Light Pollution: my councils response.

[Andrew INT]

Hi all,

Havinh a streetlight right next to my garden is pretty impactive on onservational astromomy. However, tthe light also makes it hard for my little boy to get to sleep since it is so close to his bedroom window.

Anyway, our street has not yet been adopted (despite having been built 3 years ago) and so I wrote a polite letter to my district council to see if it can be screened off (it gets turned off at 1am but goes back on at 5am).

The council ppollution control replied:

Looking at guidance, light pollution that interferes with clear skies and astronomy is not considered as part of statutory nuisance so we would not be able to help with this. However we can look into the concern of it affecting your bedrooms.

 

Im surprised that interference with astronomy isnt considered a nuisance. They plan to visit and look at my little boys bedroom when its dark and see what they can do. Hopefully they can kill two birds with one stone. Time will tell...

 

[baldeliftman]

Hi same problem with my next door neighbour's lights five in total burning all night long rang the council to be told they would only do some thing if you can read a paper or book in the room affected and it has to be a bedroom, and they had never heard of a dark sky policy, good luck you will need it dealing with councils

[Dave In Vermont]

LP has been associated with causing develpmental problems in young children, and a host of other medical problems too. So I'd suggest you return to your local government and do so armed with the latest research. And this can be obtained through the International Dark-Sky Association:

http://darksky.org/

The mounting evidence currently is implicating LP with a plethora of damages way beyond just us astronomy folks. All the way to cause the extinction of different species and killing off nocturnal animals and birds. The above link will help you get the needed materials to light a fire under the behinds of your local council.

God-speed,

Dave

 

[Andrew INT]

Thanks Baldeliftman: You could easily read a book in my sons bedroom with the blinds open. However, we have fitted both blinds and a backout roller-blind too, so light now only gets through at the sides. They want me to send them more photos of the lamp. (I sent them daytime photos- they want ones taken in the dark to see what the lamp looks like turned on...I guess they cant use their imagination   ) Was the book reading test conducted with the windows exposed?

 

Thanks Dave for the great link. Depending on how the local council environmental pollution officer deals with things, I can always send some of the links to our local Councilor. Local authorities are always a bit nervous when they get involved with anything since they are elected individuals.

Many thanks for all the info. I'll keep you updated after they visit one night.

Kind regards,

Andrew

[PeterCPC]

FYI I contacted our Council to ask for 2 streetlights to be screened because, since they were converted to white light, they are more intrusive. They fitted internal screens to both of them and the difference is minimal at best. So don't expect too much. Good luck.

Peter

[todd8137]

contact enviromental health  in your local area explain its keeping your son awake ,never tell the council your  a astro guy as that will seal your fate 

but contact them they should send you a sheet out to log the offending light , good luck 

quote this environmental health act 1990, section 79 light pol

pat

[Andrew INT]

Thanks for the info Pat.

The latest update is that I have since discovered that my street is yet to be adopted by the council. A helpful woman at environmental health requested that I send her photos of the light at night from outside and inside the house. She said that she could see it was a real issue for my son (but cant help re astronomy). Anyway, she contacted the developers and has told them to screen the light- which they have promised to do in the very near future. 

I'm rather hoping that I can catch the engineers when they turn up and give them some guidance re light falling onto all of the garden. The lady to the council has said to contact her again if the shielding (for the bedroom) is not effective.

Only time will tell...

[todd8137]

Keep phone in the  lady up (EH) for updates  every other day if you can the more you keep at them they will soon get sick of your calls and respond quicker and get the developers,to,pull the fingers out a good lip filter is always with considering so not be tempted to scrape on this save if you have to keep the post updated ,am still not sure why there is not a pinned post here on sgl with advice in a non threading way how to contact environmental health ,people mainly go to the council and mention telescope big no 

keep the post updated as and when you get any news good luck 

pat

[beamer3.6m]

On 23/02/2016 at 21:49, Andrew INT said:

 

Im surprised that interference with astronomy isnt considered a nuisance...

 

Why are you surprised at this.

Despite what people on SGL think astronomy is not that important in the scheme of things to the majority of people.

We enjoy it yes, its our hobby yes but its not important to the other 99% of the population (no doubt someone will quote the percentage of astronomers but I'm just making a point).

I always find it interesting when those involved in a hobby (be it whatever) assume that others need to also take an interest.

I have no interest in stamp collecting. If they stopped selling stamps I would not care but no doubt the stamp collecting community would be in uproar and surprised that I dont care (again no doubt someone will say everyday stamps are not collected etc buts its just an example).

[todd8137]

15 minutes ago, beamer3.6m said:

Why are you surprised at this.

Despite what people on SGL think astronomy is not that important in the scheme of things to the majority of people.

We enjoy it yes, its our hobby yes but its not important to the other 99% of the population (no doubt someone will quote the percentage of astronomers but I'm just making a point).

I always find it interesting when those involved in a hobby (be it whatever) assume that others need to also take an interest.

I have no interest in stamp collecting. If they stopped selling stamps I would not care but no doubt the stamp collecting community would be in uproar and surprised that I dont care (again no doubt someone will say everyday stamps are not collected etc buts its just an example).

Just like oil spills and car exhaust fumes pollution is one of the same , the goverment recognise as the same as fumes and oil spills,,what you say is partly true but flawed ,3/4 streets lights being covered by a shield let's say in Derbyshire .would not make much diference to the 81,000 they take care of if there was less cars in the centre of  a city the lead in the air,would drop 65% but taking3 cars of the street would make no diference to that number am surprised you seem a little angry a fellow astronomer would even point this fact out  am lost by your answer but debate is is what we have and it's great we can discuss this 

not only switching more lights on a night would,save the environment  ect 

pat

[Andrew INT]

2 hours ago, beamer3.6m said:

Why are you surprised at this.

Despite what people on SGL think astronomy is not that important in the scheme of things to the majority of people.

We enjoy it yes, its our hobby yes but its not important to the other 99% of the population (no doubt someone will quote the percentage of astronomers but I'm just making a point).

I always find it interesting when those involved in a hobby (be it whatever) assume that others need to also take an interest.

I have no interest in stamp collecting. If they stopped selling stamps I would not care but no doubt the stamp collecting community would be in uproar and surprised that I dont care (again no doubt someone will say everyday stamps are not collected etc buts its just an example).

Hi Beamer3,

 

My post is actually about light falling into my garden; it is not concerning the lighting of the street or general skyward light pollution. 99.99+% of the population have no interest in the fact that my son finds it hard to sleep at night due to the light. It is not of any importance to them, and rightly so. However, it IS a nuisance to my son and I. 

The point I was making is this: Light falling unnecessarily into my garden IS IMPORTANT TO ME. My intent is not to deprive the community of street lighting. To add further clarity for you, beamer3, I do not assume others have need to take an interest in astronomy. That would be extremely naive . Its all about being reasonable.  Is it reasonable that the community should receive adequate street lighting for their tax - YES. However, is is reasonable that that tax money should also be unnecessarily lighting up private property, against the wishes of the property owner, keeping a little boy awake at night AND inhibiting my enjoyment of astronomy - NO.

I hope that this answers your "So why are you surprised at this" comment.

[beamer3.6m]

I took no issue with the light keeping your son awake. This is indeed unreasonable.

Also wanting the light shielded etc so you can enjoy your hobby is also reasonable.

I queried why you thought it "surprising" that interfering with a very niche hobby which is undertaken by the minority is not considered a nuisance.

[Andrew INT]

Because your second point above, which you agree is reasonable, is only deemed reasonable regarding my son, and not any impact on astronomy.

Regarding your final point, I think if unwanted and unnecessary lighting interferes with ANYTHING, reasonable consideration should be given; be that astronomy, sleeping, pets, security...or stamp collecting. If it is unnecessary, unwanted and a nuisance, that is NOT reasonable- regardless of any niche!

[Uplooker]

Hi Andrew,

You have my sympathies. I have a similar situations, although the light does not affect my children's bedrooms, it does ours and where I plan to build my obs. New development, unadopted road. Lights that are directly opposite the house and are at least twice as high (40 ft) and 3-4 times as bright as surrounding lights - I have a battle on my hands :-(

[Andrew INT]

10 hours ago, Uplooker said:

Hi Andrew,

You have my sympathies. I have a similar situations, although the light does not affect my children's bedrooms, it does ours and where I putilitiesbuild my obs. New development, unadopted road. Lights that are directly opposite the house and are at least twice as high (40 ft) and 3-4 times as bright as surrounding lights - I have a battle on my hands :-(

Hi Uplooker,

Thats pretty much the same situation we have. The developers have sold all their houses and moved on to their next project. Three years later we are still not adopted because the Utilities are not happy with some of their drainage work ect. 

Take plenty of photos at day and night and send them to the council If the developers dont help!

Good luck...

[Andrew INT]

As a quick update, an engineer fitted a shield to the street lamp last week. Ironically, it only shields the garden (and observatory area) rather than my little sons bedroom! It is bigger than I had thought and it has made a noticeable improvement to the garden so I'm pretty happy.

There is a very slight improvement to my sons bedroom but not great; it really needed shielding from the side, not the rear for  that! I can now actually see Polaris with the naked eye from my observing spot