Betelgeuse ?

[orions belt]

Hello people I occasionally look at orion (weather permitting ) and one star keeps attracting my gaze toward's it and that is Betelgeuse, I know the star is dying and when it eventually dies it will be an awesome sight and go onto creating more stars. Well my question is this is their any evidence for roughly when this red star will die and vanish.

Feedback much appreciated.

Thanks.

[cantab]

Within the next million years. Honestly I think it's an unlikely candidate to go supernova in our lifetime. It's big and late in its life but seems basically stable. Compare that to Eta Carinae which underwent its "supernova impostor" outburst, that seems more like a star that might go at any time.

[VigdisVZ]

Won't somebody think of Orion

Seriously though, that would be a privilegie to experience. Everyone will start to whine about seeing after a while though, since the super nova doesn't set like the moon does

[LukeSkywatcher]

Its a variable star, coming to the end of its life but i seriously doubt if it will die within our lives.

[lukebl]

... since the super nova doesn't set like the moon does

Eh? Betelgeuse rises and sets just like any other star. Depending on your latitude, of course, and if it goes pop during the northern summer or autumn, it won't affect your evening's viewing!

[TonyD]

Eh? Betelgeuse rises and sets just like any other star. Depending on your latitude, of course, and if it goes pop during the northern summer or autumn, it won't affect your evening's viewing!

I think Carl meant that the moon moves around the sky but Betelgeuse going supernova would mean that all decent observations in (certainly that part of) the sky will be ruined for a good many years.

[AndrewG]

I think Carl meant that the moon moves around the sky but Betelgeuse going supernova would mean that all decent observations in (certainly that part of) the sky will be ruined for a good many years.

In that case it's most likely to pop when I eventually get a clear night !!!!

[ronin]

I think Carl meant that the moon moves around the sky but Betelgeuse going supernova would mean that all decent observations in (certainly that part of) the sky will be ruined for a good many years.

I bet no-one would actually consider looking at the super nova remnant and their evolution. Far too boring a thing to do.

Everyone will just complain about it being there and so damn close.

Real bummer eh?

[adrianelliott]

I'm sure that this has been asked a million times but what is the established pronunciation of this star? Bettel - Guzz?

Also, out of interest has anyone seen an artists impression of what the Crab nebula would have looked to astronomers when the supernova was first observed?

[TonyD]

wasn't it Beetle Juice or is that a terribly old and tired joke

<sound of tumbleweed blowing across a dusty desert with a squeaking gasoline station sign rocking backward and forward in the breeze and an old man sitting out in the porch smoking a cigarette>

[moriniboy]

It may have already gone pop it just takes 642.5 years for the light to get here!

[Zakalwe]

Betelgeuse going supernova would mean that all decent observations in (certainly that part of) the sky will be ruined for a good many years.

Ruined??

Strange choice of words.

[TonyD]

Ruined??

Strange choice of words.

That's the whining that Carl was saying people might complain about. Personally, I'd feel honoured if it went supernovae in my lifetime!

Tony

[Josh Wilson]

I'm sure that this has been asked a million times but what is the established pronunciation of this star? Bettel - Guzz?

Also, out of interest has anyone seen an artists impression of what the Crab nebula would have looked to astronomers when the supernova was first observed?

I've wondered the pronunciation of stars for many long times, but I thin if you read this topic you will find that the phrase "To each his own" very well describes the pronunciation of stars.

As to what astronomers saw when the Crab exploded? Nothing. At least not through a telescope. The telescope, much less any optical device for all I know, didn't exist in 1054 and all that was known about the heavens was learned without any optical aid whatsoever.

[Josh Wilson]

Betelgeuse may have very well already gone supernova, but the light from it hasn't reached us yet. I think it's supposed to reach us within the next million years though. .

PS: What shall we name the great Betelgeuse supernova remnant?

Josh

[DirkSteele]

It is remarkable that a lot of the details about Betelgeuse remain under debate, including crucially its mass and exact distance. It is generally agreed that the mass is in excess of 10 times that of the sun, which means it is likely going to be a Type II supernova. Unlike the standard candle Type 1a supernovae, the maximum brightness varies but the average absolute magnitude is -16 to -17 (though some have reached -22). The Milky Way has an absolute magnitude of about -20.5

Absolute magnitude is the value of celestial objects apparent magnitude if the object was 10 parsecs from the earth (1 parsec = 3.2616 light years). The absolute magnitude brightness relationship is the same as visual magnitude. A factor of 2.512 ratio of brightness corresponds to a difference of 1.0 in magnitude.

There is a simple equation that relates absolute magnitude to apparent magnitude:

M_abs = m_ap – 5 * ((log₁₀ d) – 1)

Where

M_abs = Absolute magnitude

m_ap = apparent magnitude

d = distance in parsecs

We can simply rearrange this equation to solve for apparent magnitude as we believe we have a value for absolute magnitude of a type II supernova.

m_ap = M_abs – 5* (1 + Log₁₀ d)

Taking the accepted distance of 640 light years (approx 196 parsecs) we get a value of -10 to -11. It would likely reach that peak brightness within 15 to 20 days and would decay to 10% of peak brightness over the next 50 to 150 days. Definitely bright enough to see during the day and close to full moon brightness (-12.7 is the average full moon). So it looks like that the moon will have a rival in brightness when Betelgeuse does go supernova. In which case I suggest everyone get set for a couple of months of planetary only observing.

If it turned out to be a bright Type IIn (-22 absolute magnitude), the apparent magnitude would exceed -15!

How about the "Hunter Nebula" for the remnant?

[ollypenrice]

Whoa, a supernova at the proximity of Betelgeuse would indeed reach a phenomenal brightness but would not resemble the moon, which has a huge surface area on the sky. The Chinese astronomers/astrologers (Down, Boy!!!) saw it as a 'guest star' and it was visible during the day (think Venus) but that is far from saying that it brought moon like brightness to the night sky. They didn't call it a Guest Moon. It remained small.

Most of your night sky would be unaffected. Who stops observing the Pleiades because Jupiter is nearby? Point sources and moon like sources cannot be compared in terms of subjecive impression.

Olly

[DirkSteele]

Assume you are referring to the supernova of 1054? The result of which we see as the Crab Nebula today? Estimate distance is around 2,000 parsecs and it peaked (estimated by Simon Milton in 1978) at mag -6 which is around 4x that of Venus peak magnitude. Very much a guest star. I would suggest that something of the order of magnitude -12 might have been given an altogether different name.

Certainly was not my intention to make my estimated numbers a direct parallel to the moon, but it helps to put in context I think, given Venus is usually the brightest thing we enjoy in the night sky (other than the moon).....Though roll on comet Ison.

[ollypenrice]

Assume you are referring to the supernova of 1054? The result of which we see as the Crab Nebula today? Estimate distance is around 2,000 parsecs and it peaked (estimated by Simon Milton in 1978) at mag -6 which is around 4x that of Venus peak magnitude. Very much a guest star. I would suggest that something of the order of magnitude -12 might have been given an altogether different name.

Certainly was not my intention to make my estimated numbers a direct parallel to the moon, but it helps to put in context I think, given Venus is usually the brightest thing we enjoy in the night sky (other than the moon).....Though roll on comet Ison.

Yes, or at least to the supernova whose light reached us in 1054. You may be right but I think that an intense point source would remain effectively a point source. The area of illumination of a source is terribly important in defining its visual impression. It's an interesting question and I don't know the answer.

Olly

[Twiggles]

Very informative..and detailed! As for names...considering its location in the constellation art, wonder if it gets an amusing name..

[lukebl]

..... PS: What shall we name the great Betelgeuse supernova remnant?

Why rename it? Just call it the Betelgeuse Nebula. To give it a different name would be denying its long heritage!

[Ptarmigan]

Ever since I learned that Betelgeuse is on the brink of going SN, subject titles like this in astro forums make me jump ! "Oh rats" I think, "it went SN last night and I missed it cos it was cloudy" !!

PS: What shall we name the great Betelgeuse supernova remnant?

Patrick1

or SPM1

or Caldwell1, - oh bother that is already taken ,,

maybe it will look like a humungous monocle ,,

[DirkSteele]

Yes, or at least to the supernova whose light reached us in 1054. You may be right but I think that an intense point source would remain effectively a point source. The area of illumination of a source is terribly important in defining its visual impression. It's an interesting question and I don't know the answer.

Olly

Very interesting question indeed. Have to confess I have not really given a great deal of consideration to that point (pun intended ). Time for further investigation....

[ollypenrice]

Very interesting question indeed. Have to confess I have not really given a great deal of consideration to that point (pun intended ). Time for further investigation....

I did look at this in my astronomical studies some years ago. Maybe Kauffmann has something to say on it but I'm sure I remember a discussion of why the Chinese saw a point and not a quasi moonlit night.

Olly

[DaveHKent]

Every night during 'Orion season', I look up just to make sure it is still there.

I have already agreed with the missus that if it does go pop in my lifetime, and it is not visible from the UK, I will jump in my car or the next plane and go asap to somewhere where you can see it. I think the fact the odds are against this happening is why she agreed!