Astrophysics, physics and maths

[Bungielad]

Please excuse me if I am way out of my league here and get a few things wrong but, I am so interested in astrophysics that I want to learn as much about it as possible.

I left school with no qualifications what so ever and now at the age of 42 and being interested in Astronomy on and off for the last 15 years feel that I want to get right into it.

I have had my scope for only 5 months and though I have only seen Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, M13 and M57 it astounds me....I say " only" due to other people observing more!

When I was a child and also in my teens I would never look at something such as a tree and think....it's a tree, I would and still do think..... "well what makes that tree be a tree"

As far as my physics / Astrophysics goes.... it's all been reading books and watching science tv shows but I have a good general knowledge I think even if a few things are a bit out?

I understand that the formation of a star is founded by gas clouds full of hydrogen bound together by gravity is forced down so much that hydrogen molecules smash together to form helium and within this process energy.....light is formed!

I understand that an atom compound is.... atoms with electrons flying around the atoms nucleus, each atom has a different amount of electrons flying around it and when a different element hits another then a different amount of electrons will occur to make a different substance.

Within an atom is the proton and when smashed together can produce an abundance of quantum elements......mouns, protons, nouns, quarks.

within a quark comes.....neutrinos and lets go as far as string thoery......

My question is........obviously my knowledge is limited on physics but as I said I really want to understand more but as I'm told over and over again, maths is the way to understanding physics!

I am not good at maths what so ever but can understand the functions of molecules, atoms and particles.

I have recently applied for an "A" level course in maths and an "A" level course in physics but I'm thinking "I'm not going to pass the math but will pass the physics........is that possible?

Bungielad.

[Guest]

"If you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right!" - Henry Ford

If you work hard, and allow people to help, and ask for help from those that can, then you will pass your Maths exam. There are books that talk about quantum theory without dwelling on Maths - have a look for "The Cosmic Onion" by Frank Close

[Qualia]

I'm very much in a similar boat as you, Bungielad. Left school at 15 - with no qualifications - and apart from self-teaching haven't really ever entered a formal education setting.

Nevertheless, I've always tried to study something each year be it another language, a given author, school of thought, what have you. And so I sympathise with the dilemma on how one should go about their studying.

My advice would be to go slow. There's no rush. Second, here are some tips:

Reading and Notes

1. Read the given material.

2. Go over the text again, paragraph by paragraph, summing them into note form. Number your own paragraphs. Note the text page from where they were lifted. Extract snappy quotes and note the text page where they came from.

3. Now close the book and distill your notes into a coherent running order. I'll call this running order The Argument.

4. Make sure you're kind and attentive to the given author. Try to use your own words, but don't go putting words or ideas into his/her mouth.

5: If there is vocabulary or phrases that throw you, check them out, but don't fret if you don’t understand everything.

7: Title those arguments you have in note form with directional headings. Make sure you still have the original text page number where they came from for later reference.

8: Read them over and make sure they make real good sense to you.

N.B: Although in a different form, this framing and making of arguments is equally suiting to math and logic.

Writing Time

With this promising list of Arguments and some counter-arguments, you now have a whole load of arguments laid down which will serve for whatever is thrown at you. Only when you have your list of arguments should you read the set essay question given and then simply extract the relevant arguments pertaining to the question. If you're working on your own, make up a question, deal with something that has intrigued you and fire away. If you feel something is missing, go back to your original notes (stage 2) and if the worst comes to the worst, back to the original text book.

Then you need to weave those arguments and counter-arguments into an essay.

When writing your essay make sure that you give extremely clear directions of the set problem (question) given and your own conclusions in the introduction and make sure that your introduction is very short and very snappy. Enjoy the big entry: the problem is x, y, z, and the essay will conclude p and q.

Weave in author argument, then other source counter-argument and potential author counter-argument to that one. Make sure you offer the illusion of progress, that your essay really is working towards your conclusion. When you come to the conclusion, it ought to be just a mere elaboration of your short and snappy introduction. Don't fret about under writing but worry if you're going on and on. It probably means you're waffling or talking about irrelevant stuff, worse, that you haven't yet digested the ideas.

Whatever the event, go over your essay with a pair of scissors and chop out the Rubbish. Like Chekov, rubbish in my eyes is the over use of adjectives (take note Brian Cox), conjunctions, prepositions and adverbs.

Exam Time

Exam time is a doddle. You can forget those fretting freaks and folder clutching students, because you're simply harmed with relatively short lists of arguments for each author, text book, and theme that you've studied and taken over the year. And that, after all, is all that counts.

About 6 weeks before the final exam, you need to get hold of some past exam papers and see what is being thrown at you. Buy the last 3 or 4 years to get a running average of the set questions. You really need to do this and you need to sit down and practice writing them. Seriously. Exams are much more about technique than knowledge.

Now, imagine that in the exam you have to select 3 questions from 9 and have 3 hours to answer those 3 in the exam. Well, at home, pick one, give yourself 10 minutes to plan it and write it in 45 minutes (not an hour!), leave it and then go back to it a few days later to see how you did. Recall, you will mark more severely than the examiner. Do a question exam in exam conditions every day, that is, the 9 questions mutiplied by the last 3 years of past exams papers - 27 days.

The 10 minute planning of each exam question is extremely important. It gets the brain in the mood, you scribble what may be needed, it also means in the actual exam that the examiner can see what was 'originally' going on and even if your response has failed, you will probably still be upgraded. Your plan has demonstrated a calm and reasoned response to a situation of relative stress.

Unless times have changed, write your mock exam responses by hand. Train yourself. You'll be quite amazed how messed up and painful the untrained arm can be after just three hours of continuous writing in real exam conditions.

If you're not doing exams, then write up what you're learning and send it in to this forum. You never know who may appreciate what you have done.

A few days before the exam, go over your arguments and walk into that exam filled with bliss and confidence. Write your exam questions with passion and offer the examiner something exquisite to fill his/her day.

The Moon and Joints and Learning

To forget self, to numb self, is no bad thing. But generally speaking drugs are rubbish on the intellectual capacity of the mind. They'll make you slack and sloppy. Cut down on alcohol as well. It makes you smelly and fat. Saying that, use your common sense; paradise is also a fine smoke or home made mojito.

Watch the stars, the moon, smile at the strangers you meet. Read everything, literature, art books, philosophies. Listen to all the music you can. It comes from another place that words and images cannot fill. Try to make real love everyday of your life.

Keep your eyes open and don't spill a drop.

The Khan Academy is free and is just about all you need to get learning.

[baggywrinkle]

I had to pass a technical apprenticeship (heavy electrical and mechanics )in the Royal Navy. I only squeaked into the RN on their entrance exam as I failed at maths 'O' level. Lots of maths, electrical theory, mechanics, hydraulics, pnuematics....in the 4 year apprenticeship.

I took the 'O'level much later when I was applying for a commission.

I was selected for the submarine nuclear power program, this was in two parts separated by time at sea initially watchkeeping and maintaining generation systems and auxilliaries and then later I became a reactor operator and also maintained the reactor instrumentation systems.

The two nuclear courses were maths heavy, lots of nuclear physics and reactor physics, water chemistry and so on. No failures were allowed and the pass mark was generally 80% or more for a pass. It was one of the toughest courses in the RN.

I passed. What I found that if the instructor cleary explained what was going on behind the formula in an emperical way I could then understand the formula and maths involved.

Even today I would struggle with pure trigonometry or algebra etc as I cannot see what it is doing.

But with physics and chemistry if I can picture the process then it becomes clearer. Still not easy.

Even today when I am instructing in moisture measurement theory I avoid the physics and use lots of diagrams to explain the processes.

I also used that method to teach other junior rates what was happening in the reactor and its systems as they had to qualify for watchkeeping in the various engineering spaces.

So my advice is to try and visualize the process and then see what the formula does.

Good luck and never give in.

[baggywrinkle]

BTW, get hold of a copy of John Gribben's book 'The Universe; A biography' by Penguin.

It is one of the clearest non formula books I have found on physics and cosmology. Some great explanantions which allow you make your own visualisation of the processes.

[ronin]

Yes you need maths and no you don't.

You have learnt that fusion is basically 4H -> He + Energy, not quite that simple but lets stick to that.

That is enough to have an idea of what is going on but to know exactly what is going on how much energy is produced and when in the process is it produced, you need the maths. If I recall the energy is produced at 2 points in the reaction not one. The fusion process is if I recall a 3 step process, the overall result is an output of energy, however you have to put some in to get more out.

Originally someone most likely put up the idea that 4H -> He, but until they or someone else came along with the maths to prove it could occur it was just a theory (or idea).

The maths is essential to prove the theory/idea.

Maths may not be used to prove something, it can be used to disprove it. The good old Higgs partical or whatever is an example. When it started out about 30-40 years ago there were something like 30 theories, all "feasible" in some way. Over time one after the other has been disproved usually mathematically as that is the absolute method, finally the one left standing is Higgs theorum.

Now that does not mean he is correct, but it has not yet been disproved, and the others have.

[TwoPi]

Hi Bungielad, I'll start my post by saying that my maths & physics A-levels were over 20 years ago now, so things may have changed 'since I were a lad'!

I've just had a flick through my old A-level physics text book (Nelkon & Parker Advanced Level Physics in case anyone's interested!) and it seems to confirm my recollection that *most* (but not all) of the maths in there is more GCSE/O-level maths rather than the stuff you'll be doing in A-level maths. So you will be doing plenty of algebra and trig etc., but only a little calculus and the like (which you will do in your A-level maths).

The 'hard' maths tends to comes in if you go on to do a physics degree (I had to do a year of separate maths courses alongside the first year of my degree).

So in summary, I would say you don't have to be a mathematical genius to pass A-level physics, but I'd say to get an 'A' you probably need to have a firm grasp of the mathematical basics.

One other point, again things may have changed but I only came across relativity, quantum theory and the like when I did my degree so if you touch on them at all in the A-level, it's unlikely to be particularly rigorous - these areas are swamped in maths! On that topic, you'll cover very little astrophysics in a physics A-level, but you will learn a lot about things that are then used in various areas of astrophysics & astronomy... mechanics, thermodynamics, optics, electro-magnetism, atomic physics etc.

Please don't let any of my comments put you off, it's a great subject and I loved studying it, but you should definitely check out the syllabus if you haven't already and check it meets your expectations of what you're hoping to cover.

It's all good stuff though, so I really hope you do go for it!

[Liquid360]

I, like you, wasn't a star student and math was always just out of reach of my limited skill set. I'm also your age. Like you I've recently caught the bug and a passionate desire to understand, not memorize, nature. From black holes to the quantum world... why does the center of a galaxy and it's super massive black hole look exactly like an atom? All explanations for such things are expressed in mathematical form, a language whose comprehension escapes me. However, with forums like this one and with the net as a tool, something we didn't have, I believe that people like us with a passion to learn can in fact do so! I posted the following in another thread but I feel it's applicable here. It's something in my youth I lacked the foresight to do.

Without a practical application I have an exceedingly difficult time truly understanding basic concepts. In an effort to better understand the basics of a "fast" vs "slow" scope and better understand how focal length effects imaging, I comprised a most basic experiment. Using a lens, magnifying glass, and a light bulb, focusing the light to a point, then moving the light bulb across a radius curve to see how focal length effected the pinpoint of focused light. Then varying the distances from bulb to lens. Then altering the speed of the bulbs' motion. Just playing around with this till it all made sense to me. Only now can I understand how all of this works within my scope. Without my tiny, lame experiment, I'd NEVER have TRULY understood any of this. With this basic knowledge through extrapolation I can better understand more complex applications. I learned this in school and could regurgitate it to pass a test.... but I never REALLY learned it. Only now and only with a reason to could I learn it.

I believe such things simply weren't on my radar in school. For me school was about passing the next test and remembering facts for simple regurgitation. It never occurred to me, and I'm not sure if I'd know what to do if it had, to actually comprehend the subjects. I was only interested in girls and moving onward.

Congrats for trying to go back in order to move forward!!! I think it's terrific!!!

- Nate

Birmingham, AL

[Ouroboros]

Bungielad - every good luck to you with that. I think with application you most certainly can succeed in both subjects. I'm guessing, but the maths will probably be harder for you than the physics. In fact I'm a little surprised you have decided to start with A level rather than say GCSE. But maybe you've received advice from the college and the A level is appropriate. You do have the great advantage of being both older, and thereby more experienced, and well motivated.

I think you'll be fine as long as you're up for putting in quite a lot of work in parallel with the course work to bring yourself up to speed.

The great thing today is that the Internet has so many resources for explaining tricky subjects. There are some really good maths websites for example. Don't hesitate to go back to basics on a topic too and build up.

I'm sure people here will be only too happy to help out explaining stuff. You only have to ask. :-)

[Ronnie67]

Type in coursea if that's correct, they have loads of free courses on many subject, I have completed two in astronomy, doing calculus now, but missed out on a couple of weeks, but there free and if you fail the first time round you can retake it again, there really good, just give it a try, and if its the wrong name pm me and I will check up on it

[Bungielad]

Great advice and support! Cheers everyone, much appreciated.

Bungielad

[Spec-Chum]

Hi buddy, I'm in pretty much the same posirion other then I've done calculus and vectors etc but many years ago.

Ive just bought this for my kindle and it seems really good, especially the maths primer.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B008JRJ1VK

Maybe we can help each other

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Moonshane]

funnily enough, although I have got an A grade maths O level that was 30 years ago. I also want to try to understand physics a little more and feel I need maths. someone at a party last night (how geeky discussing things like physics, big bang, religion, and philosophy at a party but hey.....) suggested Stroud's Engineering Mathematics as much of the engineering problems relate to physics and vice versa. you can get an older copy for a few quid on amazon.

[Crebles]

Type in coursea if that's correct, they have loads of free courses on many subject, I have completed two in astronomy, doing calculus now, but missed out on a couple of weeks, but there free and if you fail the first time round you can retake it again, there really good, just give it a try, and if its the wrong name pm me and I will check up on it

Thanks Ronnie67 - after reading your post here I've just had a surf to the Coursera site - FANTASTIC!!!!  Free online courses in astronomy and cosmology. I've just signed up for two!  Thanks so much for the pointer.   

[Bungielad]

I received my copy of..."A most incomprehensible thing" today and was very happy with the reading untill about page 10-11 when I realized that I was STILL completely out of my depth with the math........yes I know.......it's supposed to be a gentle approach but, I still could not grasp it!

Luckily at the same time as I purchased this book I also ordered a copy of " Algebra for dummies" which also turned up today, I'm thinkin I should start here first.

Never realised how terrible at maths I was.......oh well, got to start somewhere!

Bungielad.

[laowho]

I'm in the same boat as you Bungie, but there's precedent. When Feynman was being booed off the stage of the annual physics conference while trying to explain his Nobel-winning quantum electrodynamics (most successful theory ever derived) using his (now ubiquitous) squiggly diagrams, it was a mathematician in the back of the room who told him that evening, "I think I can help." The following day he fared much better and the rest is history. Leonard Susskind is (admittedly) no math wiz either--in the 1st edition of his Black Hole War he tells how many ways there are to put on a shirt and calculates that 4x3x2=12. Of course he isn't that bad, but he admits that math is his weakest link. Or look at Stephen Hawking, who, because of his physical limitations, must conceptualize everything and then recruit the maths accordingly, often relying upon grad students to work these out. In other words, and at least for theoretical physicists, conceptualization is paramount, not maths. I'd say follow your bliss and fill your own niche in science according to your particular strengths. Maybe even consider being a science writer.

[laowho]

P.s.

Others have mentioned some resources, and the internet (via youtube) abounds. For instance, when I last checked M.I.T. was offering over 8,000 lectures online, available to everyone and covering every subject they offer there on campus. Berkeley, SLAC (Stanford Linear Accelerator), and Gresham College (Ian Morrison?), to name only a few others, offer astronomy and physics lectures online too. I'm currently wrapping up a complete astronomy series by Leonard Susskind from Stanford, and Ian Morrison's from Gresham are wonderful (he recently retired). And don't forget to check out the Richard Feynman stickie that Feynman has put together here at SGL.

Cheers

[Spec-Chum]

Also check out khan academy. He literally does start from 1+1 all the way to things like differential equations, including a heap of physics.

Highly recommended.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[stevepeverall]

Hi Bungielad

Just come across this thread and it's struck a chord with me too.

I've worked in chemistry all of my life and am fairly numerate but my maths education didn't proceed past O-level which I've always considered a weakness.

I bought a book called Mathematics for the Nonmathematician last week and have it on my bookshelf now and hope to get around to reading it before Christmas.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mathematics-Non-mathematician-Dover-explaining-science/dp/0486248232/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1383509374&sr=1-1&keywords=mathematics+for+non+mathematicians

Just flicking through the 600 pages there are some maths formulae with diagrams but it doesn't seem too complex.

There are some mouthwatering chapter titles including:

Charting the earth and heavens

The revolution in astronomy

The mathematical order of nature

Mathematics and painting in the Renaissance

as well as chapters on algebra, calculus, trigonometry, probabilities and the like

Check out the link, its got a couple of good reviews and a bargain at under a tenner.

[Bungielad]

Looks like a good read that Steve, it will be another to add to the collection,

By the time iv finished reading all these books I should be a professor.......lol, .....I wish!!

Bungielad.

[Ronnie67]

I have a great number of books on astronomy in pdf format if anyone wishes a copy let me know, cannot write what I have, there are about 600 book or even a more, send me a message with the book title and I will see if I have it

[dhodg]

I have a great number of books on astronomy in pdf format if anyone wishes a copy let me know, cannot write what I have, there are about 600 book or even a more, send me a message with the book title and I will see if I have it

WOW Ronnie!

That is awesome!  Is there any you could recommend/send for/to a newbie?

[Ronnie67]

To be honest with you, I have not read them as I am head in with courses which I signed up for free, but I have a great abundance of them, I will check out what I have and get back in touch, you are more than happy to have a copy of any which are of interest

[RobertI]

Hi Bugielad,

I studied Maths and Physics  at A Level (30 years ago now) - I was good and Physics and mediocre to poor at Maths. I felt confident with Physics partly because it was practical and partly because it was based on some very simple basic principles such as Force = Pressure / Area which related to real life - I knew that if I remembered those basic principles I would be ok. However maths I struggled with as there was too much theory and too much memory work.

But the point is I got a good result in Physics despite my struggling with Maths. So it is definitely possible and you should definitely continue.

The result of this was that I managed to get to University and study.......Astrophysics!!!!

Hope this helped and good luck with your studies.

[Ronnie67]

I can give you a mere fraction of the books I have.

1.  Celestrial Mechanics

2.  Encyclopedia of Astronomy and Astrophisics

3.  Foundation of Modern Cosmology

4.  General Relativity and Cosmology for Undergraduates

5.  Idiots guide of Astronomy 2ed and 4ed

6.  Introduction to General Relativity and Cosmology

7.  Irwin - Astrophysics - Decoding the Cosmos

8.  Introduction to Modern Cosmology 2ed

9.  Understanding the Universe - From Quarks to the Cosmos

10.  Astrophysics 2ed

11.  Theory, Experiment and Cosmology (2006) 

12.  The invisible Universe.  Dark Matter and Dark Energy

13.  THe New Cosmic Onion - Quarks and the Nature of the Universe 2007

Like I said I have literally hundreds of books, if you would like a copy in PDF format pm me and I will see what I can do, also if there is a book you have your eye on, just pop the title here and I will check out my directory