Looking for upgrade advice

[SlyReaper]

I currently own a Skywatcher Explorer 130 (spherical mirror, not the parabolic one).  Thinking of getting the Skywatcher Explorer 200P on an EQ5 mount.  Am I being daft?  5 inches to 8 inches should capture more than twice the light, but I live in a suburban area with some light pollution, so will I actually see that much difference?  The fact that the mirror is parabolic might sharpen some of the images a bit? 

I actually have a fair bit of money to spend at the moment, so would it be worth going for a 10 or 12 inch?  Can you even get telescopes that big on an equatorial mount?  I'd rather not go for a dob just yet because I want to be able to track, and by my understanding, the only way to track with a dob is by using a goto system?  Aside from the cost, I like the organic feel of manually pointing my scope, so I'd rather not use a goto system just yet.

[Mr Spock]

The 200 will be a large improvement in image quality. A 250 is even better, but that will need an EQ6.

You don't have to use the goto on a dob, just use the tracking.

[ronin]

It is not a straight forward thing to upgrade.

What eyepieces have you.

If just what came with the 130 then will you be getting additional ones for an 8" or 10" scope.

I suspect the answer is yes, or at least very likely.

Even if you got the BST's then I tend to suggest 4 eyepieces as a sensible minimum that is £200 in addition to the scope.

Have you got a collimator ?

If no add another £25-30.

It is very easy to have more money invested in eyepieces then in a scope. Just the 6 BST's alone would be £300. And they would be an inexpensive but good set to own and use.

What extra will you see, well really you get more of the small faint things. My 70 shows things like Orion in good detail, Jupiter is sharp and the banding clear, all Jovian moons are clear and you can tell the colour differences. That is in a 70mm refractor. I do need a little more for Saturn, but have yet to have a better view of Saturn then I did through a Tal refractor of 100mm. All significantly smaller then your present 130.

At the rear end of Leo lie's a galaxy cluster.

By eye difficult to see any, with binoculars about 20 appear, in a 70mm scope about 30, in an 8" say 40-50. However they are always small faint disks, no more. They do not become dazzling spiral galaxies of majestic colour, unless you own Hubble, and even then you still have to process the image.

Point being the additional things are the ones that are small and faint, and they remain small and faint.

Rather like a goto, is the goto with a databsse of 20,000 object better then one with 5,000 objects?

Very likely not, you would very likely have a list of 15,000 extra things that you cannot see, or were so faint that they were meaningless.

[NGC 1502]

The extra light grasp from 5 to 8 inches is a worthwhile upgrade wherever the scope is used, town or country.

There used to be the idea ( that still persists ) that the extra light grasp under a light polluted sky just sucks in more light pollution, but I and many others have found that it doesn't work like that, you just get better views.

Tracking for a Dobsonian here  http://www.dobsonians.co.uk/Equatorial%20Platforms.html  or if you are handy, it's DIY project.

Regards, Ed.

[SlyReaper]

It is not a straight forward thing to upgrade.

What eyepieces have you.

If just what came with the 130 then will you be getting additional ones for an 8" or 10" scope.

I suspect the answer is yes, or at least very likely.

Even if you got the BST's then I tend to suggest 4 eyepieces as a sensible minimum that is £200 in addition to the scope.

Have you got a collimator ?

If no add another £25-30.

It is very easy to have more money invested in eyepieces then in a scope. Just the 6 BST's alone would be £300. And they would be an inexpensive but good set to own and use.

What extra will you see, well really you get more of the small faint things. My 70 shows things like Orion in good detail, Jupiter is sharp and the banding clear, all Jovian moons are clear and you can tell the colour differences. That is in a 70mm refractor. I do need a little more for Saturn, but have yet to have a better view of Saturn then I did through a Tal refractor of 100mm. All significantly smaller then your present 130.

At the rear end of Leo lie's a galaxy cluster.

By eye difficult to see any, with binoculars about 20 appear, in a 70mm scope about 30, in an 8" say 40-50. However they are always small faint disks, no more. They do not become dazzling spiral galaxies of majestic colour, unless you own Hubble, and even then you still have to process the image.

Point being the additional things are the ones that are small and faint, and they remain small and faint.

Rather like a goto, is the goto with a databsse of 20,000 object better then one with 5,000 objects?

Very likely not, you would very likely have a list of 15,000 extra things that you cannot see, or were so faint that they were meaningless.

My eyepieces are 25mm, 10mm, and 4mm plus a 2x Barlow lens that I never use. I'm well aware the scope I'm thinking of would duplicate the 25mm and 10mm eyepieces.

I'm also well aware that I'm not going to get Hubble quality images, not really sure why you felt the need to point that out. I'm not some starry eyed fool who gets disappointed every time I look through the scope.

At the moment, my scope can see fuzzy cloud bands on Jupiter, very faint dark albedo features on Mars, and the rings of Saturn very clearly but not the Cassini Division. I'd like to be able to see the great red spot, the Martian polar caps, some ring detail at Saturn, and perhaps some cloud bands on Saturn as well.

Also, hope to see some DSOs with it.

[dannybgoode]

I'm also well aware that I'm not going to get Hubble quality images, not really sure why you felt the need to point that out. I'm not some starry eyed fool who gets disappointed every time I look through the scope. 

You would be somewhat peeved if you asked for advice in the beginners section and someone convinced you to part with several hundred pounds and you were not aware nor advised that a larger scope may not deliver the images you were looking for...

You did not state your level of experience or that you were not a starry eyed fool so ronin was quite right to include this caveat 

[SlyReaper]

Sorry, it just came across as a little condescending. Apologies if I overreacted.

[Pondus]

Heya.

I upgraded from Skywatcher 130p heritage to Orion XT8i dobsonian, which is similar to 200p (same mirrors I think). An upgrade from 5" to 8".

I haven’t tested them side by side on DSO`s , but I compared them on the 3 planets Jupiter, Mars and Saturn. 

Same Eyepiece used (Hyperion zoom+barlow) which gives me max 180x on the heritage and 337x on the Orion.

Some LP from the town, neighbours and streetlights.

Important : I am a total novice, with very little experience compared to most of the members in SGL.

Jupiter (beginning of april)  approx. 120-150x on both scopes (200x for a minute or two with the XT8i):

130p :  2 clear belts, GRS and shadowtransit ; I felt I had to work hard to observe the GRS and shadowtransit. Except for the two belts the planet is quite bright.

XT8i   : Bigger, spotted GRS and shadowtransit instantly. 4 maybe 5 belts, the two main ones very clear with structures.  Jupiter still appears bright though.

Definitely better in XT8i, but observingtime still needed.

Saturn  only 13°  above the horizon

130p :   Small, yellowish color, good views of the rings, no Cassini, moons (titan?) in averted vision. I could not see surface details on the planet itself.

XT8i  :  Bigger and brighter :  Could clearly make out Cassinidivision and surface structures on the planet (‘marble’ surface). Direct vision of a couple of the moons.

An amazing sight in both scopes, and I`m really pleased to get these views when the planet is so low.

However : Definitely better in XT8i and I observed Saturn at maybe 240-250x

Mars  (date : April 28^th)  :

130p :  At best 150-180x :   peach/orange  colored, after a rather long observingtime some dark structures appeared, planet looked like a slo-mo tennisball in space. No polar caps. Had to observe for a  long time before revealing details. Planet appeared very small of course.

XT8i  At best  300-337x :   peachcolored, very clear structures, could make out syrtis major and lots more, clear view of the north pole and I`ll bet I saw clouds over mount Elysium. I even made a horrible sketch which I never ever would show anybody..Maybe my expectations was set really low, but I was amazed by Mars details using the XT8i this night .

Mars is much much better in Orion XT8i, of course with the advantage of going 300x plus in magnification. It is bigger than through 130p, but still appears rather small.

Summary :

An upgrade from 5” to 8”  for planet observations alone is definitely worth it, but I must stress that you still need observing time to reveal details, even though GRS and shadowtransits was easily spotted in the bigger scope. 

Jupiter still appears quite bright, with the exception of the north and south equatorial belts, but I`m confident the bigger scope revealed much more (structure and belts) after some observing time.

I was also pleased with globular clusters in the 8” scope, but as I stated I haven’t compared the scopes side by side when it comes to DSO`s.

I will keep both scopes, but the 8” is my first choice, while the Heritage is such a  handy grab and go scope and I know I would miss it if I sold it.

Hope this helps a bit and don`t confuse you even more

Regards

Rune

[Pondus]

note : I mean an upgrade from my 130p (fl 650) to Orion XT8i (fl 1200) , is worth it for planetary observations alone.

I have very litte/no experience with refractors so im not talking about aperture or scopes in general.

Rune

[SlyReaper]

Thanks, that's helpful indeed.  From how you describe your 130p, I'm really regretting not spending that extra few quid for the parabolic mirror.  I've never seen the GRS, and the dark albedo features on Mars are so faint I thought I was imagining them when I first glimpsed them.

In the interests of not cheaping out again, would it be worth putting a bit more cash into it and get a 10 incher?  Like, a Skywatcher 250P on an EQ6?  Or an Orion XT10i?  My only worry about huge aperture scopes is they won't get used as often because they'd be unwieldy.  But if I go for an 8 incher, I'll probably want to upgrade again.  Decisions decisions. 

[Pondus]

I bought the Orion XT8i second hand at a very good price, and I could check it out  before paying.

In Norway a Skywatcher 200p dob  cost  £650. Celestron cpc 925 costs £2350 etc, so I just could not let this opportunity pass.

So I basically didnt have the time to sit down an consider 8" vs 10" goto or not  etc.

The 8"  is huge, but I carry the scope up and down stairs in one piece.

At the moment I have no aperture fever at all, but maybe I will get the fever in the autumn when I start the hunt for galaxys and fainter stuff.

I also will never ever try AP, I am a purely visual stargazer, and I handled the 'nudging' surprisingly well.

Rune

[Northern Soul man]

Hi Ya Sly, and a very warm welcome to the SGL Mate.  By the sounds of it your really enjoying your Astronomy - Pondus gave us an excellent insight into,  dare I say it - Aperture fever - I think if your really going to observe long term then buy the largest aperture you can afford.  Jupiter and Saturn will give you a slightly larger image scale through a larger scope - but most important it will give you a brighter image, this will allow higher mag up to a certain point - the atmosphere will soon "tell you" when power has been increased by too much.

Mars is a different story - its quite low down this apparition - so the atmosphere will again guide you, but its small and bright - so will hold higher mags and enhance your already nice views, this time though its only around 15 arc seconds max - so way smaller than the Gas Giants, but as Pondus said - you need to spend time at the planets - GOTO helps here, just centre the planet, sit down, relax and look - just look for lengthy periods of time and as the atmosphere steadies for a brief second - detail begins to show itself and over time you can build a mental picture in real time.

The dobs have a relative small focal length, the planets need the longest focal length you can handle with some Maks going to F15 and the dobs have to be pushed to keep everything central in the FOV - with GOTO you can just centre and forget, let the tracking do its thing.

Long focal lengths mean small FOV - for DSO's the bigger the better and as time goes by we loose the Planets for a while behind the Sun - so then its DSO Time - I have settled on the humble SCT and live under and observe under light polluted skies in the West Midlands - probably the same for you in Bristol - so only the smaller more compact brighter objects are visible, so tend to re - visit the Messiers for my DSO fix, but the majority of the time I've got my sights on the Planets - to a certain extent light pollution doesn't really affect the Planets/Moon.

As said mate depends what you want - I have no transport to dark skies - cause of this I have learned (like most of us on here) to live with the light pollution, not holding me back cause I've spent over 25 years now looking up and totally enjoyed every minute of it, even lugging the scope out to set up isn't a problem for me - I just enjoy the whole experience.

Keep us informed Sly of whatever you decide and look forward to reading your posts Mate.

Regards.  Paul.

[Charic]

I currently own a Skywatcher Explorer 130 (spherical mirror, not the parabolic one).  Thinking of getting the Skywatcher Explorer 200P on an EQ5 mount.  Am I being daft?  5 inches to 8 inches should capture more than twice the light, but I live in a suburban area with some light pollution, so will I actually see that much difference?  The fact that the mirror is parabolic might sharpen some of the images a bit? 

I actually have a fair bit of money to spend at the moment, so would it be worth going for a 10 or 12 inch?  Can you even get telescopes that big on an equatorial mount?  I'd rather not go for a dob just yet because I want to be able to track, and by my understanding, the only way to track with a dob is by using a goto system?  Aside from the cost, I like the organic feel of manually pointing my scope, so I'd rather not use a goto system just yet.

SlyReaper.......Hi, No matter what you buy, you will always wonder if there is something better. The 10" telescope will start to show the coma inherent in a Newtonian, so that  may make your eyepiece choices a little more specific and or much more expensive.

From your OP you need to better understand Push-too , GoTo. You may have just mixed your words a bit?   A Dobsonian is a Push-To/Nudge unless you get a GoTo. This can be operated as I push-To (I believe!) if you have no power? But anything GoTo takes a big effort EVERY-TIME to set-up and align, a Dobsonian is almost place and use, the most simplest set-up

The 8" is fine at f/6, a great telescope. I'm sure someone famous advised many Years ago not to get anything less than 6". Now I feel that may be too low, and the 10" start to cause problems. I'm more than happy with my set-up. The only thing to improve my telescope would actually be a larger aperture, which will give me a larger image scale and more resolution and clarity, but only if the conditions allow, and at the expence of me getting a 12 or 16" to see a major difference, Its not something I'm planning on in the near future. If you could see both the 8" & 10" side by side, that would be beneficial for you. You've got Summer around the corner, so no rush. These telescopes work extremely well as "Light Buckets" from dark sites, so remember that when transporting your 10"+ telescope!

I have a Celestron 127 hidden away, and from my experience,  I personally would never  put an 8" or bigger OTA on anything other than a Dobsonian mount.