Is Andromeda a really tough target?

[ryandsimmons]

Last night I again attempted Andromeda.  20 subs at 30 secs each, and nothing.  Just a bright core and nothing else.  Stretching the pics I cannot even see an outline, just one bright small blob.

I know light pollution was bad last night, but I would have expected something.

Whereas doing similar with Bodes Galaxy and the Whirlpool I get quite clear, striking images with that sort of attempt.

What really gets me is that as per usual I also did 2x30 sec subs of a few other targets (so I can work out next projects) and I got images like this of the Dumbbell that I have attached.  It shows nice definition and colour even in such a short test shot.

Is Andromeda normally so tricky to get?

I was going to try 50x30 subs of Andromda tonight, but I think I may just try for the dumbbell instead.

[Steve Ward]

Not sure of you set-up but you'll need a much wider FOV to get M31 framed .

Couple of screenshots from Stellarium here to show rough comparison between M27 and M31 with same camera and scope set-ups.

[ryandsimmons]

Well that will be that then!

I can't make out the gradient as I am pretty much getting a solid white image!

Cheers.

[ronin]

There seems to be 2 "difficult" aspects of Andromeda:

It is big much bigger then many can get clear in their mind. Being 3 degrees you are likely to need a 5 or higher field on the camera sensor. Sort of OK with a short focal length and a DSLR, more difficult otherwise.

The core is brighter then the disk, so that bit often gets over exposed, so you get a core and some indistinct fuzz or the start of arms ans structure and a burnt out core.

[ryandsimmons]

Oh, speaking of targets I am struggling at the moment.  I tend to have a small area of sky to play with.  Generally the zenith, with maybe 45 degrees down to the NE / East / South East.

I can see a lot more than that, however Gatwick Airport really lights up the sky to the South West, and North West people keep staying up late with light on in their house.

Are there any good targets near the zenith?  Or are there any good tools for looking for such targets?  Ideally I would like something like Skysafari that can filter by area of sky.

The zenith does seem to be rather empty at the moment doesn't it?

[Knight of Clear Skies]

Andromeda has a lower surface brightness than Bode's, and much lower than the Dumbbell. 30 second subs are rather short for such a target, although this will be heavily dependant on the speed of your scope. You don't say what camera and scope you are using. Is the 30 second restriction due to tracking or the camera? If you are using a DSLR you can buy a remote timer for about £15 which will allow longer exposures.

Also, what is your ISO level set to? Thinking about it, Andromeda showed up fairly clearly when I took a 30 second test shot with my 250mm lens, f5.6, ISO 800.

There are quite a few DSOs near the zenith at the moment, but they aren't necessarily the easiest to image. This site is very handy, it gives you a list of DSOs visible from your location tonight. There are several handy filters, for example you set it to only show objects that reach a high altitude or have a high surface brightness.

Hope that is some help.

[JamesF]

You also need to be sure you haven't picked up M32 instead, which can be a bit embarrassing.  Not that I've ever done that, you understand.  Nooo, not me.  I let someone else use my kit for the evening, honest.

James

[ryandsimmons]

Cheers guys.

I am using a C8 SCT on a CG5 GT, with a Cannon EOS 1000D.

Not great for AP I know, but good enough for an amateur like me to play around and get some cool images that make me happy, if not enough to impress people who know what they are doing...

[JamesF]

You've got way too much focal length there for M31, really.  To frame M31 nicely with a crop-sensor DSLR you really much less focal length.  200mm would probably be nearer the mark rather than 2000mm.

James

[wuthton]

Not great for AP I know, but good enough for an amateur like me to play around and get some cool images that make me happy

A fine philosophy that should be repeated more often.

Your field of view is going to be too limited for M31.

A general answer to your first question is: it is easy to get "an image" of M31 but it is a tricky target to achieve a reasonably good image.

[Blazar]

Had a chance to go for the great globular cluster in Hercules? I use a similar setup to you (edge 8 on a VX)...and think its a great thing to have a stab at. Here is a single shot of it 60 seconds unguided (ASPA used)...iso 800, using a Canon EOS-M

I have tried Andromeda...but again think I need the focal reducer to help me out... so far in a single shot, i got this (and not processed very well:

I did take lots of other ones and try stacking them, but after running the stacking, I cannot process it, as my photoshop says I don't have enough memory!

good luck with other targets though.

[ryandsimmons]

A fine philosophy that should be repeated more often.

To be honest I think forums like this can be counter productive as much as they can be helpful.

My whirlpool wowed everyone in my office and my wife, and I was well chuffed.

Then I looked some of the images here and just thought how rubbish it actually was.  A blurry monochrome spiral whereas the ones on here are beautiful crystal clear with gases and pinpoint stars.  It genuinely almost made me give up trying AP until I spent another £2000 on equipment.

Then my wife gave me a metaphorical slap around the face and reminded me that despite the amazing stuff here, what I took is still more than 99% of the planet have even seen.  :-)

So now I try my best and am working on the learning curve, but have removed any expectations of even coming close to the amazing sights on this board.  Well at least until I can buy full AP equipment and move into the sahara desert!

[Knight of Clear Skies]

A nice thing about astronomy is that it can be conducted at whatever level you are comfortable with, from naked eye to deep imaging. A very modest scope or camera will still show sights denied to most people in history. I find going through the process of imaging is worthwhile in itself, it gives me a better appreciation of both the target itself and other people's images.

[kalasinman]

@Blazar "

I did take lots of other ones and try stacking them, but after running the stacking, I cannot process it, as my photoshop says I don't have enough memory!

good luck with other targets though."   Yes I have the same issue. I load the subs in LR and just save them as  TIFF. Even though they are already TIFF, the filesize is greatly reduced, then PS likes them.--Jack

[Knight of Clear Skies]

Since you have an equatorial mount another option you have is to mount the camera directly onto it. Here's my Andromeda with a 50mm lens, about an hours worth of 150 second exposures.

Had a chance to go for the great globular cluster in Hercules?

Nice glob, and a good target for that kind of scope.

[ryandsimmons]

Wow!  I need to get a lens for my camera and try that.  That is stunning! (I bought the camera body only.)

And Hercules I think may be tonight's target as a something different.  Cheers for all the advice!

[JamesF]

There are quite a few globs in the sky over the summer and autumn that are feasible targets for imaging with a Mak or SCT.  It's well worth attempting a few to get a comparison between them.

James

[Blazar]

To be honest I think forums like this can be counter productive as much as they can be helpful.

My whirlpool wowed everyone in my office and my wife, and I was well chuffed.

Then I looked some of the images here and just thought how rubbish it actually was.  A blurry monochrome spiral whereas the ones on here are beautiful crystal clear with gases and pinpoint stars.  It genuinely almost made me give up trying AP until I spent another £2000 on equipment.

Then my wife gave me a metaphorical slap around the face and reminded me that despite the amazing stuff here, what I took is still more than 99% of the planet have even seen.  :-)

So now I try my best and am working on the learning curve, but have removed any expectations of even coming close to the amazing sights on this board.  Well at least until I can buy full AP equipment and move into the sahara desert!

Don't ever feel that what you produce is rubbish. All images taken are valuable in their own right, as its how you learn and is a visible record of your progress. I used to use my TAL's and a camera through the EP for a year or so, and really enjoyed the thrill of not only taking images but also learning what worked and what did not. I then went on to get the C8 with the express intention of doing planetary work...which I will get to when I can afford to go for the webcam I really want (ZWO), and I will use JamesF OA capture o my MAC (thanks James!)...but I took those images 'just to see if I could get anything'...and thats part of the fun IMO....

Every imager on this forum started in the same place...its just they are a few steps ahead (They have all learnt the same lessons though), and I don't think you ever stop learning. Just keep experimenting...and remember to have fun ;-)

good luck!

Regards

[Leveye]

I ended up layermasking exposure to get the core right. Ones of the core at about 30 seconds iso 400 and ones at 3-5 minutes at iso 800 for the disc.

[ryandsimmons]

There are quite a few DSOs near the zenith at the moment, but they aren't necessarily the easiest to image. This site is very handy, it gives you a list of DSOs visible from your location tonight. There are several handy filters, for example you set it to only show objects that reach a high altitude or have a high surface brightness.

Wow, just had a chance to check out this link.

It is fantastic and exactly what I have been looking for. Thank you so much.

Just the one query though sorry, when I enter the filters it says it finds hundreds of objects, but when I download a spreadsheet it only downloads 21 items (the page I am on.)  Is there a way to download more at once?

[ryandsimmons]

Wow, just had a chance to check out this link.

It is fantastic and exactly what I have been looking for. Thank you so much.

Just the one query though sorry, when I enter the filters it says it finds hundreds of objects, but when I download a spreadsheet it only downloads 21 items (the page I am on.)  Is there a way to download more at once?

Damn, wish there was an edit button.  Thanks in this post are still relevant, ignore the question.  I found it.

[ronin]

There "is" an edit button, but you need 250 posts to get it, so 166 more to go. :evil6:

[ryandsimmons]

165!

...

...

Okay, that was a rubbish joke. 

[Knight of Clear Skies]

Thanks in this post are still relevant, ignore the question.

You're welcome. There is also a nice illustrated guide to DSOs here, as a series of PDF files.

[Earl]

Andromeda is easy enought to get, but not any easy one to get right.