your successes

 

[Nigel G]

I don't want anyone to think, I can't post in this potential new forum because I have an unguided eq3 or a cooled mono CCD or a very expensive scope. All advise to do with the topic would be welcome from anyone.

I would bet money that there are dozens of people who have put there gear aside and forgotten about it or sold it because they were told its not suitable for AP whether it be Alt-AZ mounts or a eq3 mount.

A lucky few do get pointed in a direction that suites there kit, myself included. The fact that there's only one topic to guide them, as said before the topic No EQ DSO has 62 pages and 1500 posts, and that topic can be lost itself in a forum of over 7000 topics is my main point. The valuable info is not there to be seen by potential newcomers or people seeking advise unless someone who knows about the topic spots them and tells them.

With a dedicated forum which is always on the home page, It's there to be seen and will give a better chance for the people who didn't get a shove in the right direction.

I think I'd better make a point that what we are looking for is a new forum in imaging, not just a topic. Sorry for my mistake, but I think we all know that.

Cheers

Nige.

[ChrisLX200]

I would support this request for such a new sub-forum within the main imaging section, although there is the caveat that other astro-imagers may not like to interrupt if you all tuck yourselves away in your own little room Nevertheless the benefits would appear to outweigh that disadvantage.

ChrisH

[The Admiral]

46 minutes ago, ChrisLX200 said:

I would support this request for such a new sub-forum within the main imaging section, although there is the caveat that other astro-imagers may not like to interrupt if you all tuck yourselves away in your own little room

 

I'm not too convinced that would happen Chris. If, like me, you check out the new replies list, or any thread you've posted in, then it really won't matter where the original post is stored. Having a forum topic just means it can be better organised.

Ian

[Filroden]

3 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Imaging using Alt-Az and light EQ mounts, not just for beginners

• Mounts - overcoming the challenges (individual sub-topics created by users can easily address EQ, Alt-AZ, Barn door etc.)
• Scopes - achro refractors to budget reflectors (to cover various light & entry-level scopes, the 130P-DS thread could go here)
• Cameras - Mainly DSLRs and other RGB cameras!
• Accessories - affordable extras to get more out of your imaging time
• Processing - getting the most from short subs and limited total exposure
• Help and advice - Ask anything - the one answer you won't get is spend lots of money!
• Showcase - share your successes

 

3 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Imaging using Alt-Az and light EQ mounts

• Mounts - overcoming the challenges (individual sub-topics created by users can easily address EQ, Alt-AZ, Barn door etc.)
• Processing - getting the most from short subs and limited total exposure
• Help and advice - Ask anything - the one answer you won't get is spend lots of money!
• Showcase - share your successes

Edited by Filroden

The limiting factor that alt-az and light EQ mounts have in common are the limitations on exposure lengths (though not always for the same reasons). I don't think the scope, camera or accessories have any bearing on that limitation and by suggesting specific ranges of cameras and scopes you're both reducing the likely participation from the sub-forum and limiting possible solutions. So I'd suggest the above changes to your suggestion.

I've mentioned an example in the original Alt-Az DSO challenge thread before this one was created. Modding a DSLR or using a mono camera can both offer improvements of images within the same limited timeframes. Modding can be done at low cost and mono cameras can cost similar amounts to a colour DSLR if you don't already have a camera and wanted one dedicated to astrophotography.

For me, it comes back to one thing - limitations on exposure mean we need to use more 'unconventional' techniques to get the most from our mounts.

[The Admiral]

I think I've got my thoughts a little clearer, but only a little, so perhaps it's time to air my thoughts. Forgive me if I take a ramble through my thought process in this lengthy post.

There have been some interesting views and counter-views expressed so far. That's great, keep 'em' coming, but as Ken has said we really need to drill down and identify exactly what it is we want from any new forum topic. That might not be easy, but has to be done.

As Nige and others have pointed out, the "No EQ" thread has over 1500 posts and had over 37,000 views since it was started 2 years ago. By any stretch of the imagination it must clearly have some resonance with the 'Loungers', and be fulfilling a useful function. We must be doing something right . So, the first point I would make is that this particular topic cannot just be ignored; it has traction.

Why has the thread been so popular? I believe that the main the reason for its popularity is that it has a succinct title which unequivocally suggests that there is another way, and a way which goes against the mantra that in order to do astrophotography one needs to employ expensive equipment and esoteric techniques. That is not to say that those who do astrophotography "the right way", as some would put it, don't achieve great things and get great satisfaction in doing so. Good luck to them; I have no problem with that. But there is a group of people, possibly a large group, for whom doing that is just not available to them, and yet still have a yearning to achieve something with astrophotography. This thread provides a glimmer of hope to those individuals, and reveals that it is indeed possible to dip one's toe into astrophotography without it costing the earth or being excessively complex. It is that group which would be forgotten were it not for this thread.

The problem with the current thread is simply that there are now so many posts that it is becoming difficult to locate any specific item or topic that one might want to reflect on. There is no way, for example, for someone to look at a collection of images taken using Alt-Az mounts to see just what is achievable, and to find out what sort of exposures were required for them to be achieved. As it has evolved it has become a bit of a mess. A single thread cannot be re-organised into a logical order, and that is why we should seek to establish a new forum topic. But just having a new forum topic won't solve the problem, as it'll just become like the existing thread. There will need to be pinned threads/sub-topics.

I'm starting from the perspective of just improving what we already have. To that end I'd be looking for something along the following lines:

Forum Topic:                              Alt-Az Mount Imaging

Forum sub-topic/pinned thread:      -  Image Showcase

                                                   -  Resources

                                                   -  Discussions/reviews on Alt-Az mounts

                                                   -  Processing tips for short exposure images

This to be followed by individual threads.

I have no strong views about broadening to include other perspectives, such as has been requested elsewhere in this thread. I can see that this may lead to the encouragement of other groups who currently do not have a proper place within the forum, and as such would be to the benefit of the community, but I do have concerns that what is currently an unequivocally defined and fairly unique topic could become blurred at the edges. That would not be helpful. I would have no problem in accommodating other interests, so long as any forum sub-topic is similarly unequivocally titled, so as to avoid conflict with either the Alt-Az imaging component of the proposed forum topic, or indeed duplicate any other forum topic on the 'Lounge'.

This is how I see it anyway.

Ian

[Scott]

not my decision to make but it seems to me that many are equating alt az to budget imaging. this just isn't true.

a sub forum for specified budget imaging maybe but alt az i'd vote no. i already forget what i'm looking for mid scroll

[The Admiral]

4 minutes ago, Scott said:

not my decision to make but it seems to me that many are equating alt az to budget imaging. this just isn't true.

a sub forum for specified budget imaging maybe but alt az i'd vote no. i already forget what i'm looking for mid scroll

It doesn't have to be I agree, but I use my Nexstar 6/8SE which I bought new for under £400, and find it quite workable. The whole thrust of the Alt-Az thread has been to show that it needn't cost the earth, but of course that doesn't mean it can't. Think of a C14 Edge with Hyperstar on a suitable Alt-Az mount! That would do the job nicely, though no-one has proffered that (yet) as a solution . All of us are using relatively low cost mounts.

But, 'budget' is not a suitably precise criterion.

Ian