First scope for serious beginner

[Dreadz]

Hi all and apologies for a fairly long winded first post.

I'm looking to buy my first proper scope. Have long been interested in astronomy but other than binoculars and essentially toy scopes bought for my young kids I've up til now been unable to purchase a serious telescope but with an impending payout from work on the horizon and my children's growing interest I have the means and justification to invest in a scope that will keep me and my kids going for years without the need for major upgrade.

I want to be able to look at DSO's and the moon & planets and will be looking to try my hand at astrophotography and with that in mind I've been looking at the skywatcher explorer 200 with HEQ5 or the 300 with NEQ6 mount (but obviously not let on to the wife how much I'll be spending!)

I know its a lot to spend but I don't want to buy a 4 or 6 inch scope only to want to upgrade a year down the line. Is there anything else I should be looking at as an alternative?

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[nmoushon]

Either would be good options. But I would suggest maybe the 250PDS on the NEQ6. Reason being is the 300 is a BIG scope. The mount will handle it just fine for both visual and AP. But when you get into to AP there are a lot of other factors besides "will the mount hold my scope". The 300 will catch a lot of wind even if its not very windy out. This will cause movement in the scope that the mount can't compensate for and ruin your images. If its in an observatory then thats different but doesnt sound like you have one....yet  . Also be prepared to shell out a lot more money if you venture down the AP route. You'll need a camer, a guide scope, a guide camera, a laptop to control, coma corretor,ect. The list can go on and on. Not trying to steer you away from AP just want to make sure what you know what you're getting into. Its an addicting and expensive hobby.

[Mowbs]

I haven't seen the 300 but I can only imagine how stunning it is to look at let alone peering through the eyepiece.

It's worth bearing in mind the physical size of taking something like that outside in the evening and then back in when your done, if the clouds suddenly part again you might not want to set up the 300 again where you might with something more manageable.

But don't let me put you off, there's nothing worse than spending a lot of money on something only to wish you'd bought a slightly better one later.

Maybe someone else could give some idea of the difference between a 250 or a 300 or even a 200, I'd be interested to know what the difference is there.

[ronin]

I would first ask how much in the AP line do you expect?

Both the setup's mentioned are good (very good) visual systems, that does not necessarily mean a good AP system. Either of those scopes will move in the slightest breeze - that might be a 10 second puff in a 5 minute exposure, and that exposure is lost.

I know people use an NEQ6 then stick a good 80mm apo on it for imaging.

Another factor is that the bigger you get the less you will want to haul it out and set it up. The HEQ5 is a fair size the NEQ6 is basically big.

[Astro Imp]

All good advice above,

I would ask one question, have you seen these scopes in the flesh? They are BIG especially the 300. I would strongly advise getting yourself to your local astro club or a good shop that specialises in astro gear and see these scopes in the flesh.

Good luck.

[RT65CB-SWL]

Hi Dreadz and welcome to SGL

I think you have made good choice. However being quite bulky OTA's, are you planning on a tripod or pier?

You could consider going for a Dobsonian to start with and then upgrade the mount options later.

The only drawback with a Dobsonian is doing astrophotography. Some SGL members may say "No!", others may say "Yes!". Astrophotography does require a perfectly aligned scope and requires time and patience in setting up if is not going to be permanently mounted.

Anyway don't let me give you any negative thoughts. Visit your local society and see/ask members they are using and attend star parties and see them in action.

There is 'AstroFest' on February 7th & 8th. You can ask and see the scopes their too!

[John]

Some great points made above on the size of these things - really worth seeing them "in the flesh" before deciding. You see a fair number for sale having hardly been used with "didn't realise how big it was going to be" used the the reason for selling.

Also bear in mind that buying the scope and mount can be the cheap bit. Quality eyepieces and imaging accessories can easily consume as much again or even more than the scope purchase !

[Dreadz]

Thanks all for yr help.

I would primarily be using the scope visually but the photography is something I really want to try so was hoping to find one scope that would serve all my intentions plus think my wife would go nuts if I bought 2! There was me thinking if I bought a scope with a decent tracking mount I'd just be able to attach a camera and start snapping! So much to learn!

Anyone have a rough idea of the weight of the scopes in question? Have trawled google looking for them but specs dont seem to list weight on any of the sites ive found.

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[paulastro]

As someone mentioned, for astrophotography you need a mount well capable of taking the telescope, with room to spare.  When you have a shortlist I suggest you try and go to a good astronomy showroom, or a society open evening where scopes are set up so you are well aware of what your candidates are  like in the flesh.  I suspect you wont want to wait that long, but a visit to Astrofest in London in early February may be helpful.  If you do, try and go on the Friday when it's less like a jumble sale!

If you're anywhere near Todmorden in Lancashire I suggest a visit to The Astronomy Centre on a Saturday evening.

[Dreadz]

Am in Swansea so Todmorden is a bit of a trek for me. The local society wepage is showing an event scheduled in the national botanical gardens wales in early February and one in Swansea airport in march. Will see if I can make it to one of those.

I have plenty of time to do my homework, probably wont have the funds available until april or may at earliest but anticipated there was more to choosing a telescope and moreover the RIGHT telescope for my needs than just picking one off a website, so figured I'd start early.

As far as mounts go had kind of narrowed it down to the HEQ5 or NEQ6 and after all yr much appreciated advice am leaning heavily towards the NEQ6

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[nmoushon]

Thanks all for yr help.

I would primarily be using the scope visually but the photography is something I really want to try so was hoping to find one scope that would serve all my intentions plus think my wife would go nuts if I bought 2! There was me thinking if I bought a scope with a decent tracking mount I'd just be able to attach a camera and start snapping! So much to learn!

Anyone have a rough idea of the weight of the scopes in question? Have trawled google looking for them but specs dont seem to list weight on any of the sites ive found.

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There's always more too it than what you think. I've been into AP for over 2 years now and I still constantly finding this true.

If you are serious about getting into AP go pick up the book "Making Every Photon Count'. It will explain everything there is to know about getting started in AP. It doesn't cover everything in the detail needed for the experts but for beginners its a god send.

I can't stress enough that AP is addicting and expensive and doesnt stop at the scope and mount. My set up in my sig, for example, it what is the most common setup to start with. The HEQ5, 80mm APO refractor, DSLR, Finderguider + guide cam. You can't really get much cheaper than that and hope to produce good quality images. "Good quality" is of course relavent to the user. But the addictive part is wanting to buy upgrades to make your "good quality" now "great quality" then "spectacular quality" and so on. I just moved from my dslr to ccd and my USED ccd camera in my sig cost almost 3x what my 80mm APO cost used. Again I'm not trying to persuade you out of AP but trying to warn you before you jump in. Its a TON of fun, AP that is, but it takes a lot of money, time, patients and more patients to get it right. I'm still working on getting it right 2 years later.

The book above will help clarify things to you better and help get you to understand what AP really requires.

I know you said that maybe 2 scope will be hard to get past the wife but maybe not so much as you would think. If you were to buy a small used dob (goto is an option and great for kids but is a bit more money) like a 6" and then buy a used HEQ5 with a 80mm APO with a dslr I bet you'd be surpised my the price. With that setup for AP you would not "need" guiding to get good images. I was able to get 2min subs unguided with my set up. If you get the 200,250 or 300 you WILL NEED guiding to be able to take more than a 1min eposure before trailing occurs. Just a suggestion.

[Astro Imp]

BTW if you are even considering doing AP have a look at Make Every Photon Count, comes highly recommended by imagers on this site:- http://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

[LouisJB]

If you want the best visual and best imaging setup, you probably want at least two scopes.

I think a 300 is going to be too large in any format other than Dob and certainly too large and unwieldy for any mount where imaging would be involved.

Depending on your enthusiasm for carrying heavy stuff and struggling to balance and setup, I'd suggest go up to 200mm on the EQ mount and if you want a 250/300 get a dob.

If you want to image wide-field you'll want a different type of OTA, something more like the ED80, and maybe guiding as a consideration (depends what you want to image etc).

It's worth noting for imaging the only things that matter are the speed (F-no) and focal length, so aperture per se is irrelevant (although it is related to the two important variables).

For visual aperture really matters, but tubes get massively bigger and heavier as you go up in objective size. A 300mm is going to be a beast compared to a 200. Hence the comment of a dob base for a large aperture scope.

I'd personally not want to lift and setup much more than a 200 on any EQ, although I was spoilt before having got used the the 130 and how it was a breeze to get up and running with by comparison.

Good luck in your quest!

[edited to put back formatting strangely lost on submitting]

[Dreadz]

Does anyone have any experience of the 250PDS? Have found what looks to be a mint condition used scope but its paired with the EQ5 mount and everything I have been able to find online tells me that the 250 OTA is too heavy for the EQ5 mount.

Help please as its so tempting at the price and would mean I could be looking at the skies through a decent scope a lot sooner than summer.

Thanks

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[umadog]

A 12" equatorially mounted Newtonian is going to be a bad starter scope for AP and heavy and awkward for visual. I would suggest a 10" Dob, since you say you want primarily visual. That is not a "beginner" or "starter" scope. It's a proper "lifetime" scope. The views are pretty much identical through a 10" and 12" and the 10" is easier to deal with. You can start AP with just a dSLR and a lens. Then try mounting the dSLR on an EQ mount. Eventually you can add a short-focus 'frac. If you're a beginner and you don't know what the gear is capable of or what you'll really use, then don't buy the biggest thing you can afford and expect to use it fro AP and visual. That's unrealistic and it won't work the way you expect or do what you want.

[Dreadz]

As I originally said, I want to buy a scope that will keep me going for years. I'm not in a position to be able to justify spending several hundred pounds now only to then need to spend a thousand or more in a year or two to upgrade. I know a 10 inch newtonian wouldn't be an ideal starter scope but I can only really justify buying a scope that will keep me going for many years.

I have already resigned myself to the fact that am not going to find one scope that does everything exceptionally well so serious AP will be a project for the future.

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[nmoushon]

10" is a lot of aperture and you will have several several years worth of view from it. 10" will allow you to go very deep and see a TON of DSOs. Literally thousands. Then if you take it to a dark site that number only goes up. For imaging its not the best only because the learn curve will be much greater. You will also have to potentially deal with problems that other setups wouldn't. But the main reason people are suggesting the 10" over the 12" is because of its size. This is in regards to both visual and imaging.

For visual this poses a problem because of several things: The weight of it on anothing but a HEQ5/NEQ6 will pose troubles for the mount. You will get wobbly views as the mount struggles. The height of it will pose some okward viewing angles and maybe require a step ladder. Especially for kids. The size will also act as a sail and even the slightest wind will cause it to wobble and views will be blurry.

For imaging the 12" is just too massive of a scope to start with. Unless you have a TON of patients and time to spend on the massive learning curve and dealing with all the potential problems is more than like to put you off astronomy and imaging all together and make you feel like you've wasted money. The 10", IMHO, is better but not by much. Its still going to be a very large learning curve. I'm really not trying to put you off imaging but I've seen a lot of people try to jump too far into AP and then end up hating it because of all the complications that come with the territory. AP requires a LOT. Its not as simple as putting a camera on the scope thats on a mount that tracks.

[umadog]

As I originally said, I want to buy a scope that will keep me going for years. I'm not in a position to be able to justify spending several hundred pounds now only to then need to spend a thousand or more in a year or two to upgrade. I know a 10 inch newtonian wouldn't be an ideal starter scope but I can only really justify buying a scope that will keep me going for many years.

I have already resigned myself to the fact that am not going to find one scope that does everything exceptionally well so serious AP will be a project for the future.

Yes, I read what you said. Bear with me A 10" Dobsonian will keep you going for years. It's an ideal starter and long-term scope. I've been at this hobby for years and I've an 8" or 10" scope that whole time. There are plenty of targets for which this aperture is ideal (bigger isn't always better). The issue won't be the aperture, the issue will be getting it to skies good enough to use the aperture.

A 10" or 12" visual Newtonian is going to make a poor beginner AP scope, however. If you buy it for this purpose you may well feel the need to switch to something else soon because it likely won't do what you want it to do. Why? Because the focal length will be fairly long so you won't be able to photograph lower power fields, you'll need to be more accurate with your alignment and tracking (so harder to learn with it), you'll need a heavy (expensive) mount to get stable shots, the secondary will be too small to fully illuminate the field of most chips so you're in a position of either taking sub-par shots or increasing the secondary size and losing visual contrast.

I think what I'm suggesting is the route by which you'll spend less money and be less likely to enter a "sell and upgrade" cycle. Of course, it's you're money

[Moonshane]

how old are your children? a large newt on an eq mount even for visual will put the eyepiece often above 6 feet in the air. I agree with the dobsonian being the best option for visual observing. based on what you say either an 8" or 10" scope would be a good long term investment. buying used would reduce the impact as it will cost less and you will lose next to nothing if you ever do want to sell and upgrade.

consider that the average 10" dob will put the eyepiece height at about 4 feet max and an average 12" dob at just over 5 feet max. if your children are quite young then not reaching the eyepiece will get very boring very quickly.

[swamp thing]

Hi

First off unless you have an observatory best forget about the 12" EQ mounted scope because quite frankly that's a non starter. It's too big, too heavy, and totally unrealistic as an everyday scope.

A 10" EQ mounted scope is a huge commitment as an everyday scope too. I know I had one once, without an obsy these are hard work.

TBH as an everyday EQ mounted scope that is not going in an observatory I would go no larger than 8"

Let me be honest here EQ mounts and big newtonian scopes are a nightmare visually. They make the whole observing experience a constant fight between yourself and your equipment. As said, been there done that, won't be doing it again. If your heart is set on this please try and just spend a night using one first, the constant tube twisting and contortions to reach the eyepiece is very hard work.

I understand what you are saying about this will be your one scope, but a big newt on an EQ mounting is hard work buddy and unless you are fully committed the novelty will wear off very fast indeed.

Bear in mind that I'm saying this having not only owned one but presently own a 20" Dob and I wouldn't swap the set up of that for a 10" EQ mounted scope. The Dob is way easier and far less stressful.

Have a look at kit lists in signatures on here you'll see very few with large newts on EQ mounts that aren't in observatories. Portability just isn't happening with these leviathans.

Personally I'd keep AP and visual separate. An APO frac on a huge heavy mount for AP and a Dob for visual, IMO happy days all round.

Good luck with your choice

[Dreadz]

Thank you all. Please don't think I'm not taking on board the advice you have all given. I was somewhat caught by what initially seemed to be too good a bargain to turn down. Having stopped, read all the advice given by you all (all of which is far better informed than my limited research allows) I have instead shifted to looking for a large aperture dob. It does make far more sense. I can learn to properly navigate the skies with it and it would be far more user friendly for both myself and the kids.

The AP was an aspiration but it will have to wait until funds allow and my experience has grown.

With that in mind, how much of a difference is there between the 8 & 10 inch skyliner dobs. Was hovering over the buy button last night but just couldn't decide. Could possibly stretch financially to the 10inch now but would have to wait til next payday to purchase additional EP's or would I be better off buying the 8inch and some EP's at the same time?

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[TractionMan]

When or if you get a big dob, do try the stock EP's for a while to get a feel for what you want or need. If you rush into purchases, you might end up with stuff you don't like or need. SGL is great to find help and opinions, but at the end of the day, you're the one who's got to make the final decision(s).

[umadog]

With that in mind, how much of a difference is there between the 8 & 10 inch skyliner dobs. Was hovering over the buy button last night but just couldn't decide. Could possibly stretch financially to the 10inch now but would have to wait til next payday to purchase additional EP's or would I be better off buying the 8inch and some EP's at the same time?

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The differences are there but they're not vast. The rule of thumb is that you'll get the impression that things are significantly brighter if you double the mirror's area. So that means going from 8" to 12", for instance (12^2/8^2=2.25). Going from 8" to 10" is less of a difference, obviously. Let's put it this way: if you bought an 8" then looked through your mate's 10", you wouldn't get a strong urge to upgrade. There's another thing to consider too, particularly for a beginner: most 8" Dobs are f/6, whereas most 10" are f/4.7. Now that will make a significant difference. The 10" is a rather fast focal ratio and it will have visible coma (blurry stars at the edges, basically) around the edges of the lower power fields. The quantity of coma increases with the inverse square (IIRC) of the focal ratio, so f/6 is pretty coma-free but f/4.7 really isn't. A faster focal ratio scope is also tough on eyepieces: if you use an eyepiece not designed for faster scopes on an f/4.7 then it'll show astigmatism around the edges which adds to the blur. TBH, most people can ignore the coma at lower powered f/4.7 fields but the astigmatism can be really bad. At least that can be fixed by sending back the eyepieces that don't work. Also collimation: the envelope is tighter at f/4.7 and if you stray from it the views deteriorate. f/6 is easier because you don't have to be as accurate.

In summary, a 10" is a great scope but you need to go into it knowing that the difference between it and the 8" isn't purely the extra 60% light gain. Either is a great scope and will last you years. The quality of the views will depend far more on the darkness of your skies. An 8" somewhere dark will produce far better views than a >16" stuck in suburbia.

[John]

Umadog makes some excellent points regarding the 10" F/4.7 dobs above. I wish the chinese would make F/5.3 ones for us. 

[lonebod]

Hi mate. I'm in the same position as you about buying a new scope. I'm just waiting on getting the funds in the bank, but after months of reading and asking questions, and having a try of a few scopes, I'm going for the skyliner 200p.

My daughter just comming up fir 6 and I want her to be able use it too. One of my mates has 2 daughters aged 4 and 7 and they can use this scope themselves.

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