New to Astronomy, problems with alignment

[vertigo262]

Hi,

I decided I wanted to get into a new hobby and also, new category of my photography, so I bought a telescope.

Because I don't know what I am doing I bought an advanced vx mount with a meade lx80 and a starsense. a skyfi with skysafari.

I've been out 7 times and this is a lot harder then I thought even with all the computer equipment to help me.

My problem seems to be consistent which is the alignment.

At first, I went out and aligned the telescope to Polaris and auto aligned the star sense, which seems to align. so it says. Usually though, when I try to point it to a star, or even the moon, it does not align and I have to slew it manually. It gets close, but never in view as I think the moon would be the easiest of tests.

While slowly learning, and watching the skyfi, I also noticed the the tracking is off. After a minute or so, the telescope moves off of position.

After doing some research, my conclusion was that I was aligning Polaris to the telescope and not using a polar scope, and the reason my alignment is always off is because the equatorial mount needs to be precise on polar alignment.

After going out the other night, and using the polar scope, alignment was way off. even more then before I think,

although, being new to this, I have a really difficult time using the viewfinder, telescope, and polar scope and seeing whats in the lens. Even though I can map out Cassiopeia, big dipper, and Polaris looking up, I have a hard time seeing it in the lenses because the crowded stars in the lenses.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong, and I'm sure this is probably a common problem among beginners. 

If anyone has any input on what I am doing wrong, or the sequence of steps I should be taking to get everything aligned right, I'd appreciate the input.

[itmo]

does the aligntment matter that much? I mean it usually only matters if you are doing long exposure astro photography. 

But anyways. Depending on how you scope works, you should have a way of fine-tuning the aligntment during scope use. google for "drift alignment". basically the idea is to see which way the stars drift and correct alignment based on that. 

[vertigo262]

I was assuming because I have an equatorial mount, and the star sense aligned to 5 points, that once it locks onto the object you point it too, it should stay with it. Also, at the point that it slews to the object, it should be in scope so I shouldn't have to figure out how to find it. 

I figured that was the whole point of having a computer to find and track. The only thing that isn't done by computer is aligning the tripod to polaris. Which makes me think that could be the only reason why everything would be off. 

But I'm not sure what I am doing wrong

[wuthton]

Are you sure you are aligning with Polaris. The polar scope should not be "busy" with stars as Polaris is fairly out on it's own.

[PeterCPC]

The Starsense accessory does not need to be precisely polar aligned to work. You should set the telescope to its home position and point it North (as accurately as possible but don't get hung up about it) - the telescope should be level and the dec set to your own latitude. Then you do the alignment setting up the mount with the time etc. Accurate polar alignment can be done once aligned using ASPA. Just one thought though - Starsense is normally for Celestron scopes and you are using a Meade - could that be the problem? Page 6 of the Starsense manual does not mention your scope. It says that it works with most computerised Celestron telescopes.

Peter

[vertigo262]

I have a celestron advanced vx mount, with the meade mounted to that.

http://www.celestron.com/browse-shop/astronomy/mounts-and-tripods/advanced-vx-mount

I wouldn't think the telescope isn't an issue, it's just a 6" cassagrain

The motors are all in the celestron mount. I am aiming it to polaris, I am 100% sure, except I don't know how accurate my declination is, but it have it around 32 degrees using skify app in my area saying that is what declination is, and I can see polaris through the scope, then I tried honing it in using the polar scope, which I had trouble because the lens is so wide, had everything in it, I think,  which is where I had troubles getting it exact.

But I'd think the declination would need to be pretty precise

When you say home, do you mean I should align the telescope to "home" on the celestron menu settings on the hand control? this I have not been doing.

I align the clutches to 0 postion on R.A. and Dec and then  turn it on, choose Auto Align on the star sense where it aligns to 5 points successfully. And try to get it pointing to polaris as close as possible.

But then seems to have alignment issues.

[ronin]

I expect that it is a simple bit either set wrong or not set.

You are right in that you align the mount not the scope, at least initially.

In general adjust the legs so that the head is level, level is more relevant to the software having to determine the errors so these are as minimum as they can be. It is easier to compensate for 1/10 degree then 5 degrees.

You seem to be at 34N so set the latitude on the EQ mount to that.

Aim the mount North, is there a big N on one leg? and perform the polar alignment with the polarscope.

That should be the mount aligned sufficent for visual.

You can add the scope on now if not already on but the mount alignment is seperate of the scope.

Check your data for location, date and timezone for the starsense, and if it has an initial start position plalce the scope at that position. Likely to be set scope horizontal or aim scope at Polaris. Then do the Starsense alignment.for the scope.

Not familiar with the Starsense although one other posts came up here about 2 weeks ago.

I do agree with the post asking if you have Polaris, that bit of the sky is fairly devoid of stars, so Polaris should stand out fairly well.

[vertigo262]

I have been doing all of this, to the best of my knowledge,

but I must be missing something.

My first question is, with the vx mount, and a starsense, how accurate does polar alignment have to be, especially for tracking?

I guess the next step would be having someone with the same setup have some kind of procedure. 

For example, I noticed that the hand controller has a home function. And you can even set your home function. And on some occasions, I've tried pushing, go home, before alignment.

But usually I just 0 out the clutches, turn it on, and then align. 

Maybe I am missing something,

But then, I tried calibrating the star sense camera. 

I'm not really sure what is helping and what is not. 

on some occasions my alignment was better, and some worse. Yet, the computer itself if it locks onto 5 points, I would think would be accurate. But it isn't.

So my only guess is that polar alignment has to be dead on. 

I don't think I've ever accurately had it tracking right.

But then I read a couple of things that said with the star sense, it doesn't need to be accurate, just aimed at polaris.

So I am completely confused.

the other night I went out, did a simple test. Aligned it roughly to polaris, auto aligned the computer, told it to go to the moon. In this order.

it couldn't do that accurately, which makes me think something is very wrong.

And if I can't align to something as simple as the moon, forget any deep space objects

[wuthton]

Same as Ronin I have no experience with Celestron mounts but it is certainly worth checking that your location, time and date settings are correct and in the correct format on the handset.

I don't know if Celestron is MM/DD/YYYY or DD/MM/YYYY but it is worth checking.

Time, date and location settings are a common source alignment problems on Skywatcher mounts.

[vertigo262]

that was my first mistake on the first night out. but after that, I checked them. seem to be fine.

although I did turn on the daylight savings option, it is possible that should stay off

[RichM63]

Time, date and location settings are a common source alignment problems on Skywatcher mounts.

+ 1 on getting this correct. If this is wrong then you will be all over the place and no amount of stab in the dark will help.

I'd start all over again from the very beginning, step by step, and not push any random buttons along the way.

A brief search reveals;

34.1683 N

118.6050 W (or - 118.6050 depending on system).

and UTC -8 or -7 depending on DST

[Blazar]

Have you used the All Star Polar Align (ASPN) feature yet?  Within the Align menu on the handset, there is one for Polar alignment. There is also a readout that tells you how far off from a good alignment you are. so whilst your star sense might get you close its not going to be spot on (IMO). after all its not guiding...

The routine I use with my Advanced VX after levelling and aligning to north, is to do a standard 2 plus four calibration star alignment.  Then run an ASPA routine (look in the manual for the process you follow) and then check the polar alignment details to see how far out it thinks you are, then switch off the mount. re-set to home on both axis. Switch on the mount, do another 2 plus 4 calibration alignment, and another ASPA.  then check the alignment again. Some guys then do another set (switch off, 2 plus 4 then ASPA) to really try and nail it.

The ASPA seems to work quite well. I have done 60 seconds unguided shots with it with little  effects on the image. As with all things it takes a bit of getting used to, so would suggest getting used to the mount features and go from there.

Think there might be a video on you tube about it....sure I saw a link somewhere..

yes here it is HEREhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coXGvcgHOMA

[vertigo262]

I just checked my settings, the time is on from last time going out. 

the only align I have done is auto align. have not tried ASPN.

Also Blazer, how accurate does my polar align have to be with this mount?

but shouldn't auto align be good enough to point to the moon, amongst other objects?

[PeterCPC]

For visual work your Polar Align is not critical. I have the AVX and I set the EQ to the correct lattitude, level the tripod, then point it North (as accurate as I can but without a polar scope). Then I auto align and it does just that but it needs to know what scope you are using because it needs to know the relationship between the scope and where the Starsense camera is and I wonder if this is the issue. By home I mean getting the marks aligned.

Peter

[Blazar]

I just checked my settings, the time is on from last time going out. 

the only align I have done is auto align. have not tried ASPN.

Also Blazer, how accurate does my polar align have to be with this mount?

but shouldn't auto align be good enough to point to the moon, amongst other objects?

 Well the star sense should do as Peter suggested. it maps the scope to the sky and then you have your pointing or goto sorted. Polar alignment is really only needed for long exposure astrophotography (and then for DSO work). 

Think Peter could have hit upon the issue though...and it might be worth confirming with Celestron if they will support the Meade. failing that...remove star sense and do your own goto alignment.  I would give that a go...its also a great way to learn the night sky. use stellarium (free app) or sky safari to help determine which stars you want to align on and have a go! then you will see if its the star sense or not. 

Also, what EP size are you using when aligning? 

[wuthton]

Think Peter could have hit upon the issue though...and it might be worth confirming with Celestron if they will support the Meade.

Just out of interest, could you explain how a different OTA could effect alignment.

[Blazar]

Well its a good theory...it seems funny (unless its a marketing ploy) that there is a supported scopes and mount list (in the star sense manual..as per Peters comment). As stated I do not have one, and use the standard method of aligning my goto. 

However just downloaded the manual, and first time out you need to calibrate the centre...using low then higher power EP's to get a named star into the centre of the EP. The system then knows where the exact centre of the scopes FOV is. perhaps this process was not followed, and the quick align used....but without the system knowing the scopes FOV cause it to point incorrectly? Looks as though you can also improve the pointing accuracy further by using additional calibration references (up to 9!)

Best if I let someone with the device comment, I don't meant o confuse the OP...they are having enough problems already!

Regards

PS...Its either that or meet them next week when I'm in LA...will be going to a star party whilst I'm out there, so might be a good place to take the scope.

[wuthton]

The OTA can make no difference as long as it's balanced. The centre of FOV is the centre regardless of whether it is a 2000mm F10 or a 400mm F5.

[PeterCPC]

As I said the Starsense needs to know what telescope is being used as it needs to know the distance between the centre of the scope and the centre of the Starsense camera. If this is out even a small amount it will throw off the alignment. I would check with Celestron as the scope is not listed as compatible with the AVX. As Blazer suggests, try an alignment without Starsense and see if that works. If it does then it must be that Starsense is not compatible with your scope.

Peter 

[wuthton]

As I said the Starsense needs to know what telescope is being used as it needs to know the distance between the centre of the scope and the centre of the Starsense camera. If this is out even a small amount it will throw off the alignment. I would check with Celestron as the scope is not listed as compatible with the AVX. As Blazer suggests, try an alignment without Starsense and see if that works. If it does then it must be that Starsense is not compatible with your scope.

Peter

Ahh! I see! My celestron ignorance has shown up.

So starsense is basically a plate solver, in which case the field of view would be critical for it to work correctly.

I stand corrected.

[Thalestris24]

Hi

The manual says the first time you setup you have to calibrate the centre of your scope (p12 http://www.celestron.com/c3/support3/index.php?_m=downloads&_a=viewdownload&downloaditemid=865&nav=0)

It's always a good idea to read through a manual then follow it step by step until you feel familiar with things 

If you intend to get into astrophotography I recommend you read a good, up to date book on amateur astrophotography. It's quite a demanding hobby and I'm sure you'd find it useful to do some study first.

Hth

Louise

[wuthton]

Hi

The manual says the first time you setup you have to calibrate the centre of your scope (p12 http://www.celestron.com/c3/support3/index.php?_m=downloads&_a=viewdownload&downloaditemid=865&nav=0)

It's always a good idea to read through a manual then follow it step by step until you feel familiar with things 

If you intend to get into astrophotography I recommend you read a good, up to date book on amateur astrophotography. It's quite a demanding hobby and I'm sure you'd find it useful to do some study first.

Hth

Louise

I assume, like me you thought starsense was just an alignment routine?

Starsense is a plate solver, if the FOV is not supported no amount of reading the manual is going to make it work.

[Thalestris24]

I assume, like me you thought starsense was just an alignment routine?

Starsense is a plate solver, if the FOV is not supported no amount of reading the manual is going to make it work.

Hi

The Starsense is a standalone camera, is it not? It's fov must be fixed? I imagine it would be compatible with the Advanced VX mount. Which ota is being used would seem to be irrelevant so long as it's reasonably balanced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh3UawHr0oQ

Louise

[Blazar]

Did just find these comments from a Baader planetarium PDF regarding the Celestron Starsense:

starsense“ contains a dedicated hand control unit (HC) and a CCD-camera module, both may be added to almost every Celestron GoTo tele- scope sold in the last 10 ye-

ars. (Note it does not mention any other manufacturer)

Also in respect of what the device does they put it: starsen- se is easily ancamera and a clever software wich is bringing professional „plate solving“ tech- nology into the hands of the astronomy ama- teur. 

​They also mention the EQ mount setup: star sense“ can also be attached onto equato- rial mounts. at first the user has to do a short polar alignment with the revolutionary Celest- ron „all star alignment“. It is only necessary to drive to one single star and center it with the alT and aZ axis. It does not matter wich star

it is, Polaris must not be visible. after performing this rudimentary „all star alignment“, the „starsen- se“ electronic takes over and takes 3 photos of the sky to find orientation. 

Bottom line I think that perhaps whomever sold the set-up should have pointed out it might not work without a celestron OTA...though seems short sighted of Celestron...though does enforce 'lock in' of consumers I guess.

Hopefully someone with a non celestron scope on a VX will be along shortly to put us all right ;-)

regards

[vertigo262]

I will try a calibration again. I did it before, but last time out cleared it because it still wasn't aligning. but then I'm not so sure I was 100% calibrated right the first time