Users thoughts on Atik 314L+?

[Astroblagger]

As stated above, have been pondering buying one of these, if people have used the camera how do they find it? Looking to step up from the dslr. Any help or experience or thoughts with the camera appreciated.

[Sp@ce_d]

The only downside is once you've tried it you'll want another! I use a "dual shooter" rigg with the 1000D & the 314L+. What a lovely camera it is.. you wont need to worry about darks. The only regret I have is not getting one sooner.

[Sp@ce_d]

Of course you'll have to take into account (if it's the mono you're talking about) the extra time taken with filters but the sensitivity is sooo much better.. The one thing that I've realised since having mine is taking more time with planning & research for the target, so you don't waste valuable limited clear skies. Ie. which filters are best etc. as I've never got enough data in one night... even if it's clear all night... as opposed to the OSC DSLR. (To this end I think a dual shooter setup is the way to go)

[swag72]

Utterly brilliant little camera. The fov can be a bit of a shock when compared to a DSLR as the chip is so small, but as long as you have looked into that and don't expect APS sized images, you'll be fine! It doesn't need darks and will rattle away all night - A really excellent CCD

[Astroblagger]

Thanks for the info, I'm aware of the drawbacks of LRGB imaging, can they be used with a camera lens? If you would want a larger field of view?

[swag72]

Yes they can - Geoptik do an adaptor for the Atik to connect to a Canon lens ................ But ........... there is not enough back spacing for a filter wheel and so that is rather limiting in my book. You'd need to screw filters in and out of the camera nosepiece.

[AndyUK]

Utterly brilliant little camera. The fov can be a bit of a shock when compared to a DSLR as the chip is so small, but as long as you have looked into that and don't expect APS sized images, you'll be fine! It doesn't need darks and will rattle away all night - A really excellent CCD

+1 to this - I've had mine (Mono) for about 18 months - It's a superb camera and extremely sensitive, not only compared to a DSLR but also some other CCD's.

As Sara's said though, with it being such a small chip it will REALLY get you in close, which with some of the bigger DSO's can lead you into mosaics... but as you have a Megrez 72, that should help for the wider ones. I'd suggest you set your scopes, and the 314L+ chip, up in CCDCalc and then have a look at the FoV you'll get before pressing the trigger because the FoV is VERY different from an APS-C DSLR or 8300 chip.

[Gina]

I find it wonderful - absolutely superb, particularly after a DSLR. Much more sensitive, free from dark noise to the extent that darks aren't necessary - at least up to 20m subs which is as far as I've gone so far. No dust bunnies within the camera and being careful about cleanliness, no dust bunnies at all. This means I don't need flats either. Of course, the sensor is a lot smaller than a DSLR being 1392 x 1040 with 6.45 µM pixels - so 8.9mm x 6.7mm whereas a DSLR is around 25 × 16 mm. I have the mono version.

[Gina]

I bought the Atik EFW2 filter wheel as well - also absolutely superb - and use with camera lenses, so far only with 200mm f4 telephoto due to lack of good imaging weather. I use the old second hand Pentax/Praktica threaded mount lenses which are excellent quality but can be bought relatively cheaply on ebay. To connect lenses to filter wheel I use what's called a "russian adapter" to convert the M42x1mm lens thread to T2 and an Atik adapter from t2 to M54 for the filter wheel. I have written up how I use the 314L+ EFW2 and camera lenses and how I've mounted them in a thread in "DIY - Astronomer" forum :- http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/174206-wide-field-mounting-for-atik-314l-with-camera-lens/

I too wish I'd gone over to the 314L+ before though I do use the DSLR as a big sensor OSC camera. That may change when I get really into using the CCD with lenses.

[Astroblagger]

ok thanks for the info, thats a bummer you cant use a filter wheel with canon lenses. What would my amp/hour draw be from this cam? as i set up remotely every time on a battery.

[Gina]

But ........... there is not enough back spacing for a filter wheel and so that is rather limiting in my book. You'd need to screw filters in and out of the camera nosepiece.

ok thanks for the info, thats a bummer you cant use a filter wheel with canon lenses.

You can't use the Geoptik adapter but it can be done. I have camera lenses working with filter wheel and 314L+ as mentioned in my post above. Two adapters to screw lenses to filter wheel then I'm using a guide scope ring to mount the assembly. Full details in my "DIY - Astronomer" thread in the link above.

[Astroblagger]

would it be 1-2A/h?

[Gina]

Power: 12v DC 0.55A

[Astroblagger]

What would be the OSC CCD alternative to the Atik 314L+? And how would a OSC CCD compare sensitvitywise compare to a DSLR?, im undecided whether to go for OSC or Mono as i travel to my dark sky site and set up/down every time, so not sure i would have the clear sky time for mono? Undecided really.

[AndyUK]

There is an OSC version available of the 314L+ if you wanted to go down that route, but of course it would rule out narrowband imaging, if that was in your plans?

I'm afraid I can't answer your query about CCD OSC vs DSLR sensitivity, but I can say that I use my mono 314L+ on a rig I have to set up / pack away each time and for me it's really no bother attaching the filterwheel, attaching it to the scope and rotating the filter into place. Admittedly, if / when you switch filter during the session, you do then need to refocus (well, I do - I don't trust the phrase "parfocal filters"!) and you also need to take a set of flats for each filter you use, but once you know what exposures you need for the flats with each filter with each OTA, then again, that's no real great effort and not very time consuming (especially compared to the time having to take darks with a DSLR?)

Processing is obviously different though...

[swag72]

The colour alternative to the 314L+ would be a 314L+ OSC - They do them in mono and OSC. The mono is by far more sensitive and if you want to do narrowband imaging then it really is streets ahead of the OSC. But there are those using OSC to good effect. I used one and didn't like it - Perhaps have a look on the imaging section at peoples images with a OSC. If you do a search, there was a long thread maybe last month discussing the difference - Will be worth a look.

[ollypenrice]

Of course you'll have to take into account (if it's the mono you're talking about) the extra time taken with filters but the sensitivity is sooo much better.. The one thing that I've realised since having mine is taking more time with planning & research for the target, so you don't waste valuable limited clear skies. Ie. which filters are best etc. as I've never got enough data in one night... even if it's clear all night... as opposed to the OSC DSLR. (To this end I think a dual shooter setup is the way to go)

It really isn't slower with mono and filters, it's faster, and much, much faster than with a DSLR. That's for an equivalent signal to noise ratio. I've done back to back OSC versus mono shoot outs and, depending on the target and the cameras, mono is somewhere between a little faster and a lot faster for the same chip. The Atik 4000 mono is only a little faster than the 4000 colour but the 8300 chip really is crippled by the Bayer matrix. If the target is Ha dominated then half an hour per colour will do for the stars and then you hit it with a dedicated Ha filter. Trying to haul in a faint Ha target takes forever through a red filter. I think it does need knocking on the head, and hard, this idea that OSC is faster. The fastest of all is L with binned RGB, though depending on your sampling rate the price in terms of star quality can be significant. OSC is less efficient because you have to capture colour throughout the run even when you don't need to. The whole point of LRGB is that you capture as much colour as you need to and then you capture all colours simultaneously in a luminance filter. The whole point of LRGB is to save time.*

The real difference is that at least you get a finished product, albeit a poor one, if you are cut off by clouds with a colour camera. This I can sympathise with. On the other hand if you use a mono you can catch Ha in the moon time when Murphy arranges for clear skies...

I spent the first few years with the earlier version of the 314L, the 16HR. I've also imaged with the 314L. I think it's incredibly easy to describe; it's only limitation is its chip size. That apart it's as close to perfect as you are ever likely to meet. Quiet, sensitive. There you go. You can put a bit of field of view back by using a short focal length telescope. The camera is more important than the optics.

I don't see DSLRs as being a good way to capture colour for a mono L or narrowband image either, to be honest. DSLRs are, for some reason, generally poor at acquiring star colour and this is so important for a good result. Put a 314L behind a fast F ratio and it will sing.

Olly

* There are processing techniques for boosting the colour if you don't have enough to 'fill' the luminance you've captured. Briefly you apply a little luminance to the colour, lift the saturation, blur or otherwise noise-reduce, flatten and then re-apply with a bit more luminance this time and so on. If it's good enough for Robert Gendler...

[Astroblagger]

iv read that thread mono vrs OSC, my head is totally spinning now!! obviously i would go for a mono as they are more sensitive my only concern would be going out and not getting the full LRGB and be left without an image at the end of the night. if a OSC CCD isnt much better than my modded dslr then there really not much point in getting a OSC CCD.

[Gina]

IMO there isn't any point in buying an OSC CCD camera. A mono CCD and LRGB for full spectrum objects like galaxies and stars is actually faster than OSC because the mono version is much more sensitive - the colour filter array stops a lot of photons. As for DSLRs. I was amazed at the difference when I got my 314L+ mono CCD camera. I though I was doing quite well with my double barrelled 1100D (modded and cooled) setup but the single 314L+ really knocks it into a cocked hat. The . The sensitivity is many times the DSLR and no noise - that's right NO NOISE. Two things contribute to the difference in sensitivity - mono v OSC makes a BIG difference and the sensitivity and dynamic range is also far superior. I think I wasted a lot of valuable imaging time with my DSLR experiments but at the time I couldn't run to a CCD and also I wanted to prove a point - that you could get good images with a DSLR. Well I guess you can certainly get good images with modded and cooled DSLR but for really great images you need a mono CCD. Also, I'm a pig-headed old so-and-so

[Sp@ce_d]

iv read that thread mono vrs OSC, my head is totally spinning now!! obviously i would go for a mono as they are more sensitive my only concern would be going out and not getting the full LRGB and be left without an image at the end of the night. if a OSC CCD isnt much better than my modded dslr then there really not much point in getting a OSC CCD.

Of course Olly IS totally right about this, he knows what he's talking about.. There's no doubt in my mind CCD over DSLR performance. what I was describing is the frustration of UK skies and as you have said, never completing the set. I've tried to get around this by using my DSLR as a backup to try and at least get some complete colour to supplement if all else fails. I wouldn't have completed (if you can any of my images complete!) anything so far since I've had the Atik if I hadn't. If finances allowed of course I'd have a multiple shooter with Mono CCD's but in the real world we have to make the best out of what we can afford, so why not use gear I've already got. Surely better than nothing?

[Sp@ce_d]

I think I should also clarify, I'm talking about a mono CCD as primary capture, no question. However, looking at your kit list you could try what I'm doing with a twin shooter. Although I'm not sure about the eq5.. I use the eq6.

[Gina]

Of course Olly IS totally right about this, he knows what he's talking about.. There's no doubt in my mind CCD over DSLR performance. what I was describing is the frustration of UK skies and as you have said, never completing the set. I've tried to get around this by using my DSLR as a backup to try and at least get some complete colour to supplement if all else fails. I wouldn't have completed (if you can any of my images complete!) anything so far since I've had the Atik if I hadn't. If finances allowed of course I'd have a multiple shooter with Mono CCD's but in the real world we have to make the best out of what we can afford, so why not use gear I've already got. Surely better than nothing?

I see your point and that's what I thought until I got my 3134L+ and filter wheel plus filters. Now I find I can get a better image in a few hours with this than my modded and cooled DSLR. With the Evostar ED80 and Baader LRGB filters, I find the focus sufficiently parfocal to run L, R, G, B, L, R. G, B etc. sequence with much shorter subs than the DSLR. When clouds come back I have full colour image components. I have run dual cameras but the occasions this is relevant are rare - I only have one scope though several lenses. That's 314L+ on the scope and DSLR wide field - I haven't yet run 314L+ with lens and DSLR on scope. It may be that for combination Ha plus RGB, it migh prove useful. I've only just got 314L+ with lens properly set up and only had a few hours imaging time with it.

[Sp@ce_d]

Not wanting to hijack the thread so I will just say to the OP that from my experience, (I discussed the same thing on here, mono v OSC, before I made the jump and took Olly's and the others advice) moving on from a DSLR to a 314L+ mono is a no brainer. It just brings with it a few more things to consider when building colour images that as a DSLR user I didn't have to think about before.

[ollypenrice]

Not wanting to hijack the thread so I will just say to the OP that from my experience, (I discussed the same thing on here, mono v OSC, before I made the jump and took Olly's and the others advice) moving on from a DSLR to a 314L+ mono is a no brainer. It just brings with it a few more things to consider when building colour images that as a DSLR user I didn't have to think about before.

That's doubtless the case! On the other hand when I see people imaging with DSLRs it sends me into a spin of pure confusion, all those scrolling sequences to remember and things to de-activate and so on. EEEK!

I guess it's what you're used to.

Gina's L R G B repeat sequence is what a number of people do. I saw MartinB doing that here and I can see myself trying it. It does bring a lot of psychological comfort and since we're doing this for pleasure that matters. However, the mono does have this secondary advantage; you can shoot red and green when the object is low, red because it suffers less atmoshperic dispersion and green because you're going to throw most of it away . Blue is best shot high up as is lum, and on nights of poor seeing you can go for colour even though Lum would take a hammering. (This matters at longer FLs and far less at short ones. There are many nights when there is no point in taking L with Yves' 14 inch.)

Olly

[Astroblagger]

There is alot to ponder on this subject, but i will take onboard the views of people who know what they are talking about and who have used mono cameras, i already have a filter wheel and Astronomic LRGB filters, so i may just get a 2nd hand Atick 314L+ use it for one season, see how i get on with it, if im struggling to get any images or dont get on with it, then sell it on next summer, or keep it never to go back to OSC, who knows but thats my plan!