Nagler Zoom vs high-power Ethos

[iPeace]

Scope: TV85. When observing Jupiter - which I very much enjoy - I always end up using a Nagler Zoom to get as much detail as I can on the night, but I get the best views short of this EP's max. magnification - somewhere between the 5mm and 4mm stops, it varies a bit. I also have to keep nudging the scope for tracking - not a complaint, it's fun - but this does make me wonder whether I would enjoy a couple of high-power Ethos EPs more, say a 6mm and a 4.7mm. Then there's the Ethos 3.7mm as well.

Can anyone comment on the viewing experience when comparing a Nagler Zoom to high-power Ethos EPs? The field of view would be the obvious difference; how about image quality?

[faulksy]

hi ipeace, i know you havnt asked this but the ultimate ep,s for planetary viewing are orthos or very very close second which myself and a few others will agree has to be the 70* ortho, the pentax xw. there was one in the classified in 3.5 and 5mm but i dont think you have enough posts to view it yet

[Stu]

I've owned a 3.7mm Ethos SX and a TV85, quite possibly at the same time, as well as a 3 to 6 Nagler zoom. The Nag is a very handy little eyepiece, but it will fall short of an Ethos for ultimate contrast and sharpness.

Personally I did not get on with the 3.7 Ethos. I found the eye relief to be quite right as the exit lense is heavily concave, so I found I had to push my eye too far into the eyepiece to see the field stop. I ended up looking more at my eyelashes than the target. It's a shame because I think you can fit the whole lunar disk in at quite high mag which is impressive, I just found it too tiresome to use.

I think I would end up going for something like a 3.5 or 4.5mm Delos instead, much more comfortable eye relief, same image quality as and ethos although obviously not the same afov.

[iPeace]

4 minutes ago, faulksy said:

hi ipeace, i know you havnt asked this but the ultimate ep,s for planetary viewing are orthos or very very close second which myself and a few others will agree has to be the 70* ortho, the pentax xw. there was one in the classified in 3.5 and 5mm but i dont think you have enough posts to view it yet

Hi, thanks for the response. I apparently do have access to the classifieds (that's where I got the TV85 from!). I hadn't considered anything without green lettering on it yet, worried the scope might spit it out...I'll investigate.

[Moonshane]

As much as I love my zoom I agree with Stu. But then I prefer the zoom on the moon due to chromatic aberration that I get on these new wide field eyepieces on that target. The zoom is of course more flexible than single eyepieces at the cost of one of them

[iPeace]

3 minutes ago, Stu said:

I've owned a 3.7mm Ethos SX and a TV85, quite possibly at the same time, as well as a 3 to 6 Nagler zoom. The Nag is a very handy little eyepiece, but it will fall short of an Ethos for ultimate contrast and sharpness.

Personally I did not get on with the 3.7 Ethos. I found the eye relief to be quite right as the exit lense is heavily concave, so I found I had to push my eye too far into the eyepiece to see the field stop. I ended up looking more at my eyelashes than the target. It's a shame because I think you can fit the whole lunar disk in at quite high mag which is impressive, I just found it too tiresome to use.

I think I would end up going for something like a 3.5 or 4.5mm Delos instead, much more comfortable eye relief, same image quality as and ethos although obviously not the same afov.

Great info - thanks. As I love using my 17mm Ethos, and all the Ethos EPs seem to have the same eye relief, this might work well for me. I have a 8mm Ethos lined up for acquisition next week; I'll see if I like that one just as well.

[Stu]

Just now, iPeace said:

Great info - thanks. As I love using my 17mm Ethos, and all the Ethos EPs seem to have the same eye relief, this might work well for me. I have a 8mm Ethos lined up for acquisition next week; I'll see if I like that one just as well.

The thing to be wary of is that, although the quoted eye relief is the same, the actual amount available depends upon the physical characteristics of the exit lens. If it is heavily concave then it feels a lot tighter. The additional 10 degrees afov also makes a difference, particularly if, like me, you feel the need to see the field stop all the time. I just ended up being uncomfortable.

You could always get a PowerMate for the 8mm, Ethos, that would work!

[iPeace]

2 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

As much as I love my zoom I agree with Stu. But then I prefer the zoom on the moon due to chromatic aberration that I get on these new wide field eyepieces on that target. The zoom is of course more flexible than single eyepieces at the cost of one of them

Yes, last night I found myself using the zoom as an alternative focuser as Jupiter kept changing its mind... have you experienced negative effects, specifically with a high-power Ethos, when observing the Moon? That's another target I'd like to enjoy as much as possible....

[iPeace]

1 minute ago, Stu said:

You could always get a PowerMate for the 8mm, Ethos, that would work!

I've wondered about that - how ungainly would things become? I thought I had a pretty good idea of what an eyepiece was until my 17mm Ethos and 41mm Panoptic arrived, and I'm just getting used to the amount of glass and casing that's involved, let's say, diagonal-side. I've never used a PowerMate, or Barlow of any kind - yet. Would inserting a PowerMate make a 8mm Ethos stick up so far that I'd wonder which side of the assembly I'm meant to look through? Sorry, just getting used to all this...

[John]

I'm a huge Ethos fan having the 21, 13, 8, 6 and, recently acquiring the 4.7mm SX. I've also very recently acquired a Nagler 2-4mm zoom. I also have Pentax XW's at 5mm and 3.5mm and Radians at 4mm and 3mm.

In the past I've owned a couple of Nagler 3-6 zooms and a couple of 2" 2x Powermates as well. You could say that I've been giving all the options a try !

The main competition in my lot is between the 4.7mm Ethos and the 5mm Pentax XW. It's "honors even" so far, except for the immense FoV of the Ethos SX of course. The 2-4mm zoom is intended primarily as a double star splitter.

From previous experience I'd say that the Nagler zooms fully match the performance of a Radian but not quite that of an Ethos and therefore also a Delos I guess (I've only owned one Delos - the 10mm).

 

 

[iPeace]

4 minutes ago, John said:

From previous experience I'd say that the Nagler zooms fully match the performance of a Radian but not quite that of an Ethos and therefore also a Delos I guess (I've only owned one Delos - the 10mm).

Matches my sneaking suspicions...

[Stu]

16 minutes ago, John said:

I'm a huge Ethos fan having the 21, 13, 8, 6 and, recently acquiring the 4.7mm SX. I've also very recently acquired a Nagler 2-4mm zoom. I also have Pentax XW's at 5mm and 3.5mm and Radians at 4mm and 3mm.

In the past I've owned a couple of Nagler 3-6 zooms and a couple of 2" 2x Powermates as well. You could say that I've been giving all the options a try !

The main competition in my lot is between the 4.7mm Ethos and the 5mm Pentax XW. It's "honors even" so far, except for the immense FoV of the Ethos SX of course. The 2-4mm zoom is intended primarily as a double star splitter.

From previous experience I'd say that the Nagler zooms fully match the performance of a Radian but not quite that of an Ethos and therefore also a Delos I guess (I've only owned one Delos - the 10mm).

 

 

How do you get on with the 4.7 John? Any issues similar to mine with the 3.7?

[John]

Not that the Radian's are in anyway poor eyepieces I ought to add - for their current used price I reckon they are very fine options.

Having done these sorts of comparisons for several years now, I suspect I'm going to find that each of the eyepieces I'm comparing has it's strong points and excellent moments, depending on target choice and scope choice.

Last night I got the best performance of all on Jupiter from a £50 Meade 4K series 6.7mm UWA as it happens - superb Japanese glass and a great Jupiter eyepiece in my 12" dob

Each time I feel I'm getting close to an "ideal" set, something like this happens to jolt me into more thinking ......

[Highburymark]

If you wanted a top quality, wider field zoom at high magnifications (and if you're talking Ethos type investment) then the Leica ASPH zoom will give you both when coupled with a decent Barlow. It's fantastic for lunar and planetary, but also for everything else down to 17.8mm. Just a thought to complicate matters - and in fact I got mine new for £420 from Photospecialist, which I believe is based in the Netherlands, £330 less than it costs from Leica retailers here in London. So less than the cost of the cheapest Ethos.

[Stu]

18 minutes ago, iPeace said:

I've wondered about that - how ungainly would things become? I thought I had a pretty good idea of what an eyepiece was until my 17mm Ethos and 41mm Panoptic arrived, and I'm just getting used to the amount of glass and casing that's involved, let's say, diagonal-side. I've never used a PowerMate, or Barlow of any kind - yet. Would inserting a PowerMate make a 8mm Ethos stick up so far that I'd wonder which side of the assembly I'm meant to look through? Sorry, just getting used to all this...

The simple answer is that, yes they can get a little ungainly and you need to be sure about the security of your fittings clamping the diagonal and eyepieces. Baader click lock kit is good in this regard.

The other alternative is something like a Baader VIP Barlow which is more compact, still very high quality and although is only 1.25" effectively that would be fine with the 8mm Ethos. Worth considering.

Don't rush into anything though, it's expensive stuff!

[iPeace]

4 minutes ago, John said:

Not that the Radian's are in anyway poor eyepieces I ought to add - for their current used price I reckon they are very fine options.

I acquired a 10mm Radian recently, it works very well, but whether it will remain in the lineup remains to be seen...(very much in the trying-stuff-out phase, myself).

[iPeace]

5 minutes ago, Stu said:

Don't rush into anything though, it's expensive stuff!

Thanks, I sort of noticed

[John]

3 minutes ago, iPeace said:

I acquired a 10mm Radian recently, it works very well, but whether it will remain in the lineup remains to be seen...(very much in the trying-stuff-out phase, myself).

I seem to have been in that phase for around a decade, ever since I joined this forum

Thank goodness for the 2nd hand market !

 

[iPeace]

41 minutes ago, John said:

I seem to have been in that phase for around a decade

I see the rest of my life flash before my eyes - and I like it

[Stu]

2 minutes ago, iPeace said:

Thanks, I sort of noticed

Do I win the 'state the blindingly obvious' prize for tonight? ??

[scarp15]

Very recently I switched from a 6mm delos to a 6mm ethos. The reasoning, I have other ethos e.p's and for general observing I felt that it was desirable to alternate between the same AFOV. The 6mm delos is a very comfortable and engaging eyepiece to observe with and I used it primarily with my TV76 and 8" F6 dobsonian. Since using the 6mm ethos I do notice my own eyelashes a little, since the eye relief as explained by Stu feels a little tighter. However two night ago I observed Jupiter at 200X using my 8" dobsonian, the moons were widely spread, the expansive image framed by the ethos.  I still have a 10mm delos and use a 5mm XW currently my highest power - hoping for a 4mm Delite to be introduced one day.     

[iPeace]

4 minutes ago, Stu said:

Do I win the 'state the blindingly obvious' prize for tonight? ??

You do indeed, if you insist...

I very much appreciate your advice on this point, I take your meaning in its proper feeling.

[Stu]

16 minutes ago, iPeace said:

You do indeed, if you insist...

I very much appreciate your advice on this point, I take your meaning in its proper feeling.

Great. I'm not saying 'don't', I'm just highlighting something which put me off so you go into any purchase with your eyes wide open.

[iPeace]

1 minute ago, Stu said:

Great. I'm not saying 'don't', I'm just highlighting something which put me off so you go into any purchase with your eyes wide open.

Indeed. I'm inclined to keep things simple and practical with maximum enjoyment - which, I'm discovering, doesn't necessarily imply cost effectiveness...

[Moonshane]

14 hours ago, iPeace said:

Yes, last night I found myself using the zoom as an alternative focuser as Jupiter kept changing its mind... have you experienced negative effects, specifically with a high-power Ethos, when observing the Moon? That's another target I'd like to enjoy as much as possible....

I have only ever had one Ethos (13mm now sold) but have had two Delos (17.3mm which I still have and an 8mm which I sold). All three of these as well as my current 26mm Nagler exhibit (to my eyes) a lot of 'lateral' (i.e. in the peripheral vision) colour solely on the moon. I discovered recently that I can replicate the effect by holding the eyepiece to my eye and looking at a bright light (e.g. the ceiling light in my lounge). With the Delos and 26mm Nagler the out of focus light creates almost kaleidoscopic chromatic aberration ( reddish browns and blues) on the edges of the pattern created by the light. The effect is not present with my Nagler zoom, Delites or Panoptics, my now sold T1 and 2 Naglers or my recently acquired 8.5mm Pentax XF. It was mildly present but bearable in the Radians I had. I suspect it's connected with the 'ring of fire effect' with those eyepieces affected as they have more of a 'ring of fire' than the ones not affected. I should stress that the only object I see this on is the moon (with all my scopes - ed fracs and newts). I should also stress that I am the only person in the world to my knowledge that sees these effects so it might be better to ignore what I say